What has been the fallout - if any - on the EMR "Connect" services to Corby?

[Starmill]

Erm, so what are you suggesting? Services which currently run fast to Leicester start stopping at a new station for Desborough (population 10,000) but *not* at either Market Harborough or Kettering ? (The latter being a town of over 60,000)

No. Diverting London to Corby services to Leicester as I said. There's no other realistic way to provide through services again between Luton or Bedford and Leicester (not that I'm suggesting that this is critical, but if one were to accept the desire for it).

There's essentially no inward demand to Corby, and not much from it either. It can be easily accomodated now with a four car shuttle.

 

[A0]

No. Diverting London to Corby services to Leicester as I said.

Which also serve Kettering at present. So there *would* be a disbenefit to Kettering and definitely to Corby which would presumably lose 50% of its London service?

 

[Starmill]

Which also serve Kettering at present. So there *would* be a disbenefit to Kettering and definitely to Corby which would presumably lose 50% of its London service?

There would be no disbenefit to Kettering by diverting the Corby services to Leicester. I'm not sure why you keep saying this but I think I've explained perfectly clearly. Does Corby need any through services to London at all? It's not especially busy and connections to fast services at Kettering are probably preferred over the through stopping service anyway...

 

[A0]

There would be no disbenefit to Kettering by diverting the Corby services to Leicester. I'm not sure why you keep saying this but I think I've explained perfectly clearly.

Clearly not, because it makes no sense.

Does Corby need any through services to London at all? It's not especially busy and connections to fast services at Kettering are probably preferred over the through stopping service anyway...

If you think truncating the Corby service to a shuttle to / from Kettering will be successful, I think you're massively wide of the mark. So too do Network Rail who have spent *alot* of money redoubling and wiring the Corby line.

In 10 years Corby had gone from 0 to 300,000 station users and that was on an hourly service. The last 2 years figures are screwed due to Covid, but given both Wellingborough and Kettering get about 1 m users a year, I would fully expect Corby to be getting near to their figures in the next decade with 2tph and the house building which is taking place there.

Desborough on the other hand would probably max out at 200,000.

 

[Starmill]

Clearly not, because it makes no sense.

In what are you still confused? You don't say.

If you think truncating the Corby service to a shuttle to / from Kettering will be successful, I think you're massively wide of the mark. So too do Network Rail who have spent *alot* of money redoubling and wiring the Corby line

Sigh. Once again, they were required to construct this infrastructure in order to provide the capacity for Bedford and Luton to London office commuters. It had precious little to do with Corby itself! 300k is tiny compared to the number of people who previously travelled between Bedford or Luton and London.

Once again, there is next to no inward demand to Corby and no onwards connections are available. There is however significant inward demand to Leicester, with many onwards connections.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I wonder whether the best solution would be something like: Divert the current London-Corby services to run to Leicester AND extend 2tph of the fastest Thameslink Bedford services to Corby. That way you largely solve the connectivity problems to get to stations North of Leicester. Wellingborough people become happier because they have a more frequent service, compensating for the loss of intercity services. The only disadvantage is, Corby people will get a slower service to London. But that's probably a case of, benefits outweigh the disbenefits.

Of course, that relies on sufficient stock being available - which is problematic I know, especially as you'd currently need bi-modes to get to Leicester.

 

[Magdalia]

There are 20 trains missing in the 2hr peak through the core, few of which are on the same diagram.

Just because 20 trains are not doing through the core does not mean that they do not exist, and do not take up class 700 resources.

In particular the Cambridge-Kings Cross service does not touch the core but uses 8 units. There's also a few Orpingtons that reverse at Blackfriars.

Once you take these into account you have found about half of your so called missing trains.

 

[A0]

Sigh. Once again, they were required to construct this infrastructure in order to provide the capacity for Bedford and Luton to London office commuters. It had precious little to do with Corby itself! 300k is tiny compared to the number of people who previously travelled between Bedford or Luton and London.

Not so - Corby didn't have to be re-doubled, there was space at Kettering to hold a unit for example.

300k is from a figure of 0 in 2009 and was on an at best hourly service.

Once again, there is next to no inward demand to Corby and no onwards connections are available. There is however significant inward demand to Leicester, with many onwards connections.

The "significant inward demand" to Leicester though *wasn't* coming from Luton, Bedford or Wellingborough as any one who saw the numbers boarding northbound trains at those stations could see.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There appear to be 2tph from St Pancras to Corby. Why not simply divert one of those to Leicester once electrified? Doesn't have to be both. The second one, if it's felt necessary, could be a shuttle back to Kettering to connect with the one back from Leicester or one of the ICs, sort-of-a-la-Windermere.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There appear to be 2tph from St Pancras to Corby. Why not simply divert one of those to Leicester once electrified? Doesn't have to be both. The second one, if it's felt necessary, could be a shuttle back to Kettering to connect with the one back from Leicester or one of the ICs, sort-of-a-la-Windermere.

This was going to be my suggestion exactly.

People have been talking about "the" MML problem, eg speed and/or lack of a fast platform at Bedford on the up - I'd say both a part of the problem, sure. But the other 'speciality' of the MML as it is now is that the Corby tail is wagging the MML dog.

Having re-opened Corby (very good!),and then decided on electrification of the MML (very good!), the powers at be could not leave Corby as a diesel island (understandably). So they began electrification but then stopped it at Corby (very bad for almost everyone bar Corby-ites, and MML long distance passengers who don't want the intermediate stations).

This thread has been comparing the MML with the ECML, WCML and even to Bedwyn - but while some comparisons are valid, each line has its unique characteristics. And on the MML one of those is the number and size of towns on the line twixt Leicester and London - a whole string of them which are neither monster traffic generators (at least if you discount London traffic) but nor are they dismissive numbers (as per, say, Arelsey-Biggleswade-Sandy-St Neots on the outer suburbans of the ECML for traffic heading north). Towns which, historically, at least for as long as most remember, have been well connected by a service that has been considered Inter-City standard (of the day) and typically fed into a fast Derby/Nottingham - Chesterfield-Sheffield at Leicester.

The Corby 'tail' is now wagging and broken that traditional linkage, bar a couple of very early morning services and Sunday mornings.

 

[43096]

There appear to be 2tph from St Pancras to Corby. Why not simply divert one of those to Leicester once electrified? Doesn't have to be both. The second one, if it's felt necessary, could be a shuttle back to Kettering to connect with the one back from Leicester or one of the ICs, sort-of-a-la-Windermere.

That’s the obvious solution once wires get to Leicester. It’s unfortunate that it’s both Nottinghams that call at Kettering, it would have been better if the slower Sheffield had been a Kettering call instead of one Nottingham.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I have great difficulty in understanding why so many seem to be making such a mountain out of the Corby molehill.

(To be quite clear, as a regular traveler between the Hope Valley and Corby I am well used to changing three times - at Sheffield, Leicester and Kettering - and see plenty of evidence of the relatively modest amount of ‘northbound intermediate’ business when compared with London traffic.)

Bedford, Kettering and Leicester are not exactly difficult or confusing stations to change at. We are not talking Edinburgh Waverley, Leeds or Stratford!

Unless someone can come up with some genuine details of the supposed ‘loss’ of northbound business and First Class revenue from Wellingborough, etc. I will continue to believe the evidence of my own eyes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(To be quite clear, as a regular traveler between the Hope Valley and Corby I am well used to changing three times - at Sheffield, Leicester and Kettering - and see plenty of evidence of the relatively modest amount of ‘northbound intermediate’ business when compared with London traffic.)

You don't think that the lack of traffic is because it's on the M1 because changing 3 times is a pain and quite likely to result in a disrupted journey? I doubt I would do that, I'd drive. Clearly London traffic will always be the massive majority on any route, but most people won't consider a journey with that many changes at all. One is probably the most that most people will countenance, maybe two at a push.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It’s unfortunate that it’s both Nottinghams that call at Kettering, it would have been better if the slower Sheffield had been a Kettering call instead of one Nottingham.

The problem with doing that is you lose the regular every-30-minute frequency London - Kettering - Market Harborough- Leicester. Depending on how the precise timings work out, you'd risk that corridor turning into 15-minute then 45-minute gap, with only one train an hour instead of 2 trains an hour making a decent connection with the Corby services at Kettering.

 

[A0]

You don't think that the lack of traffic is because it's on the M1 because changing 3 times is a pain and quite likely to result in a disrupted journey? I doubt I would do that, I'd drive. Clearly London traffic will always be the massive majority on any route, but most people won't consider a journey with that many changes at all. One is probably the most that most people will countenance, maybe two at a push.

Yet if you were travelling from Leighton Buzzard or Bletchley to somewhere in Greater Manchester that *isn't* Stockport or Piccadilly you'll be changing 3 times - once at Milton Keynes for the Manchester service, once (or more) at Piccadilly and beyond.

Same if you're heading into London unless your ultimate destination happens to be on a tube line which is also at your arrival point in London - which if you are arriving in Kings Cross, Paddington or Liverpool St isn't too bad whereas if you arrive in Marylebone, Fenchurch Street or even Euston is a different prospect.

The train from Bedford - Sheffield takes 2h - 2h 10m *even with* two changes. Good luck in driving that - in anything vaguely approaching 2 hours - Google Maps reckons ~2h 30 mins and from personal experience you'd be pushing it to do Northampton to Sheffield in 2 hours and that's with Northampton being actually 'on' the M1 not over half a dozen miles away as Bedford is.

 

[Starmill]

Unless someone can come up with some genuine details of the supposed ‘loss’ of northbound business and First Class revenue from Wellingborough, etc.

Northbound business is relatively marginal. However you'll just have to believe us that First Class revenue is nearly zero which frankly shouldn't be too difficult given that it used to be quite plush in First Class but there's no longer any First Class provided.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==

Not so - Corby didn't have to be re-doubled, there was space at Kettering to hold a unit for example.

300k is from a figure of 0 in 2009 and was on an at best hourly service.



The "significant inward demand" to Leicester though *wasn't* coming from Luton, Bedford or Wellingborough as any one who saw the numbers boarding northbound trains at those stations could see.

I'm sorry but you're continuing to fundamentally misunderstand. Where would they have got a diesel train from to work Kettering to Corby if they hadn't electrified it? Doubling really had to come before electrification if it was ever going to happen for obvious reasons. It's certainly not because Corby trains are busy north of Bedford.

 

[A0]

Northbound business is relatively marginal. However you'll just have to believe us that First Class revenue is nearly zero which frankly shouldn't be too difficult given that it used to be quite plush in First Class but there's no longer any First Class provided.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==


I'm sorry but you're continuing to fundamentally misunderstand. Where would they have got a diesel train from to work Kettering to Corby if they hadn't electrified it? Doubling really had to come before electrification if it was ever going to happen for obvious reasons. It's certainly not because Corby trains are busy north of Bedford.

And just because you keep repeating that does not demonstrate there was "significant inward demand to Leicester" from Luton or Bedford - how about you try providing evidence that there was and also evidence that such traffic has moved to other forms of travel, which seems to be the basis of your demand to remove services from Corby.

Electrifying Corby was always on the cards - so no need for a diesel unit. What possibly wasn't needed was the re-doubling from Kettering to Corby if all that was ever envisaged was an hourly service. The shift to a half hourly service is what necessitated the doubling. It was just about possible to send 2 tph up between Kettering and Corby on 1 track, but that then left little or no room for freight or any other diversions (bearing in mind Harringworth is the diversion if Kettering - Leicester is closed for any reason).

 

[Starmill]

And just because you keep repeating that does not demonstrate there was "significant inward demand to Leicester" from Luton or Bedford - how about you try providing evidence that there was and also evidence that such traffic has moved to other forms of travel, which seems to be the basis of your demand to remove services from Corby.

I never said that the demand was from Luton and Bedford. Simply that if you accept the frequent opinion that there is, this is the only realistic way to provide it. Leicester is a major British city and has many connections. It is obvious that it is a significant destination for travel from across the country. Corby is not a common destination for anyone other than people who live in it or nearby. Again this is all fairly obvious.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==

Electrifying Corby was always on the cards - so no need for a diesel unit. What possibly wasn't needed was the re-doubling from Kettering to Corby if all that was ever envisaged was an hourly service. The shift to a half hourly service is what necessitated the doubling. It was just about possible to send 2 tph up between Kettering and Corby on 1 track, but that then left little or no room for freight or any other diversions (bearing in mind Harringworth is the diversion

Doubling had to come before electrification or essentially the opportunity was lost for a generation.

 

[DelayRepay]

The train from Bedford - Sheffield takes 2h - 2h 10m *even with* two changes. Good luck in driving that - in anything vaguely approaching 2 hours - Google Maps reckons ~2h 30 mins and from personal experience you'd be pushing it to do Northampton to Sheffield in 2 hours and that's with Northampton being actually 'on' the M1 not over half a dozen miles away as Bedford is.

That's true, but when I go to Sheffield (which I do often), my journey doesn't start or end at the station. So if you add on the time to get to the station and the time to get to my final destination at the other end, the car is more competitive time-wise.

Everyone is different, but my reason for travelling by train is not cost or time saving, it's that I like to relax, read a book etc. I find it more pleasant than driving. When you factor in the need for three changes, the train looks less attractive. When you factor in the fact that I cannot travel in first class for much of the journey, it looks even less attractive. And, to be honest if the reason for using the train was time or cost, the difference is negligible anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet if you were travelling from Leighton Buzzard or Bletchley to somewhere in Greater Manchester that *isn't* Stockport or Piccadilly you'll be changing 3 times - once at Milton Keynes for the Manchester service, once (or more) at Piccadilly and beyond.

Funny you should mention that - I generally don't - I generally take a taxi to MKC, as it is less likely to result in the journey being messed up right at the start.

 

[A0]

That's true, but when I go to Sheffield (which I do often), my journey doesn't start or end at the station. So if you add on the time to get to the station and the time to get to my final destination at the other end, the car is more competitive time-wise.

Everyone is different, but my reason for travelling by train is not cost or time saving, it's that I like to relax, read a book etc. I find it more pleasant than driving. When you factor in the need for three changes, the train looks less attractive. When you factor in the fact that I cannot travel in first class for much of the journey, it looks even less attractive. And, to be honest if the reason for using the train was time or cost, the difference is negligible anyway.

Bit in bold - a point I quite often make when people are on these boards demanding "modal shift" and saying how people shouldn't be driving from, for example, Northampton to Manchester when they could use the train, conveniently ignoring that most people don't live on top of their local station and that their ultimate destination may not be the city centre terminus their train arrives at - but I'm usually told I'm wrong........

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==

When you factor in the fact that I cannot travel in first class for much of the journey, it looks even less attractive. And, to be honest if the reason for using the train was time or cost, the difference is negligible anyway.

Erm - if you're doing Bedford - Sheffield for example the only bit you *can't* travel 1st class in is Bedford - Kettering.

Bedford - Sheffield is about 100 miles, Bedford Kettering is about 20 miles. So by my maths that means about 80% does have a 1st class availability ?

 

[DelayRepay]

Erm - if you're doing Bedford - Sheffield for example the only bit you *can't* travel 1st class in is Bedford - Kettering.

Bedford - Sheffield is about 100 miles, Bedford Kettering is about 20 miles. So by my maths that means about 80% does have a 1st class availability ?

Fair enough, I mis-calculated. But I would still feel ripped off buying a 1st class ticket and not getting first class until Kettering. So I'd have to buy two tickets. More hassle!

I do however accept my case is fairly niche - and unlikely to be worth accommodating at the expense of bigger passenger flows between other stations.

 

[A0]

Fair enough, I mis-calculated. But I would still feel ripped off buying a 1st class ticket and not getting first class until Kettering. So I'd have to buy two tickets. More hassle!

But then again there are no shortage of "suburban" stations which only see trains with just second class which have exactly the same situation as you in that only part of their journey will offer 1st class.

Not sure you have to "buy" 2 tickets - online sites should be able to accommodate as a single transaction.

 

[Envy123]

Class 360s don't have 1st class? Not even the GTR style first class seen on the 700s?

 

[Starmill]

Class 360s don't have 1st class? Not even the GTR style first class seen on the 700s?

They have Greater Anglia's first class but it has been debaged. It's not like on a 700 because it's the same seats, just with armrests. There are only eight seats too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==

Bit in bold - a point I quite often make when people are on these boards demanding "modal shift" and saying how people shouldn't be driving from, for example, Northampton to Manchester when they could use the train, conveniently ignoring that most people don't live on top of their local station and that their ultimate destination may not be the city centre terminus their train arrives at - but I'm usually told I'm wrong........

To be fair this is a very easy problem to solve and has been for years. Cheap, frequent bus services are the answer. The cost of providing or subsidising those is vastly lower than anything on rails.

 

[Envy123]

They have Greater Anglia's first class but it has been debaged. It's not like on a 700 because it's the same seats, just with armrests. There are only eight seats too.

That seems even worse than the 700s. At least you get a slightly comfier seat.

 

[A0]

To be fair this is a very easy problem to solve and has been for years. Cheap, frequent bus services are the answer. The cost of providing or subsidising those is vastly lower than anything on rails.

But don't pretend it will achieve "modal shift" - to give a practical example, from my house I can drive and be on the M1 heading north in 10 minutes, the bus to the town centre will take 3 times that. I'm not sure why I should extend my journey time by 20-30 minutes just to tick a "modal shift" box some seem intent on pursuing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair this is a very easy problem to solve and has been for years. Cheap, frequent bus services are the answer. The cost of providing or subsidising those is vastly lower than anything on rails.

Cheap, frequent, integrated bus services. It's the bit in bold that the UK continually fails to do despite it having the potential to wonderfully complement rail use. The Welsh seem to be heading the right way, though...

 

[Envy123]

Cheap, frequent, integrated bus services. It's the bit in bold that the UK continually fails to do despite it having the potential to wonderfully complement rail use. The Welsh seem to be heading the right way, though...

Where I am, bus services are very poorly integrated with the train. Hatfield, St Albans and Peterborough, from my experience, are way better at it.

 

[flitwickbeds]

As I said earlier in this thread, while accepting it's a niche scenario, I now drive between Flitwick and Market Harborough as what was one change at Bedford is now 2 changes.

Is there anywhere else on the network where two stations, 10 miles apart, with just 3 stations inbetween and on a straight piece of track with no major junctions, require 3 trains to get between?