What has been the fallout - if any - on the EMR "Connect" services to Corby?

[baz962]

Bit in bold - a point I quite often make when people are on these boards demanding "modal shift" and saying how people shouldn't be driving from, for example, Northampton to Manchester when they could use the train, conveniently ignoring that most people don't live on top of their local station and that their ultimate destination may not be the city centre terminus their train arrives at - but I'm usually told I'm wrong........

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==



Erm - if you're doing Bedford - Sheffield for example the only bit you *can't* travel 1st class in is Bedford - Kettering.

Bedford - Sheffield is about 100 miles, Bedford Kettering is about 20 miles. So by my maths that means about 80% does have a 1st class availability ?

Bedford Sheffield on the railway is nearer 110 miles so I'm happy to tell you that they get even more percent in first class.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==

As I said earlier in this thread, while accepting it's a niche scenario, I now drive between Flitwick and Market Harborough as what was one change at Bedford is now 2 changes.

Is there anywhere else on the network where two stations, 10 miles apart, with just 3 stations inbetween and on a straight piece of track with no major junctions, require 3 trains to get between?

Which two stations are ten miles apart with three stations in between.?

 

[flitwickbeds]

Bedford Sheffield on the railway is nearer 110 miles so I'm happy to tell you that they get even more percent in first class.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2022 ==


Which two stations are ten miles apart with three stations in between.?

Flitwick and Market Harborough

Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering in between

Now requires 3 trains/2 changes, at Bedford and Kettering, instead of the one (at Bedford) it used to.

(Edit - sorry, typo in original post, FORTY not TEN miles apart!)

 

[baz962]

Flitwick and Market Harborough

Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering in between

Now requires 3 trains/2 changes, at Bedford and Kettering, instead of the one (at Bedford) it used to.

Ain't ten miles. Flitwick is just over 40 from st pancras and market harborough is 83

 

[flitwickbeds]

Ain't ten miles. Flitwick is just over 40 from st pancras and market harborough is 83

Yes sorry see correction above which I realised and added just before you replied!

I still can't think of anywhere 5 stations apart on a straight line which requires a change at 40% of the stations

 

[baz962]

Yes sorry see correction above which I realised and added just before you replied!

I still can't think of anywhere 5 stations apart on a straight line which requires a change at 40% of the stations

You were right the first time on stations though. Three not five .

 

[flitwickbeds]

You were right the first time on stations though. Three not five .

3 inbetween, 5 apart ☺

 

[Watershed]

I still can't think of anywhere 5 stations apart on a straight line which requires a change at 40% of the stations

Stapleton Road to Pilning requires 2 changes (Bristol TM and Severn Tunnel Junction/Newport), despite there being just 2 intermediate stations. But I'll grant you that that's due to exceptional circumstances!

 

[baz962]

I just don't get all this moaning about a couple of changes. And I'm not just sticking up for the industry because I work in it , but I guess I'm just a patient person that doesn't understand the hurry with everything. An example . I live on the edge of Bedford but used to be a 30 minutes walk to the station. My mum lives in Hemel Hempstead and I can drive there in 40 minutes for about a fiver in petrol in my smaller car but I sometimes walk to the station in around 30 mins , get a train to bletchley and then bletchley to Hemel Hempstead . Quickest time with change I can see is 1 hour 20 and then a 45 minute walk to her house so a 2 hours and 30 journey and the priv tickets are roughly the same price , so I save nothing. I would rather take a train to Sheffield than drive , even with several changes and if I paid full price.

 

[flitwickbeds]

I just don't get all this moaning about a couple of changes. And I'm not just sticking up for the industry because I work in it , but I guess I'm just a patient person that doesn't understand the hurry with everything. An example . I live on the edge of Bedford but used to be a 30 minutes walk to the station. My mum lives in Hemel Hempstead and I can drive there in 40 minutes for about a fiver in petrol in my smaller car but I sometimes walk to the station in around 30 mins , get a train to bletchley and then bletchley to Hemel Hempstead . Quickest time with change I can see is 1 hour 20 and then a 45 minute walk to her house so a 2 hours and 30 journey and the priv tickets are roughly the same price , so I save nothing. I would rather take a train to Sheffield than drive , even with several changes and if I paid full price.

I think the point is that they were operating one way for decades, then got taken away in the name of improvements. I'm quite patient too and value a comfortable journey over time - for example pre-pandemic when travelling peak time I would often choose to take an all stopper from London, change at Luton and then on to Flitwick as the journey was more comfortable (less overcrowding). That added a change to my journey and maybe 20 minutes.

But I don't consider going one stop, changing, going 2 stops, waiting, then going one more stop a comfortable journey. The fact that I used to be able to do this in 1 change but now can't, is what makes me angry. When you consider that (apart from the one-station Corby branch) it's a straight line with no junctions, and 5 stations, 2 of which you have to get off a train and wait at, it just means driving is more comfortable for me. And that's before we start getting into people with suitcases, buggies, wheelchairs having to go up and down more stairs/lifts; or that the risk of disruption on each "leg" is increased in terms of late or missed connections.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I just happened to check Apsley to Long Buckby 'next journey'. Sure enough, two changes and three trains.

(Please don't get into a lengthy argument about precise distances and number of intermediate journeys. 'Triptychs' are not that unusual.)

 

[flitwickbeds]

I just happened to check Apsley to Long Buckby 'next journey'. Sure enough, two changes and three trains.

(Please don't get into a lengthy argument about precise distances and number of intermediate journeys. 'Triptychs' are not that unusual.)

The next 4 journeys, which takes us to a 1am departure tomorrow morning, are all 1 change.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think the point is that they were operating one way for decades, then got taken away in the name of improvements.

Sorry, but as a regular MML user for the past 27 years the various timetables and rolling stock on both longer distance and Thameslink services have been constantly changing.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Sorry, but as a regular MML user for the past 27 years the various timetables and rolling stock on both longer distance and Thameslink services have been constantly changing.

Yes, the times have obviously changed, but there has always (to my knowledge) been a direct train between Bedford and Market Harborough.

Yes, some trains skipped Bedford. Some trains skipped Market Harborough. Some trains skipped both. But - in my 20 year experience, until the changes about 3 years ago, there was a rrgular direct service between them.

 

[A0]

Yes, the times have obviously changed, but there has always (to my knowledge) been a direct train between Bedford and Market Harborough.

Yes, some trains skipped Bedford. Some trains skipped Market Harborough. Some trains skipped both. But - in my 20 year experience, until the changes about 3 years ago, there was a rrgular direct service between them.

There are loads of places which *used* to have direct services and now require a change - Welwyn GC and Hatfield for a number of years had Peterboro services, since the recent changes those stations only get Cambridge services meaning a chamge at Stevenage or Hitchin to get to the intermediate stations between Hitchin & Peterboro.

Northampton has lost both its direct links onto the Trent Valley *and* its faster Birmingham services (used to just stop Rugby, Coventry and B'ham International) with the latter replaced with multiple stops between Coventry & Birmingham.

Things change - and the timetable has been geared towards shifting as many people as possible to/from London because that's where the demand is. I don't ever recall seeimg more than a handful of people boarding a northbound train at Bedford and a number of those alighted at Wellingborough.

 

[bramling]

I just don't get all this moaning about a couple of changes. And I'm not just sticking up for the industry because I work in it , but I guess I'm just a patient person that doesn't understand the hurry with everything. An example . I live on the edge of Bedford but used to be a 30 minutes walk to the station. My mum lives in Hemel Hempstead and I can drive there in 40 minutes for about a fiver in petrol in my smaller car but I sometimes walk to the station in around 30 mins , get a train to bletchley and then bletchley to Hemel Hempstead . Quickest time with change I can see is 1 hour 20 and then a 45 minute walk to her house so a 2 hours and 30 journey and the priv tickets are roughly the same price , so I save nothing. I would rather take a train to Sheffield than drive , even with several changes and if I paid full price.

It’s okay if you have the time. But if someone wants to get from Harpenden to Sheffield and they need to get there by a certain time, one can see how the current setup would be pretty unattractive. But by the same token I can see why the current service is arranged as it is.

 

[baz962]

I think the point is that they were operating one way for decades, then got taken away in the name of improvements. I'm quite patient too and value a comfortable journey over time - for example pre-pandemic when travelling peak time I would often choose to take an all stopper from London, change at Luton and then on to Flitwick as the journey was more comfortable (less overcrowding). That added a change to my journey and maybe 20 minutes.

But I don't consider going one stop, changing, going 2 stops, waiting, then going one more stop a comfortable journey. The fact that I used to be able to do this in 1 change but now can't, is what makes me angry. When you consider that (apart from the one-station Corby branch) it's a straight line with no junctions, and 5 stations, 2 of which you have to get off a train and wait at, it just means driving is more comfortable for me. And that's before we start getting into people with suitcases, buggies, wheelchairs having to go up and down more stairs/lifts; or that the risk of disruption on each "leg" is increased in terms of late or missed connections.

It’s okay if you have the time. But if someone wants to get from Harpenden to Sheffield and they need to get there by a certain time, one can see how the current setup would be pretty unattractive. But by the same token I can see why the current service is arranged as it is.

Of course and very understandable if it's one of the first services of the day. If not then I, personally of course , would leave earlier. But there always will be people that need to be somewhere earlier than the train service starts. So unless the MML goes 24 hours , then someone will miss out.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Is there anywhere else on the network where two stations, 10 miles apart, with just 3 stations inbetween and on a straight piece of track with no major junctions, require 3 trains to get between?

Bearing in mind your later correction to 40 miles. These don't match your precise criteria, but off the top of my head, I think you'd need 2 changes for the following journeys if you wanted to do them without major doubling-back despite them being essentially each travelling along a single major line...

Brentwood to Stowmarket (a bit more than 40 miles)
Barnt Green to Tewkesbury (less than 40 miles)
Carpenders Park to Nuneaton (well over 40 miles)
Berrylands to Micheldever (or Winchester) (a bit over 40 miles)

Having said that, those are pretty niche suggestions, and I do agree with your main point that the MML timetable is uniquely bad for travel between significant destinations (St Albans to Leicester is probably a better example than Flitwick to Market Harborough in terms of importance of the stations)

 

[A0]

It’s okay if you have the time. But if someone wants to get from Harpenden to Sheffield and they need to get there by a certain time, one can see how the current setup would be pretty unattractive. But by the same token I can see why the current service is arranged as it is.

But the reality is that journey is now slower by ~5 minutes, which is the interchange at Kettering compared to the pre Corby electrics timetable.

 

[bramling]

But the reality is that journey is now slower by ~5 minutes, which is the interchange at Kettering compared to the pre Corby electrics timetable.

This may so be so, but it’s three opportunities to miss a connection, three opportunities to be affected by a cancellation, three opportunities not to get a seat, et cetera.

It may be satisfactory on paper, but it’s hardly an attractive proposition.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Brentwood to Stowmarket

Has two big population centres (Colchester and Ipswich) and are 12 stations apart with 7 different ways a northbound train from Brentwood can go (Southend/Southminster, Braintree, Clacton/Walton, Harwich, Felixstowe, Lowestoft, Stowmarket).

Barnt Green to Tewkesbury

Has 3 major junctions (off to Kidderminster, down through the Cotswolds, across to Hereford), plus a major city in the middle (Worcester).

Carpenders Park to Nuneaton

As you said, well over 40 miles and also has Watford, Milton Keynes and Coventry in the way, plus 16 or 18 stations apart depending on whether you go via Northampton or not.

Berrylands to Micheldever

Has 7 different ways that trains can head southbound from Berrylands (Hampton Court, Guildford via Oxshott, Richmond, Guildford via Worplesdon, Alton, Salisbury, and Micheldever) and are 14 stations apart.

 

[A0]

Has two big population centres (Colchester and Ipswich) and are 12 stations apart with 7 different ways a northbound train from Brentwood can go (Southend/Southminster, Braintree, Clacton/Walton, Harwich, Felixstowe, Lowestoft, Stowmarket).

Has 3 major junctions (off to Kidderminster, down through the Cotswolds, across to Hereford), plus a major city in the middle (Worcester).

As you said, well over 40 miles and also has Watford, Milton Keynes and Coventry in the way, plus 16 or 18 stations apart depending on whether you go via Northampton or not.

Has 7 different ways that trains can head southbound from Berrylands (Hampton Court, Guildford via Oxshott, Richmond, Guildford via Worplesdon, Alton, Salisbury, and Micheldever) and are 14 stations apart.

Ok - I'll bite - Congleton to Rugeley TV.

Admittedly more stations than the 4 you mention (it's 7), *but* the fast Avanti London - Manchester services pass through both yet 2 changes are needed to make that journey.

You need to change at Stoke and Stafford. Used to be 1 change at Stoke until the LNW Crewe services were diverted away from the Potteries.

And in population terms Rugeley and Congleton are both ~25,000 so comparable to Market Harborough and double the size of Flitwick.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Isn't it 110 mph max? If so there's only a couple of places on the MML where you can do that anyway, and the superior accleration of the 360's means the journey times from Wellingborough are are about 52 mins.

I've got to be honest, i like the 8 car 360's with unreserved seating, you can always find a seat. Not so much with the 4 cars though.

Actually, i'm one of the "good folk" of Leicester and i wouldn't mind them coming here. The line between Wellingborough and Leicester isn't that quick. And i've noticed that you can often find - at short notice - advanced tickets Between Kettering and London on the 360's for £20- £30. A lot less than you get from Leicester usually. It's cheaper to drive from here and park at Kettering for a day in London.

Agreed. I've noticed the split sites offer options to split at Kettering on a Leicester to St Pancras journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2022 ==

Similarly on the WCML one can change at MKC for the main destinations. Someone in Leighton Buzzard or Bletchley (or even Tring) having to go via Euston is silly, just as Luton to Leicester* via St Pancras is just stupid. For Watford (much closer to London) it is far less of an issue.

Prior to the EMR Connect introduction and that change I used to frequently do Luton - Leicester changing at Wellingborough or Kettering. I know that nowadays the Kettering option is the move, usually with a 9 minute change, so the suggestion of changing at St Pancras seems most odd.

 

[Magdalia]

But the reality is that journey is now slower by ~5 minutes, which is the interchange at Kettering compared to the pre Corby electrics timetable.

Connections add to journey time, and it is rarely only 5 minutes.

This may so be so, but it’s three opportunities to miss a connection, three opportunities to be affected by a cancellation, three opportunities not to get a seat, et cetera.

It may be satisfactory on paper, but it’s hardly an attractive proposition.

Connections add to risk of delay.

Both of these factors discourage travel by train that isn't a direct journey. And the shorter the connection time, the greater the risk of delay, so it is impossible to make one factor less discouraging without making the other more discouraging.

And on the obscure short journeys that require 2 changes challenge, I offer Heyford to Hatton. Apart from 2 morning northbound journeys and 2 southbound evening journeys, 2 changes are required at Banbury and Leamington Spa. This has only 5 intermediate stations.

A slightly longer one is Waltham Cross to Waterbeach, but with many more intermediate stations.

 

[Andy Pacer]

It’s okay if you have the time. But if someone wants to get from Harpenden to Sheffield and they need to get there by a certain time, one can see how the current setup would be pretty unattractive. But by the same token I can see why the current service is arranged as it is.

But presumably that journey wouldn't have been too attractive before the connect timetable as would have still required at least one change (possibly 2 if my memory serves me correctly?)

 

[A0]

But presumably that journey wouldn't have been too attractive before the connect timetable as would have still required at least one change (possibly 2 if my memory serves me correctly?)

From Bedford to Sheffield, definitely 1 change (except for a couple of odd journeys at peak).

It would have been EMR Bedford to Leicester (because the EMR stoppers were usually the Nottingham services, though some peak Sheffields did stop at some places south of Leicester) and then EMR Leicester - Sheffield.

So anything between Luton and Bedford wpuld have been +1 change to get to Bedford on Thameslink.

 

[Andy Pacer]

From Bedford to Sheffield, definitely 1 change (except for a couple of odd journeys at peak).

It would have been EMR Bedford to Leicester (because the EMR stoppers were usually the Nottingham services, though some peak Sheffields did stop at some places south of Leicester) and then EMR Leicester - Sheffield.

So anything between Luton and Bedford wpuld have been +1 change to get to Bedford on Thameslink.

Thanks for jogging my memory. Of course the "slow" Nottingham used to stop at Luton Airport Parkway, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, Market Harborough.

 

[DelayRepay]

It’s okay if you have the time. But if someone wants to get from Harpenden to Sheffield and they need to get there by a certain time, one can see how the current setup would be pretty unattractive.

But presumably that journey wouldn't have been too attractive before the connect timetable as would have still required at least one change (possibly 2 if my memory serves me correctly?)

I used to do a similar journey - St Albans to Sheffield - and whilst you could sometimes do it with one change, normally you needed two. But somehow three feels much less attractive than two! Not necessarily logical but there you go.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I used to do a similar journey - St Albans to Sheffield - and whilst you could sometimes do it with one change, normally you needed two. But somehow three feels much less attractive than two! Not necessarily logical but there you go.

I guess that was the unfortunate nature of the Sheffield's being faster between London and Leicester whereas the two 'stoppers' were the slow Nottingham and the Corby.

 

[baz962]

From Bedford to Sheffield, definitely 1 change (except for a couple of odd journeys at peak).

It would have been EMR Bedford to Leicester (because the EMR stoppers were usually the Nottingham services, though some peak Sheffields did stop at some places south of Leicester) and then EMR Leicester - Sheffield.

So anything between Luton and Bedford wpuld have been +1 change to get to Bedford on Thameslink.

And of course the first two Nottingham services call at Bedford. So if you want to be in Nottingham early , no change for Bedford people and one for Flitwick etc and for Sheffield one change for Bedford and two for the others.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This may so be so, but it’s three opportunities to miss a connection, three opportunities to be affected by a cancellation, three opportunities not to get a seat, et cetera.

It may be satisfactory on paper, but it’s hardly an attractive proposition.

I think it's also worth bearing in mind that a "broken" journey is generally less desirable than a short journey, a long trunk journey then another short journey, particularly where the bits on the end are like LU or Merseyrail so you have a frequent service and so can build in speed or resilience as preferred, and where it doesn't overly matter if you have to stand for the short bit, and where it might be viable to pay for a taxi if there's a problem for one of those bits. Plus you can sit down and relax for the longer trunk journey.