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Energy bills to rise - how much is yours going up by?

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Mcr Warrior

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£1.38 per cubic meter, or 0.138p per litre or 0.02p per cup, hmm 50 cups a penny
Don't forget the daily standing charge! Certainly still cheap, compared with bottled water, but it ain't free! ;)

P.S. Wasn't it the nuclear power industry that once supposedly claimed that the electricity it generated would be "too cheap to meter"?
 
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reddragon

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Don't forget the daily standing charge! Certainly still cheap, compared with bottled water, but it ain't free! ;)

P.S. Wasn't it the nuclear power industry that once supposedly claimed that the electricity it generated would be "too cheap to meter"?
The standing charge is charged whatever.

Nuclear is the most expensive energy to make, whereas wind is the cheapest, closely followed by solar. Tidal would be if only the investment was made.
 

AM9

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P.S. Wasn't it the nuclear power industry that once supposedly claimed that the electricity it generated would be "too cheap to meter"?
I think that was energy from fusion. First mentioned just after the war, the Zeta scheme claimed energy from sea water. The process hasn't been successfully demonstrated but there's a groundbreaking announcement about once every ten years. Don't hold your breath though.
 
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GusB

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I don't use the drier very often, but I use the shower at least once, sometimes twice a day. I'm now trying to work out whether I can have a shower that uses the hot water from my combi boiler fitted, and if so how long it would take to break even.

I've been having thoughts about my own shower. I have a solar panel on the roof that heats the water (in addition to the heat pump), so I'm wondering if I'd be better off just buying a device that attaches to the bath taps and use the hot water from the tank, rather than using the electric shower.

I've also found the instructions for my boiler, so I'll be adjusting the hot water timer which seems to switch on at the most bizarre times of day (it really doesn't need to come on at 11pm!) My housing association has a 3rd party contractor that deals with the servicing and the timer was set by them - I suspect they were under the impression that I was on an economy 10 tariff, (which seems to be fairly common around here).

Now that my heating is off for the summer, I'm looking to see what else I can make savings on.
 

DelayRepay

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I've been having thoughts about my own shower. I have a solar panel on the roof that heats the water (in addition to the heat pump), so I'm wondering if I'd be better off just buying a device that attaches to the bath taps and use the hot water from the tank, rather than using the electric shower.

I've thought about getting one of those attachments but I'm not sure if they actually work. We had one at my parents house before they got a proper shower installed, and I remember it was really hard to get the right temperature - you were either freezing or scalded no matter what you did with the taps! Then you had the extra problem of the cold water pressure dropping if someone turned on a tap elsewhere in the house.

Now that my heating is off for the summer, I'm looking to see what else I can make savings on.

My aim for the summer is to try to improve the insulation. I'm not planning major work but things like getting a thick curtain to cover the front door (the previous occupant must have done this, as there's already a curtain rail fitted).

I'm also going to have TRV valves fitted to the radiators so I can turn the heating off in certain rooms. I work from home a lot more now and it seems silly to heat the whole house during the day when I'm just sat in the spare bedroom. Equally it seems silly to heat the spare bedroom at weekends when I'm not using it.

I realise I am fortunate; those who really need to mitigate their fuel costs probably cannot afford to spend cash on thick curtains and radiator valves.
 

davews

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I used to have one of those plug on the taps showers years ago and it worked well - I have a large header tank in the loft and there is enough pressure. The problem is that all the taps have gone fancy these days so the plug ons don't fit. But if you have a header tank AND a water cylinder you don't need a shower which heats the water very inefficiently.
For information I had a smart meter installed a couple of months ago. Already thrown the kitchen display in the bottom cupboard but it did tell me I have a background consumption of 40W at night and 60W in the day when this computer is on. Not too worried, but those of you who use several hundred watts background really need to work out why.
 

Freightmaster

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For information I had a smart meter installed a couple of months ago. Already thrown the kitchen display in the bottom cupboard but it did tell me I have a background consumption of 40W at night and 60W in the day when this computer is on. Not too worried, but those of you who use several hundred watts background really need to work out why.
I'm trying!

One thing I have found is my (A+rated) fridge-freezer consumes around 60 watts when running,
which is more than your entire property at night... o_O

So you must either have an extremely small/efficient fridge-freezer or have nothing else powered
up whatsoever??

A couple of weeks ago, we started unplugging/isolating things like the cooker, microwave, kettle,
toaster, washing machine, etc. when not in use, so this is what I now have 'ticking over' at night
if I additionally turn my hifi, computers and all peripherals off:


- fridge-freezer (60w)

- internet router, modem and Railcam camera (45w in total)

- Sky box

- four cordless phones

- two Alexa devices

- chargers for iphones/Apple Watch/iPADs/Dyson vacuum cleaner

- two water fountains for the cats

- garage door opener

- outdoor security lights

- Nest thermostat and associated heating control unit.

- bedside clock radio


grand total: around 300w (increasing to over 600w in an evening when the computers,
my hifi, lights* and the lounge TV/sound system are all on!)

*all lights in the house are LED


Since last Friday, I have started turning the Dyson charger and two of the Apple chargers off when not needed,
but if I turn the cordless phone chargers off, the phones start 'chirping' after a few hours!


I'm not sure where I can make further significant power savings to be honest...?




MARK
 

jon0844

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Most chargers when idle will be using 0.5W or less, and even set top boxes and TVs etc will probably be about the same.

As I now have multiple Echo dots and two Echo Shows, as well as a lot of smart bulbs, that's a fair few 0.5W which adds up (I think 0.5W is the max so some may be using even less).

Having a fridge freezer and a second freezer in the garage, there are certainly items you cannot stop to get the idle power consumption down. It seems the garage freezer uses 2.2W and jumps to 130W when the compressor is on - which varies throughout the day and how often you open and close the door etc.

I guess the fridge is going to be similar. Nothing you can do besides turning the temperatures up, which then risks ruining food quicker. Turning the power off overnight and back on risks damage to the unit (perhaps) and you're also running the system longer to get back to temperature.

I really feel for people who have less efficient appliances and no money to replace them. We're quite lucky that almost everything in the home is relatively new and all gadgets (TVs, STBs etc) are all equipped with excellent power saving features, both on and off. I have a computer powered by Apple's M1 chip and that means it idles at around 5-6W and under load maybe peaks at 30! Try doing that with an Intel chip!

As a very quick and dirty way to check power consumption, if you have a smart meter with display, just go to your fuse box and cut the power to all sockets, then lighting and so on - and see the drop.

If I cut the sockets, it drops markedly - but sadly everything that is plugged in has a purpose.

I've also found that dropping the power level on my Wi-Fi mesh network (two routers) maybe reduces the power by 2W tops - and it does impact the coverage within the home. Some efficiency savings end up near pointless.
 

AM9

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Most chargers when idle will be using 0.5W or less, and even set top boxes and TVs etc will probably be about the same.

#The current limit for domestic devices when in 'genuine' standby is 0.5W (3W if connected online - e.g. most smart TVs)

Having a fridge freezer and a second freezer in the garage, there are certainly items you cannot stop to get the idle power consumption down. It seems the garage freezer uses 2.2W and jumps to 130W when the compressor is on - which varies throughout the day and how often you open and close the door etc.
I guess the fridge is going to be similar. Nothing you can do besides turning the temperatures up, which then risks ruining food quicker. Turning the power off overnight and back on risks damage to the unit (perhaps) and you're also running the system longer to get back to temperatur

We have a fridge, two freezers (a second one was needed during the restrictions in 2020) and a wine cooler. Each draws about 50 - 80W when compressing. Then there's a wine cooler. That seems to draw 120W which seems a bit thirsty considering it is usually set to 11 deg C! Not sure what the Microwave or Gas cooker draw to power their clocks. I frequenly watch the background power demand as we had solar panels installed over the winter, and am gathering data to a) see if a battery would be effective and b) what wuold be the optimum capacity.

I really feel for people who have less efficient appliances and no money to replace them. We're quite lucky that almost everything in the home is relatively new and all gadgets (TVs, STBs etc) are all equipped with excellent power saving features, both on and off. I have a computer powered by Apple's M1 chip and that means it idles at around 5-6W and under load maybe peaks at 30! Try doing that with an Intel chip!

That's interesting about the Appkle M1, is it a mac mini? I have a home made i3 desktop as a (home) office machine - components optimised for lowest power/performance. I also have an i7 video editing platform which when working hard can draw between 400 & 500W but it will need upgrading/replacing soon. I have heard that the Mac Mini can just about edit/grade 4K video in a home environment so will be interested when the M2 is released (slated for next year), despite the fact that I don't warm to the Apple business ethic.
 

davews

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I didn't include my fridge/freezer in my sums, I am aware it consumes an intermittent 60W or so. My overall consumption by the way is around 5kWH per day and for some reason the new smart meter shows more like 4.5 so maybe the old meter was overreading.
 

jon0844

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That's interesting about the Appkle M1, is it a mac mini? I have a home made i3 desktop as a (home) office machine - components optimised for lowest power/performance. I also have an i7 video editing platform which when working hard can draw between 400 & 500W but it will need upgrading/replacing soon. I have heard that the Mac Mini can just about edit/grade 4K video in a home environment so will be interested when the M2 is released (slated for next year), despite the fact that I don't warm to the Apple business ethic.

Yes, it is. The higher-spec M1 chips are more power hungry, but the difference in power consumption has really given Intel and AMD a major kick in the backside, especially now energy costs are so high.

While many businesses may not care so much, I think even they'll be looking for more efficient computers in the future as the cost of multiple machines under load will actually be a not insignificant amount.

My smart TVs are also set to be in max power save mode. I don't need them doing anything in standby, as I can do app/firmware updates when they're on.

As for my garage freezer, I am not sure if it's good or bad energy consumption wise as it fluctuates - and is also a full-height unit. It is maybe 15 years old, so I guess a newer one would be more efficient - but enough to warrant changing it when it still works fine? Always tricky to do the maths on that one.
 

DelayRepay

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It's sometimes said that filling empty space in your freezer will save energy. Some people suggest using old milk bottles filled with water. I'm not sure whether this is true or not, and if it is true I imagine any saving would be negligible.

My dad used to keep everything switched off. He'd even switch his broadband router off when he wasn't using the internet. TV, microwave etc were all unplugged from the wall when not in use. He even used to take the batteries out of the clocks when we went on holiday so they'd last a bit longer :D
 

AM9

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Yes, it is. The higher-spec M1 chips are more power hungry, but the difference in power consumption has really given Intel and AMD a major kick in the backside, especially now energy costs are so high.

While many businesses may not care so much, I think even they'll be looking for more efficient computers in the future as the cost of multiple machines under load will actually be a not insignificant amount.

My smart TVs are also set to be in max power save mode. I don't need them doing anything in standby, as I can do app/firmware updates when they're on.

As for my garage freezer, I am not sure if it's good or bad energy consumption wise as it fluctuates - and is also a full-height unit. It is maybe 15 years old, so I guess a newer one would be more efficient - but enough to warrant changing it when it still works fine? Always tricky to do the maths on that one.
Tha garage is the best place for a freezer if practical, (it isn't for us yet) because the garage is generally cooler than a kitchen/utility in the summer, and definitely in the winter. Why waste energy adding local heat and then pay to remove it from the freezer? Insulation is the biggest thing that I need to improve, and is for most dwellings. Sooner or later the penny will drop with the government that trying to offset increased heating bills caused by excessive heat loss with loans, discounts of increased benefits is the worst of choices when the payyback for fixing the heat loss is getting shorter every year.

It's sometimes said that filling empty space in your freezer will save energy. Some people suggest using old milk bottles filled with water. I'm not sure whether this is true or not, and if it is true I imagine any saving would be negligible.

My dad used to keep everything switched off. He'd even switch his broadband router off when he wasn't using the internet. TV, microwave etc were all unplugged from the wall when not in use. He even used to take the batteries out of the clocks when we went on holiday so they'd last a bit longer :D
Better to keep the freezer in the coldest place of the house.
 

JamesT

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Tha garage is the best place for a freezer if practical, (it isn't for us yet) because the garage is generally cooler than a kitchen/utility in the summer, and definitely in the winter. Why waste energy adding local heat and then pay to remove it from the freezer? Insulation is the biggest thing that I need to improve, and is for most dwellings. Sooner or later the penny will drop with the government that trying to offset increased heating bills caused by excessive heat loss with loans, discounts of increased benefits is the worst of choices when the payyback for fixing the heat loss is getting shorter every year.
I would check the specs of your freezer before doing that. Quite often the condenser on a freezer isn't rated to work below 5-10℃ so it stops if the room is too cold.
 

najaB

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It's sometimes said that filling empty space in your freezer will save energy. Some people suggest using old milk bottles filled with water. I'm not sure whether this is true or not, and if it is true I imagine any saving would be negligible.
In theory it should save some energy in two ways that I can see. First the increased thermal inertia will reduce the temperature cycling - it will stay colder for longer meaning that the compressor will need to run less often. Secondly, assuming it's an upright freezer rather than chest, more space filled means less cold air to fall out and be replaced by warm air when you open the door.
 

jon0844

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It's sometimes said that filling empty space in your freezer will save energy. Some people suggest using old milk bottles filled with water. I'm not sure whether this is true or not, and if it is true I imagine any saving would be negligible.

My dad used to keep everything switched off. He'd even switch his broadband router off when he wasn't using the internet. TV, microwave etc were all unplugged from the wall when not in use. He even used to take the batteries out of the clocks when we went on holiday so they'd last a bit longer :D

If you don't need the Internet all the time, switching the router(s) off is probably not a bad idea. My phones would revert to using mobile data, so no biggie there should I wake up and want to go online.

However, I have two security cameras that are connected so I really have to leave them on. That's around 40W (20W each) per night, and having tried the power save mode for Wi-Fi it really made sod all difference.

I guess I could turn off the mesh node, which would help a bit, but it can sometimes take a while to connect...
 

DelayRepay

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If you don't need the Internet all the time, switching the router(s) off is probably not a bad idea. My phones would revert to using mobile data, so no biggie there should I wake up and want to go online.

However, I have two security cameras that are connected so I really have to leave them on. That's around 40W (20W each) per night, and having tried the power save mode for Wi-Fi it really made sod all difference.

I guess I could turn off the mesh node, which would help a bit, but it can sometimes take a while to connect...
Someone told me that if you regularly switch your router on and off, the ISP may think the line's unstable and reduce the speed. I have no idea if that's true or not (or if it was true once, if it's still true with modern broadband and routers)
 

AM9

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Someone told me that if you regularly switch your router on and off, the ISP may think the line's unstable and reduce the speed. I have no idea if that's true or not (or if it was true once, if it's still true with modern broadband and routers)
It is with BT. The line between the modem and the cabinet goes through a line testing period when installed and whenever the modem is turned off and back on. During that period a number of profiles are tried to acheive the optimum bandwidth. During this period intenet access may be unreliable and slow as it will default to a safe low speed at first. It may also register faults based on the intermittent connection. Not really good for internet reliability, especially in view of the limited savings on energy.
 

Ediswan

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In theory it should save some energy in two ways that I can see. First the increased thermal inertia will reduce the temperature cycling - it will stay colder for longer meaning that the compressor will need to run less often.
A full freezer will take longer to warm up to the point that the compressor starts. However, it will also take longer to cool back down to the point where the compressor stops. The compressor will start less often, but will run for longer each time it does. I suspect the proportion of the time the compressor runs for will be much the same. The job of the compressor etc. is to remove thermal energy that has leaked in from the environment. When the door is kept closed, that is determined by the internal temperature, the temperature of the environment, and the construction of the freezer, but not what is inside the freezer. Fewer longer cycles may be more efficient for the compressor etc.

Secondly, assuming it's an upright freezer rather than chest, more space filled means less cold air to fall out and be replaced by warm air when you open the door.
True. The numbers are small though. The specific heat capacity of air is low.
 

reddragon

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The full freezer issue relates to opening a door to an open freezer & the cold being replaced by warm air

This is not an issue with chest freezers with top access & a limited issue with drawer freezers.

The recommended solution is actually to use scrunched up newspaper as it both stops cold losses & doesn't need extra energy to cool
 

Baxenden Bank

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Or invest in something like this and measure the consumption of each device directly: https://cpc.farnell.com/energenie/ener007/power-meter/dp/PL13026
The manual: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2720873.pdf

Other options are available.
Thanks for the prompt, I invested in something similar, from the well known online retailer named after a large river.

Used 0.5kWh today on my 6 brews, total cost 15.8p at my daytime rates, or if I became a night owl I could reduce that to 8.5p but would use more in lighting and certainly heating.

It occurs to me that the meter will have a fairly short life - once I've taken enough readings to build a reasonable picture of average use for common activities there will be no need to continue measuring. Any market for second hand, slightly used power meters?
 

jon0844

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Someone told me that if you regularly switch your router on and off, the ISP may think the line's unstable and reduce the speed. I have no idea if that's true or not (or if it was true once, if it's still true with modern broadband and routers)
I think that's true for DSL connections but I am sure I was told that they analyse over a fairly long period, so turning off at night likely won't make a difference to your profile (and I think you can even ask to be put on a fixed profile).

I have fibre so would keep the ONT powered and just turn off the router, which is fed by ethernet from the ONT. However I don't think the savings would be that significant (although with idle usage all adding up, I suppose every little helps).
 

Baxenden Bank

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However I don't think the savings would be that significant (although with idle usage all adding up, I suppose every little helps).
Fundamentally, this is the key point.

It applies to the current energy cost situation but also to water usage [if on a meter supply], car usage and general personal expenditure.

There are some activities [and their associated costs] which you cannot realistically reduce and/or if you do they have minimal impact. Not filling your swimming pool weekly saves water, leaving your tap running whilst brushing your teeth also saves water, but to a much lesser degree, even when multiplied twice per day, 365 days per year. A unit of water [1 cubic metre] is huge.

Having a few items on standby, yes it uses some electricity, and some would argue that any saving is good for the planet, but the savings are insignificant compared to heating your house. I already know that my baseline summer usage [that is no heating at all] when annualised over 12 months is dwarfed by my winter use, mostly heating and a bit extra lighting I suppose.
Some examples:
Using the washing machine on an 8 day cycle rather than a 7 day one [115 washes per year instead of 130]: £5.15 per year . WOW
Using the washing machine overnight [causing disturbed sleep]: £20.73 per year saving.
Using the washing machine on an 8 day cycle and overnight: £23.50 per year saving.
Eating cold food once per day instead of using the oven: £33.45 per year saving.
Cutting out all cups of tea and drinking tap water: £57.34 per year saving.
Using the computer in poor light [risking eye damage] instead of an LED overhead light: £28.67 per year saving.

To put those numbers into perspective, based on my average annual usage my electricity bill has increased by £956 compared to April 2021 rates. Heaven knows what the October increase will result in. All of the realistic measures are loose change down the back of the sofa in comparison. Even the £150 big cash prize is fairly loose change and the £200 deferral is no saving at all unless I somehow avoid paying it back by dying or moving to an off-grid property [cave/tent/camper van?].

Those banging on in the media about how we can all do our bit are, essentially, talking pure ideology rather than real world. There are very few people who are sat at home all day in winter with their heating on full blast, every door and window wide open and positive ventilation to suck in more cold air so they can heat it up and blast it out again just for the fun of it.
 

AndrewE

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£1.38 per cubic meter, or 0.138p per litre or 0.02p per cup, hmm 50 cups a penny
plus a lot more for disposal of same! They assume it all goes down your bog too and you pay to get rid of it. Use rainwater for flushing and your bills will go down a lot because they can't measure the supply which comes from above!
 

AM9

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plus a lot more for disposal of same! They assume it all goes down your bog too and you pay to get rid of it. Use rainwater for flushing and your bills will go down a lot because they can't measure the supply which comes from above!
So how much does it cost to install rainwater collection, storage in sufficient quantity and a secondary supply to all relevant points in the premises?
 

reddragon

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Clean water and waste water disposal is not free!

The Water Industry is the biggest energy user in the UK and one water company alone is the single largest energy user in the UK. That costs. The huge energy rises will impact on your water bills sooner or later as that is one of the largest costs of water bills.

The water industry is also under funded, spending just 10% of the EU average investment in its infrastructure. One day, that money will have to be raised from bills and assets renewed. We cannot have the lowest water bills just for the sake of it.
 

JamesT

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I thought we had the lowest water bills for libertarian capitalist ideological reasons?
It's presumably an ideological choice as to the levels of investment and bills that Ofwat allow the water companies to set. The companies usually claim they would be happy to invest more (which would result in higher profits in the future) but Ofwat limit it to prevent bills going up now.

The interesting question is to compare the performance of the English water industry with Scotland and Wales that have much more government involvement.
 

Baxenden Bank

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It's presumably an ideological choice as to the levels of investment and bills that Ofwat allow the water companies to set. The companies usually claim they would be happy to invest more (which would result in higher profits in the future) but Ofwat limit it to prevent bills going up now.

The interesting question is to compare the performance of the English water industry with Scotland and Wales that have much more government involvement.
Or we already have high quality water supplies and waste treatment, the replacement costs of which are already reflected in water company accounts [depreciation, investment allowed by OFWAT etc] whereas other countries are still 'catching up', or am I late to the party on the relative quality of drinking water in Spanish etc resorts? Or put used toilet paper in a dish by the toilet [for the housekeeper to dispose of] because the treatment works can't cope with it all?

Thames Water certainly prefers 'big capital spend' which goes into the accounts as an asset rather than 'fixing leaks' which doesn't. Then again Macquarrie promised not to load the balance sheet with debt, ahem, hello regulator.
 
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