East Coast Eureka clockface timetable May 2011

[DaveNewcastle]

Nice to hear from you again, silentone. Its been a while since we've heard from you on here!

I can confirm that there will be one (just the one) EC service running through to Glasgow each day. [With some glee, some in the company are rubbing their hands together over the prospect of retaining some of the revenue of all pax between Edinburgh & Glasgow (and other origin stations). Can anyone remind me who the beneficiaries of that benefit would be? The shareholders of DOR? They will be you and me, no?]

. . . . they want to be able to reveal everything and make sure that passengers have everything they need to know rather than reading little bits in the papers or hearing little snippets of what's to come from here there and everywhere.

Realistically speaking no passenger needs to know about the timetable yet,

That's not really correct.
I don't pretend to be an average passenger, but I do travel long distances on EC regularly and do have to plan meetings in remote cities 6 or more months ahead. (One of the joys of living in Newcastle is that I can travel to most UK cities and back in a day - and no, its not easy with Plymouth & Inverness!) and as a consequence, being able to book events with my colleagues far in advance - using EC's timetable, makes all this possible.
The fact that the Eureka timetable has still not been published has held me back from confirming one June Glasgow meeting already. I'm also deferring a series of meetings with a law firm over a matter which really shouldn't keep the client waiting. (I have no wish to do a days work consisting largely of travel there & back on any of those noisy, drafty, uncomfortable commuter units with no more than processed biscuits to eat and carbonated 'flavoured' stale water to drink? That's been the benefit of EC - comfortable trains, high speeds, high frequency & proper catering.)

So, silentone, I guess I have to make the first claim on here that, no, at least one passenger DOES need to know what the timetable will be 4 months ahead. Please?

(There's only one thing more certain to get me to cancel a meeting in Glasgow thatn travelling on voyagers or ScotRail units, and that's having to drive a car there and back.)

 

[Invincibles]

At least Labour made provision for alternative services from Glasgow/Motherwell to Newcastle/York albeit under Crosscountry and at least there will be more services to the south of England than at present-at present there are 2.

I must confess I thought there were more Glasgow to London trains than just the 2 you suggest.

I am embarassed now that I suggested the Labour Government had not improved the provision of services from Glasgow to Newcastle by 500%

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I must confess I thought there were more Glasgow to London trains than just the 2 you suggest.

There are 8 EC services to Glasgow each weekday plus 8 southbound each weekday.

Timetable here

 

[Invincibles]

There are 8 EC services to Glasgow each weekday plus 8 southbound each weekday.

Timetable here

I had about 6 in my mind, either way remarkably similar to the number of XC trains that there will be.

So I am curious how many extra trains Damien1986 thinks Adonis created that the conservatives would not have done.

Sorry just some of the completely daft political points that get made really annoy me

 

[jon0844]

I am curious to hear how anything thinks that Lord Adonis (or his predecessors and now the Tories) somehow sat down coming up with timetables, and then somehow looked at maps of safe seats and other things to create it for political gain.

It seems more likely that the people working out the timetables, which must be a logistical nightmare, are the same people doing it now as always and this project has taken a lot of hard work - and would have been done regardless.

 

[Deerfold]

Not quite. What they are doing is not talking about it because they want to be able to reveal everything and make sure that passengers have everything they need to know rather than reading little bits in the papers or hearing little snippets of what's to come from here there and everywhere.

Realistically speaking no passenger needs to know about the timetable yet, they listened to the feedback on the draft timetable and made changes. Now they're preparing for its launch, and everyone who needs to know about it will be able to find out everything they need to know.

So why, last February, did they tell us they would be telling us more over the "coming months" (and no, I don't regard a year later as being in that timescale). If there wasn't going to be an update for that long why not just say "Full timetables are expected to be available at date x"?

 

[jon0844]

Because some things changed? Maybe some logistical issues, or another delay that Joe Public have no reason to care about.. all reasons why you might just want to wait until everything is in place before telling people all, or even some of, the details.

In the case of FCC adding more seats, this had been planned from around 2006 (maybe even earlier, under Wagn) on the GN side - and they were also lucky to get 'new' rolling stock well ahead of time, so they could drip feed information to the public over a long period.

However, if they were still waiting to get trains or have timetables approved, and they promised '6,500 new seats' then delayed both the new trains and new services, people would go mad and the press would eat them alive.

 

[Deerfold]

So presumably sometime since last February they could have posted an update saying "there's been in a delay in finalising these timetables, we expect to be able to tell you more in X" instead of promising updates and then providing nothing.

I wouldn't have expected it if they hadn't said they were going to do it in the first place!

 

[shinkansen1966]

I wouldn't have expected it if they hadn't said they were going to do it in the first place!

Talk is cheap. Politicians generally only keep their traps shut only when they have something to hide.

 

[silentone]

People seem to just be chomping at the bit for the sake of here and just want the new timetable for the sake of seeing something new. There are stories appearing in the press which go someway to explain why the timetable hasn't been revealed and I did say things were about to get sticky.

Although the timetable shakeup is major it shouldn't prevent people arranging their lives as the trains will still run. Yes you don't know the times of the trains but a bit of common sense could apply.

They have also assured everyone that the catering vehicles will be done on time despite the apparent slow start.

 

[jon0844]

It's not as if the times are going to change THAT radically! When FCC moved my train from xx22 and xx52 to xx27 and xx57, it didn't change my life.

Nor has my morning train 0902 going to 0903 put me out too much (even if the train is booked to arrive at 0901 in both cases anyway!).

It's fine for us to discuss the changes here and get info, but you generally wait until everything is good to go before announcing it - as U-turns are always going to get you unwanted comments.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't need to know exact times of every train but first and last trains on a Saturday and Sunday would be good. WE've been promised the biggest change for 20 years, not just trains moving by a few minutes.

Edit: I'm hoping for quite a few more weekend trains with a later finish.

As I say I wouldn't have expected anything early if East Coast didn't have numerous comments from a year ago about how they were going to keep us up to date.

I've not seen anything in the press about this being delayed or "sticky" - I've not seen anything since just after February 2010 apart from in the Lincoln local press.

I'm not asking to be told everything as soon as it's created, just curious as to why EC aren't doing this as their Eureka pages still say.

As I said I've only got this expectation because they said they'd they be telling us things.

 

[swt_passenger]

People seem to just be chomping at the bit for the sake of here and just want the new timetable for the sake of seeing something new. There are stories appearing in the press which go someway to explain why the timetable hasn't been revealed and I did say things were about to get sticky.

I believe ORR made a policy decision some time last year to stop publishing what had become a running commentary on the negotiation process. What they were worried about was that if they published TOCs proposals before the next deadline, other proposals were being amended to suit, the new policy has been seen in the WCML track access consultation for the 2012 timetable, where all the competing applications were published on the same day.

They also decided that following all the grief from the papers, they would no longer be publishing draft timetables in the way they initially did for Eureka, because the national media treated them as the finished article in their stories. Their follow up letter explaining that the NR draft was incomplete, (ie didn't show some services at all) was just 'locking the stable door' - the media had moved on to something else by then, and the 'Glasgow - Edinburgh service abandoned' headlines were never corrected...

 

[stut]

I agree that it does make sense to wait until everything is settles before releasing bits of information (and the vicious circle of nudges and last-minute changes that always result).

However, as a regular traveller from East Anglia to the North of England and Scotland, I'm awaiting the new timetable with baited breath, hoping my connections in Peterborough aren't too damaged. I hate Stansted, and don't want it to be the only alternative!

 

[Striker]

I am curious to hear how anything thinks that Lord Adonis (or his predecessors and now the Tories) somehow sat down coming up with timetables, and then somehow looked at maps of safe seats and other things to create it for political gain.

It seems more likely that the people working out the timetables, which must be a logistical nightmare, are the same people doing it now as always and this project has taken a lot of hard work - and would have been done regardless.

First sensible post I've seen you make. Well done!

 

[jon0844]

First sensible post I've seen you make. Well done!

Well, when you've written around 3,500 posts - there's a good chance some will be sensible. I'm pretty sure it's not my first though.

 

[Failed Unit]

DaveNewcastle - post 91 makes a good point that people heading to Glasgow will consider the service significantly downgraded even if it is still direct.

When travelling now from Edinburgh - Leeds I always avoid XC services and change at York. Why?

1. Ability to work. XC voyagers block mobile signals very well. They haven't had the modifications virgins have so you get very limited use of your mobile phone and 3G card. No wi-fi either.
2. Catering. East coast provide it XC don't.
3. Price. On AP tickets east coast always win. I often use the 0800 service the XC service behind is the HST. Lots of empty seats but still none that are close in price to east coast. I change trains and take 5 mins longer to save £15 each way!

Someone doing Newcastle - Glasgow has lost 2.5hours productive working time as the now either need to change at Waverley for a couple of trains with decent facalities or sit in the wireless and catering free voyager.

Don't know if the average punter will care, but I guess the station retail outlets at Glasgow will enjoy the boom of people stocking up before they leave.

 

[silentone]

I don't need to know exact times of every train but first and last trains on a Saturday and Sunday would be good. WE've been promised the biggest change for 20 years, not just trains moving by a few minutes.

Edit: I'm hoping for quite a few more weekend trains with a later finish.

As I say I wouldn't have expected anything early if East Coast didn't have numerous comments from a year ago about how they were going to keep us up to date.

I've not seen anything in the press about this being delayed or "sticky" - I've not seen anything since just after February 2010 apart from in the Lincoln local press.

I'm not asking to be told everything as soon as it's created, just curious as to why EC aren't doing this as their Eureka pages still say.

As I said I've only got this expectation because they said they'd they be telling us things.

There has definitely been more revealed since February, nothing has been delayed. The sticky part I talk of has just gotten into the press in the past few days and relates to jobs. Of course the Eureka! timetable has also meant the loss of the Glasgow Depot which has been a delicate matter with those who are losing their jobs/transferring.

Elaine Holt has been out talking about the new timetable in recent days also. Just because this hasn't been plastered all over the press doesn't mean more details haven't been revealed. (Mainly being revealed to local regions and how the change applies to them)

 

[Deerfold]

There has definitely been more revealed since February, nothing has been delayed. The sticky part I talk of has just gotten into the press in the past few days and relates to jobs. Of course the Eureka! timetable has also meant the loss of the Glasgow Depot which has been a delicate matter with those who are losing their jobs/transferring.

Elaine Holt has been out talking about the new timetable in recent days also. Just because this hasn't been plastered all over the press doesn't mean more details haven't been revealed. (Mainly being revealed to local regions and how the change applies to them)

Any clues as to where this might have been revealed? Certainly not on the East Coast website.

 

[silentone]

I did say details had been revealed to local regions where something applied to them. Elaine Holt has just revealed a new service to Harrogate.

It was also revealed there would be an additional service for Berwick, Alnmouth & Morpeth in the mornings. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10302076

There have been quite a lot of things revealed since February.

The weekend timetable wasn't due to be in-line for as big a shakeup.

 

[Gmac]

So what rolling stock are XC going to use for the extra diagrams to Glasgow, any ideas.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

So what rolling stock are XC going to use for the extra diagrams to Glasgow, any ideas.

Facts? No. I can't help with facts.

Guesses? Yep. The units mentioned so eloquently in post #107 by Failed_Unit above.
(and I don't just call it eloquent because the poster referred to mine at post #91. Though I could have done! But doesn't it bring a tear to the eye that my sadness at the loss of regular EC services to Glasgow was post number 91? [beware of the irony of the number])

 

[YorkshireRider]

They have also assured everyone that the catering vehicles will be done on time despite the apparent slow start.

Ive been told the 1st 3 sets will be out by the end of the month, its only taken 11 weeks to get them done, so 16 weeks to get the other 39 finished should be no problem at all.:roll:

I wait with baited breath

 

[Aictos]

Send in Elaine to sort it out!

 

[swt_passenger]

So what rolling stock are XC going to use for the extra diagrams to Glasgow, any ideas.

I've an idea that they'll have the couple of 220/221s, (that'll be all they need) because of the reintroduction of HSTs. It has generally been considered that the Southampton extensions needed an additional HST to run on weekdays, but I'm not so sure about that now. The reason is that AFAICS the diagrammed 'double set' that used to do Manchester - Bournemouth - Manchester on weekdays no longer runs. That unit could be the one covering the Southampton extensions, it used to depart Picc at 0927, arriving back at 1939. There may be other services that run doubled that could be singled, and XC services beyond Edinburgh are also being altered. Another option is just to get a few units off the depot earlier in the morning so they can start further away. This is what the TAA said:

The ‘transferred’ XC services to / from Glasgow will be formed from the extension of services from the West Country, the West Midlands and West Yorkshire which currently start / terminate at Edinburgh. These services will be operated by 4-car (Class 220) or 5-car (Class 221) rolling stock.
On weekdays, the extended ‘Down’ direction services from Edinburgh to Glasgow will depart at 05:33, 09:11, 11:11, 13:11, 15:11 and 17:11. Extended services in the ‘Up’ direction will start back from Glasgow Central at 07:50, 11:00, 13:00, 15:00 16:58 and 19:00.
The parties therefore propose to amend Table 5.1 (Passenger Train Slots) to reflect the revised quantum of XC services between Edinburgh and Glasgow, along with associated amendments to extensions north of Edinburgh (Dundee and Aberdeen) and to the south of Edinburgh (Dunbar).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was also revealed there would be an additional service for Berwick, Alnmouth & Morpeth in the mornings. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10302076

Notice it runs non stop from Newcastle according to the BBC, and also

"The 0559 will also connect with the four-hour Flying Scotsman at Newcastle, departing 0704, allowing commuters to arrive in London 0940."

Is that going to be the headline sub 4 hour train from Edinburgh which also runs non stop from Newcastle?

 

[tbtc]

There may be other services that run doubled that could be singled

I'm not sure there are any double-Voyager sets that could easily cope with a single Voyager!

XC services beyond Edinburgh are also being altered. Another option is just to get a few units off the depot earlier in the morning so they can start further away

Any changes there would only affect early/late trips - the existing services north/west of Waverley are only at the start/end of the day. The Glasgow extension needs one unit during the daytime (roughly hourly journey each way, on a bi-hourly frequency) which I don't think XC can spare.

Fair enough if East Coast managed to free up one HST (due to cutting the Glasgow work, not needing a diesel to run to Lincoln every two hours, and using 225s on the Skipton duty...) then that'd be a fair swap (a Voyager would cope with the Glasgow - ECML loadings, an HST would be more use to XC elsewhere and East Coast free up a 225). However, asking XC to stretch their resources thinner (whilst East Coast introduce additional services) is hard to accept!

 

[swt_passenger]

Any changes there would only affect early/late trips - the existing services north/west of Waverley are only at the start/end of the day. The Glasgow extension needs one unit during the daytime (roughly hourly journey each way, on a bi-hourly frequency) which I don't think XC can spare.

That's what I was trying to point out. The reintroduction of four daily HST diagrams must have made at least one or two Voyagers available, possibly more if they have replaced double diagrams; but I'm suggesting that the double unit on the Picc - Bomo that no longer runs has already (theoretically) provided for the Reading - Southampton's one unit/day.

Clearly they aren't going to introduce any extra stock - so it must be diagrammable within the existing fleet.

 

[tbtc]

That's what I was trying to point out. The reintroduction of four daily HST diagrams must have made at least one or two Voyagers available, possibly more if they have replaced double diagrams; but I'm suggesting that the double unit on the Picc - Bomo that no longer runs has already (theoretically) provided for the Reading - Southampton's one unit/day.

Clearly they aren't going to introduce any extra stock - so it must be diagrammable within the existing fleet.

Maybe if XC served London they'd get a better deal from the DFT? Instead they are expected to stretch their Voyagers further...

In hindsight maybe the Southampton extension shouldn't have happened - if the additional Voyager was needed for the Glasgow run.

 

[Failed Unit]

Notice it runs non stop from Newcastle according to the BBC, and also

"The 0559 will also connect with the four-hour Flying Scotsman at Newcastle, departing 0704, allowing commuters to arrive in London 0940."

Is that going to be the headline sub 4 hour train from Edinburgh which also runs non stop from Newcastle?

I think there is some confusion in the BBC article. I doubt the ex-Alnmouth service will run non-stop to London it will be the 0704 (ex 0540 Edinburgh). I guess the service from Northumberland will be overtaken somewhere on the way to London.

Interesting about the 1930 I wonder if it will go to Edinburgh or return to Newcastle.

I already like the idea of the 1900 to Edinburgh sometimes the 1800 is a little early. Don't think I will ever be on the 0540 unless Scotrail start the connections to Edinburgh much earlier than they do now.

 

[hello]

as of last month the 0609 bath spa - edinburgh became a single voyager where as it always used to be 2