B.R. Locomotives over Underground lines?

[OldandRambling]

In the 1970's, I worked for British Rail as a secondman, and I noticed a few of the diesel locomotives at our East London Stratford depot had an extra "stop****" attached to a brake tube fitted just above the rail level.

I was told these locos were so fitted to allow them to run over the "above ground" Central Line sections out towards Epping.

I was told it was an arrangement to facilitate track working on the Central line at night, but possibly before my time on the railway, as I never knew of this happening in my time there.

Is there any info on the web available about this, and where the line were joined?

 

[jopsuk]

there's a number of 20s that are tripcock fitted, and there's even apparently been (no idea if still are) three class 66s fitted, allowing them access to the Metropolitan lines and western Central line. I guess in your time there might still have been a connection at Leyton allowing Stratford locos access there?

 

[Roger1973]

As far as I'm aware, the goods yards on the former 'big railway' stations at the east end of the Central Line closed in the late 60s.

There were also a couple of Liverpool Street - Epping passenger trains early Sunday mornings in to the 60s (again, not sure when they ended - I have a 1961 underground timetable that shows them calling at Stratford (presume must have been ER platforms not the central line platforms), Leyton then all stations.

I can find an article "freight on the underground" on the LURS website (opens as PDF) which has more on freight workings to the Central line (and others)

1950-ish OS maps show a north/eastbound link to / from ER tracks just west of Leyton Station here (now under the A12) and a south/westbound link just before the central line goes in to tunnel here

 

[Dr_Paul]

I can find an article "freight on the underground" on the LURS website (opens as PDF) which has more on freight workings to the Central line (and others).

That's a fascinating article -- thanks for the pointer. I don't recall seeing any freight workings on the Underground when I was a kid, but I do recall the north to east curve north of Gunnersbury, the non-electrified connection at Turnham Green and the line going off around the back of West Kensington station, and my dad explained to me what they were for.

 

[150219]

I have been told by drivers who used to work the Kings Cross suburban lines that the Class 31s had tripcocks fitted.

The Class 66 locomotives that operate over the Metropolitan Line *do* have tripcocks fitted.

 

[Dr_Paul]

The Class 66 locomotives that operate over the Metropolitan Line *do* have tripcocks fitted.

That's brought back to my mind that I was driving down the Goldhawk Road a few years back and going under the District/Piccadilly lines near Stamford Brook Station I was surprised to see a Class 66 up on the bridge with a train of ballast wagons. I wondered how it got there: would it have come off the National Rail via West Ruislip, or via Harrow on the Hill and Rayners Lane, or via Gunnersbury? Any of those routes would have required some reversing.

 

[OldandRambling]

It was a few Type 31 locos that had the tripcocks fitted at Stratford.

To be honest, I was unaware of how much "sharing" of tube lines was undertaken, back in the day! Thanks to all for the input!

 

[Dstock7080]

That's brought back to my mind that I was driving down the Goldhawk Road a few years back and going under the District/Piccadilly lines near Stamford Brook Station I was surprised to see a Class 66 up on the bridge with a train of ballast wagons. I wondered how it got there: would it have come off the National Rail via West Ruislip, or via Harrow on the Hill and Rayners Lane, or via Gunnersbury? Any of those routes would have required some reversing.

via Gunnersbury

 

[Magdalia]

In the 1970's, I worked for British Rail as a secondman, and I noticed a few of the diesel locomotives at our East London Stratford depot had an extra "stop****" attached to a brake tube fitted just above the rail level.

They are named tripcocks, stopcocks are for plumbers.

Stratford had tripcock fitted locos for both the eastern end of the Central Line and the East London line via Wapping. These included the D84xx Type 1s plus some D82xx Type 1s and Brush Type 2s.

There were also a couple of Liverpool Street - Epping passenger trains early Sunday mornings in to the 60s (again, not sure when they ended - I have a 1961 underground timetable that shows them calling at Stratford (presume must have been ER platforms not the central line platforms), Leyton then all stations.

The DMUs that worked the night trains to/from Epping were presumably also tripcock fitted. These were definitely still running in 1965 but not sure how long after that.

I have been told by drivers who used to work the Kings Cross suburban lines that the Class 31s had tripcocks fitted.

It was a few Type 31 locos that had the tripcocks fitted at Stratford.

All 55 of the Brush Type 2s delivered to the GN at Hornsey/Finsbury Park were tripcock fitted from new, mainly to work commuter trains to/from Moorgate via the Widened Lines. Freight on the Widened Lines was worked by BR Type 2s because of weight restrictions at Blackfriars.

D5622-27 were also tripcock fitted from new and first allocated to GE depots. Stratford then got some ex Finsbury Park tripcock fitted Brush Type 2s on reallocation in 1961.

Quite a few Brush Type 2s retained operational tripcock equipment right up to GN suburban electrification.

I can find an article "freight on the underground" on the LURS website (opens as PDF) which has more on freight workings to the Central line (and others)

Thanks for this. I've not seen it before and need to read it properly!

 

[OldandRambling]

They are named tripcocks, stopcocks are for plumbers.

Ah, so when as a secondman I was coupling locos to air braked trains, and opening the stopcocks, I was doing a plumbers job?

 

[150219]

The DMUs that worked the night trains to/from Epping were presumably also tripcock fitted. These were definitely still running in 1965 but not sure how long after that.

Whilst I can't say for certain that the Stratford DMUs were fitted with tripcocks, I do know that some of the Class 121 DMUs were fitted for the North Acton to Viaduct Junction line. 55022 still had this original equipment partially fitted when it was transferred from Derby to Aylesbury, although later replaced/renewed for operating over the Metropolitan Line in the mid 2000s.

 

[Robert Ambler]

Quite a number of unit and loco types have been fitted with Tripcocks in the past for use on LU infrastructure. Currently however only certain class 20s and 66s are allowed to operate on LU infrastructure so far as I am aware. They have a note on their conformance paperwork (for the Network Rail registration) to note that they can be so fitted. The various Chiltern units used on the Harrow on the Hill to Amersham section also have tripcocks of course.

The tripcock is technically foul of the current NR structure gauge (operating arm when in the active position) so there are certain use restrictions when it is fitted and it is often removed when not required.

 

[Doomotron]

It's not a locomotive but SWR runs/did run limited services over the District Line (a parliamentary service I believe).

 

[swt_passenger]

It's not a locomotive but SWR runs/did run limited services over the District Line (a parliamentary service I believe).

It’s not strictly parliamentary, there are far more ECS paths than passenger which would have to run anyway because it’s the preferred route to the depot in the down direction. Todays RTT shows 12 x ECS but only one passenger service.

The few passenger services are there to allow traincrew from outlying depots to maintain traction and route knowledge for diversions.

In the context of recent posts SWR units do not use the LU train stop system hence the route having AWS/TPWS as well.

 

[Taunton]

Among others, the Western Region "Suburban" platforms at Paddington, 13-16, used to be mixed usage with the Underground Hammersmith & City line until the late 1960s remodelling. Because of the Underground central 4th rail, and the GWR-pattern ATC/AWS shoe, this had to be clipped up when entering the electrified tracks. The 61xx tank locos used on local services had this, which carried on to the Pressed Steel modernisation plan diesel units. There were a few diesel multiple units later allocated there which did not have this facility, and had bold branding on the inside cab roof that they must not work into the Suburban platforms.

 

[John Webb]

Three of us at secondary school in the New Cross area during our fourth year (circa 1961) would take our sandwiches up to New Cross Gate station at lunchtime for a break from the school and some fresh air. One sunny day we were astounded to see the smaller of the Liverpool Street pilot locos, the J69/1 68619, come chugging along the Metropolitan Line with half-a-dozen vans in tow which it shunted into a siding before returning northwards. What a shame we didn't have a camera to hand!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Whilst I can't say for certain that the Stratford DMUs were fitted with tripcocks, I do know that some of the Class 121 DMUs were fitted for the North Acton to Viaduct Junction line. 55022 still had this original equipment partially fitted when it was transferred from Derby to Aylesbury, although later replaced/renewed for operating over the Metropolitan Line in the mid 2000s.

Which is Viaduct Junction?

 

[PeterC]

There were also a couple of Liverpool Street - Epping passenger trains early Sunday mornings in to the 60s (again, not sure when they ended - I have a 1961 underground timetable that shows them calling at Stratford (presume must have been ER platforms not the central line platforms), Leyton then all stations.

I have a February 1970 timetable that shows that service. According to a thread on the District Dave forum the service ended later that year.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the Liverpool Street to Epping Sunday services were run through the 1960s by one of the Stratford-based high power Rolls-Royce 3-car suburban sets. I don't know whether the plaforms were set at the "compromise height", like on the Watford DC line, or at tube height (as nowadays), which would have put these trains way up high.

The goods yards along the line, and others around the Underground network, handled principally domestic coal inwards, for local merchants, which disappeared in London almost overnight around 1960 when smokeless zones came in, and in Essex shortly afterwards. The freights from Temple Mills were handled by steam in the 1950s, and various diesels, particularly the D8200 type, in the 1960s.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I believe the Liverpool Street to Epping Sunday services were run through the 1960s by one of the Stratford-based high power Rolls-Royce 3-car suburban sets. I don't know whether the plaforms were set at the "compromise height", like on the Watford DC line, or at tube height (as nowadays), which would have put these trains way up high.

The goods yards along the line, and others around the Underground network, handled principally domestic coal inwards, for local merchants, which disappeared in London almost overnight around 1960 when smokeless zones came in, and in Essex shortly afterwards. The freights from Temple Mills were handled by steam in the 1950s, and various diesels, particularly the D8200 type, in the 1960s.

Epping had a block train of something like 40 vanfits of fertiliser arrive one evening at Temple Mills - they dribbled them up in rakes of 5 or so on the tripper. Over enthusiastic freight salesman perhaps.....?

 

[Taunton]

Epping had a block train of something like 40 vanfits of fertiliser arrive one evening at Temple Mills - they dribbled them up in rakes of 5 or so on the tripper. Over enthusiastic freight salesman perhaps.....?

I'd actually say very competent freight salesman, but then I'm from a different background ...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'd actually say very competent freight salesman, but then I'm from a different background ...

Business is business as they say and all welcome - someone else could worry about wagon utilisation , let alone possibly bringing the Central Line to a stand by saturating the modest yard.

In extreme cases like major incidents on the Met line - BR provided the OOC crane , and I am sure any handy loco was used to access via the West Ruislip connection without worrying about tripcocks ,but gauge clearance would be worried about. Think one incident was the collision near Kilburn in the 1980's.......

 

[AlbertBeale]

I believe the Liverpool Street to Epping Sunday services were run through the 1960s by one of the Stratford-based high power Rolls-Royce 3-car suburban sets. I don't know whether the plaforms were set at the "compromise height", like on the Watford DC line, or at tube height (as nowadays), which would have put these trains way up high.

The goods yards along the line, and others around the Underground network, handled principally domestic coal inwards, for local merchants, which disappeared in London almost overnight around 1960 when smokeless zones came in, and in Essex shortly afterwards. The freights from Temple Mills were handled by steam in the 1950s, and various diesels, particularly the D8200 type, in the 1960s.

Thinking of coal trains. There were the ones which used the viaduct between Rayners Lane and South Harrow on the Piccadilly line when the gasworks still operated - up to at the '60s I guess. They must have arrived at Rayners Lane via Harrow-on-the-Hill and the BR connections there ... or maybe via the BR/Central at South Ruislip and the connection between the Central sidings and the Met/Picc Line near there at West Ruislip. They used the s/bound line from Rayners Lane, but before SH (though within sight of it) there was a high-level turn-off from where they could drop the coal to the works below.

I have no idea what locos would have been used (even though I presume I saw them when I was a kid, visiting family near there) - though presumably BR rather than something of LT's.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Onto the system at Finchley Road I think (presumably it was Notts gas coal via Cricklewood BR) , and probably a class 25 traction.

Other good freight flows were the long standing meat trains via the Circle Line to Smithfield , and of course the exotic coal to Kensington High St , which amazing to think about had a big yard - now of course, worth many millions after redevelopment.

 

[Dstock7080]

or maybe via the BR/Central at South Ruislip and the connection between the Central sidings and the Met/Picc Line near there at West Ruislip.

Ruislip siding and connection into West Ruislip depot were only commissioned in the mid-1970s

 

[njr001]

There was a Metroland & Quainton Railtour in 2019 with a class 33 the LT 4TC set and an LT Liveried Class 20 - to add another class. Also I recall one early morning service from Marylebone with a Class 47 sometime between 1986 and the 1990's which the sound often woke me up as it left Rickmansworth.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Onto the system at Finchley Road I think (presumably it was Notts gas coal via Cricklewood BR) , and probably a class 25 traction.

Other good freight flows were the long standing meat trains via the Circle Line to Smithfield , and of course the exotic coal to Kensington High St , which amazing to think about had a big yard - now of course, worth many millions after redevelopment.

Finchely Road? If coming off the main line at Cricklewood, presumably you'd go towards Harlesden, then a reverse to pick up Chiltern tracks at Neasden? In which case, then a double reverse at Harrow/Hill to get onto LU tracks. Or were there other connections back then?

 

[Metroman62]

I have a web page with some pictures of locomotives around Amersham on the Metropolitan line

Unusual Trains At Amersham

 

[stuu]

Finchely Road? If coming off the main line at Cricklewood, presumably you'd go towards Harlesden, then a reverse to pick up Chiltern tracks at Neasden? In which case, then a double reverse at Harrow/Hill to get onto LU tracks. Or were there other connections back then?

There was a goods yard between the Met and MML where the O2 centre car park is, with a direct connection to both lines

 

[AlbertBeale]

There was a goods yard between the Met and MML where the O2 centre car park is, with a direct connection to both lines

Thanks! I had no idea there was ever a connection between those two routes between West Hampstead and Finchley Road - how useful! During what period was that in existence?