Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[Mojo]

For the issue with the gateline between the DLR platforms & Liz Line platforms at Custom House, could it be resolved by changing the readers on the gates to be pink rather than yellow? Pink to 'confirm' route for any passengers coming from the DLR platforms so they don't get charged a max fare for an incomplete journey and to allow a new journey to start for anybody arriving without having previously touched in?

They would really have to be set up as equivalent to 'continuation exit' readers, which you see at certain stations. But I'm not sure this can be done for barriers.

I would agree that it doesn’t need any validators but could simply be accomplished by some technical changes to the system.

It was done for many years at Stratford, where the Jubilee line had its own gateline, inside the gateline for the main station, so any customer using the Jubilee line would need to pass through the gateline if they were interchanging from any other line (and touch in/out twice in succession on two separate gatelines if entering from the street).

Similarly, when NR had gatelines on the platforms at Finsbury Park, albeit not initially, the station was set up in a similar way, to effectively ignore intermediate taps. For instance a customer could touch in on the LU gateline, and would then touch a second time on the NR gateline. IIRC when the NR barriers at platform level were initially installed by FCC, you used to have to touch out on the LU passenger validators and then touch back in again on the FCC barriers, or out on the barriers and back in again in the other direction.

 

[ubayd1847]

If you are at canning town why on earth would you go two stops on the jub line when you can go two shorter stops on the DLR and change at Custom House within the same station.

If you are at Canada Water why on earth would you not use the Overground to Whitechapel and then change within the station.

Interchanging at Canary Wharf is completely pointless unless you arrive on the DLR

DLR to custom house is every 10 minutes, also in a backwards direction. It just makes sense for there to have been an easier interchange at Canary Wharf its a missed opportunity honestly in the name of 'only a destination' for locals its a lot more than that...

It seems a "Continuation Entry" is the one to go for. I'm interested in this one because I got it at Custom House on opening day. It's not quite apparent how all this never got picked up in the system design or the trials. Did nobody use real Oysters/Contactless in the testing and trials?


Because the Jubilee is every couple of minutes, while to Custom House is both wrong-direction non-intuitive, and only every 8 or 10 minutes.

As TfL are only too aware, significant numbers of travellers take what train geeks would regard as inefficient journeys. The real issue is calling all the stations Canary Wharf, which for many implies a connection between them. It will get more pronounced when the footbridge at Poplar DLR has a couple of extra sections put in, making it the nearest and most convenient DLR station for Canary Wharf Crossrail.

do you know when the footbridge at poplar will come, as I currently have to get the dlr to poplar to change to Crossrail. I can see the bridge has already started poking out from Crossrail place.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

So if the Jubilee line is every couple of minutes stay on it. Change at London Bridge for Moorgate and Farringdon, Waterloo for Tottenham Court Road and Baker St for Paddington. I still don’t see Jubilee to Elizabeth line at Canary Wharf to be a major interchange.

 

[Taunton]

DLR to custom house is every 10 minutes, also in a backwards direction. It just makes sense for there to have been an easier interchange at Canary Wharf its a missed opportunity honestly in the name of 'only a destination' for locals its a lot more than that...


do you know when the footbridge at poplar will come, as I currently have to get the dlr to poplar to change to Crossrail. I can see the bridge has already started poking out from Crossrail place.

I actually timed it quicker to go from East India DLR to Custom House, then back westwards on Crossrail. But it does take you into fare zone 3, and because of the gates at Custom House that gets picked up.

However, for your route, if there's a Stratford-Canary Wharf due in 3 minutes or less when you get to Poplar, wait for that to West India Quay - it'll be quicker.

The intervening spare ground, which was for years the Crossrail work site (I remember all the excavations being heaped up there before removal by barge, they changed colour as they worked down through the boulder clay into the chalk), had one, maybe more, proposal to put a temporary scaffolding walkway across it to connect the two. In the last month or two there's been action to build a major office tower there, which the Poplar walkway would pass through, but we feel it will be several years before that's complete.

 

[plugwash]

Though the expanded Thameslink destinations from the Thameslink Programme, allow easy interchange at Farringdon with the Elizabeth Line. Skipping the need to interchange at Kings Cross.

More so after the Elizibeth line is properly integrated.

Right now you have to change at Paddington whatever you do. So you may as well get the Circle/H&C to Kings Cross St Pancras and get the full choice of trains rather than taking the lizzie to Farringdon and only getting a subset.

 

[mrmartin]

I'm not entirely sure what could be done about the CW interchanges given the very deep piles for the various buildings there. Perhaps some sort of long underground walkway with a travelator at best?

But as people have pointed out I actually don't see that much interchange usage there in the grand scheme of things and potentially having the stations spread out in the long term serves the area better? Esp when the site to the north of the EL station is fully complete - will by handy for many people?

 

[Basil Jet]

The intervening spare ground, which was for years the Crossrail work site (I remember all the excavations being heaped up there before removal by barge, they changed colour as they worked down through the boulder clay into the chalk)

London Clay, probably. Boulder Clay is a product of glaciation, and the last ice age only reached as far south as Finchley, so you won't find Boulder Clay south of there, I think. (Not a geologist.)

 

[MikeWM]

First trip yesterday evening, Paddington to Liverpool Street. Didn't have time to do anything else unfortunately - will be going back over the long weekend to explore some more.

First thoughts : architecturally very impressive, trains very quiet, quick, feels very slick. Rather quiet in passenger terms at 8pm on a Saturday, but its only the first week and people will need to relearn habits.

I think the real downside is the lack of convenient interchanges to other lines. Everything seems to be quite a long way away from everything else - certainly much more like the Jubilee line than the Victoria. (At least that is the impression I get from what I've read - as above, I still need to try it out for myself in most cases).

The other issue is that I can't think of any journey I actually do in London - and I do quite a lot of varied journeys in London - where it would be useful and/or quicker to take the Elizabeth Line than the line(s) I already take. The lack of interchange with the Piccadilly and Victoria lines doesn't help much when arriving at Kings Cross, for example. But I suppose a big part of the point is to benefit from other lines (particularly the Central) being less busy.

 

[ubayd1847]

I actually timed it quicker to go from East India DLR to Custom House, then back westwards on Crossrail. But it does take you into fare zone 3, and because of the gates at Custom House that gets picked up.

However, for your route, if there's a Stratford-Canary Wharf due in 3 minutes or less when you get to Poplar, wait for that to West India Quay - it'll be quicker.

The intervening spare ground, which was for years the Crossrail work site (I remember all the excavations being heaped up there before removal by barge, they changed colour as they worked down through the boulder clay into the chalk), had one, maybe more, proposal to put a temporary scaffolding walkway across it to connect the two. In the last month or two there's been action to build a major office tower there, which the Poplar walkway would pass through, but we feel it will be several years before that's complete.

yeahhh I do that as well but also increases the cap not even just the normal fare so yeahhh

I actually timed it quicker to go from East India DLR to Custom House, then back westwards on Crossrail. But it does take you into fare zone 3, and because of the gates at Custom House that gets picked up.

However, for your route, if there's a Stratford-Canary Wharf due in 3 minutes or less when you get to Poplar, wait for that to West India Quay - it'll be quicker.

The intervening spare ground, which was for years the Crossrail work site (I remember all the excavations being heaped up there before removal by barge, they changed colour as they worked down through the boulder clay into the chalk), had one, maybe more, proposal to put a temporary scaffolding walkway across it to connect the two. In the last month or two there's been action to build a major office tower there, which the Poplar walkway would pass through, but we feel it will be several years before that's complete.

yeah so far there's been a Stratford to canary wharf dlr every single time I've been so that's always convenient.

thank you!!

 

[LLivery]

TfL is reporting 1m passengers in the first 5 days in the core, 2m cross the route. Not bad at all.

BBC London

More than a million journeys have been made on the central section of the Elizabeth line in its first five days.
Since opening on Tuesday, more than two million trips have been made across the whole line, which links Reading and Heathrow to Shenfield and Abbey Wood, Transport for London (TfL) said.

Also first weekend of half term and things felt general quite quiet yesterday with lots of people away.

Maybe those few hours were just the height of shopping hours! I'd like to see how it's impacted the Central line

 

[JaJaWa]

Geoff Marshall
@geofftech
A new poster has appeared at Farringdon Purple …

5:16 PM · May 30, 2022·Tweetbot for iΟS

https://twitter.com/geofftech/status/1531202787161296897

 

[Horizon22]

So if the Jubilee line is every couple of minutes stay on it. Change at London Bridge for Moorgate and Farringdon, Waterloo for Tottenham Court Road and Baker St for Paddington. I still don’t see Jubilee to Elizabeth line at Canary Wharf to be a major interchange.

It won’t be unless you’re coming into Waterloo or that part of London and want to go to custom house / Abbey wood which isn’t going to be a large flow.

More so after the Elizibeth line is properly integrated.

Right now you have to change at Paddington whatever you do. So you may as well get the Circle/H&C to Kings Cross St Pancras and get the full choice of trains rather than taking the lizzie to Farringdon and only getting a subset.

Yes I think Paddington will have less arduous interchanges with through running. For example the Bakerloo link won’t see much use yet as those people are still arriving on the High Level station and just walking down. People going around the north side of H&C however will end up having a bit of a walk, or will change at Baker Street or Farringdon.

 

[cambsy]

Im not surprised 2 million passenger journeys across the Elizabeth line and one million in the core, have been made, with what I saw on Saturday, with the crowds which were flocking on Tom it, particularly, Paddington and Liverpool Street, and the Comic Con at the Excel center, im not surprised it a roaring sucess. And really happy it is.

 

[3141]

I think the real downside is the lack of convenient interchanges to other lines. Everything seems to be quite a long way away from everything else - certainly much more like the Jubilee line than the Victoria. (At least that is the impression I get from what I've read - as above, I still need to try it out for myself in most cases).

That's inevitable as the number of lines to interchange between increases at a station. The Victoria Line could be built with cross-platform interchange at many of its stops (they later changed the description to "same-level interchange"). If there's a third line at a station it would be extremely difficult to provide same-level interchange between all three of them. Fitting a new line into a space already occupied by other lines gets increasingly difficult, even more so with the EL as the tunnels are built to a larger gauge. There's a lot going on under London in addition to railway lines.

When changing at Tottenham Court Road last week from EL to Central Line I was amused to see, as I walked along a fairly long passageway, that the pillars in the middle had signs with the station's name attached to them - as if the interchange was so time-consuming you might need reminding where you were!

 

[MikeWM]

That's inevitable as the number of lines to interchange between increases at a station. The Victoria Line could be built with cross-platform interchange at many of its stops (they later changed the description to "same-level interchange"). If there's a third line at a station it would be extremely difficult to provide same-level interchange between all three of them. Fitting a new line into a space already occupied by other lines gets increasingly difficult, even more so with the EL as the tunnels are built to a larger gauge. There's a lot going on under London in addition to railway lines.

Indeed - and I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons why it wasn't possible to provide 'better' interchanges to the Bakerloo at Paddington or to the Central at Bond Street and/or Tottenham Court Road, but on a 2D map it does look like the lines align quite well at those locations to allow a (theoretical) same-level interchange. In the case of the Jubilee, almost every station is at a severe angle from the platforms of the previously-existing lines, so it is somewhat more obvious why that didn't happen when that was constucted.

When changing at Tottenham Court Road last week from EL to Central Line I was amused to see, as I walked along a fairly long passageway, that the pillars in the middle had signs with the station's name attached to them - as if the interchange was so time-consuming you might need reminding where you were!

From what I've read, this seems like the most obvious example. The platforms seem pretty close to one another 'as the crow flies' but apparently the interchange is rather lengthy and involves doubling back on oneself. Did I read that there were plans for a more direct connection between the platforms but this was dropped at some point?

On a different note - now that West India Quay appears to be the closest interchange for the new Canary Wharf station, does it make sense to continue skipping this stop on Bank-Lewisham DLR trains? I was never quite sure why they started doing that in the first place, but it seems to be even less logical now.

 

[swt_passenger]

From what I've read, this seems like the most obvious example. The platforms seem pretty close to one another 'as the crow flies' but apparently the interchange is rather lengthy and involves doubling back on oneself. Did I read that there were plans for a more direct connection between the platforms but this was dropped at some point?

Yes, you quite possibly saw the drawing in post #319 in this thread which showed the original intended connection.

 

[MikeWM]

Yes, you quite possibly saw the drawing in post #319 in this thread which showed the original intended connection.

That'll be it, thanks Makes sense it would have been earlier in this thread, probably should have thought of that!

 

[swt_passenger]

That'll be it, thanks Makes sense it would have been earlier in this thread, probably should have thought of that!

I’m not convinced the interchange is needed at all the stations when the routes run in parallel. I think that’s what the designers must have eventually concluded. I think it’s been pointed out somewhere that at some stage the platform “vertical route diagrams” at some new Crossrail stations didn’t show a Central interchange at Tottenham Court Rd either.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I’m not convinced the interchange is needed at all the stations when the routes run in parallel. I think that’s what the designers must have eventually concluded. I think it’s been pointed out somewhere that at some stage the platform “vertical route diagrams” at some new Crossrail stations didn’t show a Central interchange at Farringdon either.

Do you mean a SSL interchange, not a Central?

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you mean a SSL interchange, not a Central?

No sorry, that’s my error I meant Tottenham Court Rd. I’ll amend my post.

 

[ijmad]

On a different note - now that West India Quay appears to be the closest interchange for the new Canary Wharf station, does it make sense to continue skipping this stop on Bank-Lewisham DLR trains? I was never quite sure why they started doing that in the first place, but it seems to be even less logical now.

They skip stop because there is no-longer a southbound platform at West India Quay on the Bank-Lewisham route. When they rebuilt Poplar junction into the non-conflicting flying configuration space was tight enough that the track is now still rising up to meet the old level when it passes next to West India Quay.

This Google Earth link illustrates the problem neatly - the curvy piece of track is the track the southbound Bank-Lewisham service runs on after passing underneath the line to Poplar. At some in the past they used to use the flat junction during off peak periods but the DLR's off peak frequency bumps means they now use the flyunder all the time.

For Northbound services this is not a problem as the line doesn't need to pass under anything to merge with the Westbound to Bank.

As I mentioned in #444, eventually the Stratford to Canary Wharf service will become Stratford to Lewisham, which will make the station much more useful for Southbound passengers, although by that time the bridge to Poplar may be in place too.

 

[JonathanH]

On a different note - now that West India Quay appears to be the closest interchange for the new Canary Wharf station, does it make sense to continue skipping this stop on Bank-Lewisham DLR trains? I was never quite sure why they started doing that in the first place, but it seems to be even less logical now.

Can't really be done - the geometry of the line from Bank doesn't allow it to fit alongside platform 1.

is the DLR westferry to West India Quay section of track ever used

DLR Bank to Lewisham trains bypass West India Quay via a flyunder but there is a section of track that would allow then to go via West India Quay Platform 2 is that ever used for passenger services?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[AlbertBeale]

No sorry, that’s my error I meant Tottenham Court Rd. I’ll amend my post.

Though isn't it also the case that at one stage Liverpool Street was going to be promoted as the main Underground link with Crossrail, and Farringdon primarily just for the Thameslink connection? Or do I have that wrong?

 

[swt_passenger]

Though isn't it also the case that at one stage Liverpool Street was going to be promoted as the main Underground link with Crossrail, and Farringdon primarily just for the Thameslink connection? Or do I have that wrong?

That’s not something I’d heard before.

 

[MikeWM]

They skip stop because there is no-longer a southbound platform at West India Quay on the Bank-Lewisham route. When they rebuilt Poplar junction into the non-conflicting flying configuration space was tight enough that the track is now still rising up to meet the old level when it passes next to West India Quay.

The old (conflicting) route via Platform 2 is still there though, I believe? Indeed for a time I recall services at some times of day still served WIQ while at other times of day they didn't.

Can't really be done - the geometry of the line from Bank doesn't allow it to fit alongside platform 1.

is the DLR westferry to West India Quay section of track ever used

DLR Bank to Lewisham trains bypass West India Quay via a flyunder but there is a section of track that would allow then to go via West India Quay Platform 2 is that ever used for passenger services?

www.railforums.co.uk

...as mentioned in that thread. Some years back I regularly went to the Cineworld at WIQ for which WIQ was the closest station, and Canary Wharf an irritating double-back. Over time it became harder to get a train that actually stopped at WIQ. (Though in the end I found Westferry was a good alternative).

I suppose this is one of these oddities that crops up from time to time and now has history behind it, but naively it does seem rather odd that what is apparently the 'best' station for interchange is served by trains in three directions but not the fourth.

 

[ijmad]

The old (conflicting) route via Platform 2 is still there though, I believe? Indeed for a time I recall services at some times of day still served WIQ while at other times of day they didn't.

It is, and it used to be used during evenings/weekends, but these days it's never used in normal passenger service as even off peak the frequency is now too high to allow for the conflicting moves

 

[Cbob]

What's the recommended interchange station from the Metropolitan line coming from Metroland?

Farringdon, Moorgate or Liverpool St?
Or carry on sub surface to Whitechapel?
Or wait for Bond St to open, change from Met to Jubilee then change to Crossrail at Bond St?

 

[ctom_s]

What's the recommended interchange station from the Metropolitan line coming from Metroland?

Farringdon, Moorgate or Liverpool St?
Or carry on sub surface to Whitechapel?
Or wait for Bond St to open, change from Met to Jubilee then change to Crossrail at Bond St?

I think Moorgate is probably the best of these going Eastbound having done them all. Farringdon you've got to go up and over everything and changing at Liverpool Street means you're going one station further. Coming back westbound I think Moorgate is still best.

The interchange at Whitechapel sucks and would also mean changing for a H&C

I think when bond street opens that may be the best option of all but I don't know what the interchange will be like

 

[Taunton]

Went deliberately through Custom House again today, and again it's a change of the information and announcements every day about what to do there.

However, there are now Elizabeth platform announcements that "To continue by DLR you must go to the exit gates and tap out". OK, unfortunately it does not say that you must then tap in for the DLR, which has no gates and a somewhat concealed card reader along the way, pointing sideways, at a non-obvious point, not aided by there being an overhead sign above it saying "There are no ticket facilities here". So I guess we will now have a lot of people just boarding the DLR without tapping in again, just as they have always been used to for years at Canning Town, and getting fined. Or they tap out on the DLR reader at destination, it registers that as a tap in, and hits them with a maximum fare penalty.

The fixed notice pointing down from the mezzanine to the Elizabeth platform is positioned above the escalator which has only been used for coming up. Fortunately most passengers have enough common sense to spot the treads are running in the opposite direction. Meanwhile further along the actual down escalator has a fixed notice point you onwards to the platform, to where there are only steps at the end. I presume someone from Health & Safety signed this one off.

You have to wonder if those responsible for the gobbledegook lawyer-speak notices, the multiple mumbled and conflicting PA announcements, or the additional staff (though not at the DLR reader) who have seemingly been given no training in how to describe all this, have ever been to the station. Certainly I witnessed one supervisor who seemed to be giving their own gabbled version of the training, inaccurate in itself, to some bemused contract staff (I think they are termed "ambassadors"), where a 2-minute briefing constituted the training.

Out of an abundance of charity, I offer my services, free of charge, to TfL, to develop some accurate notices and staff instructions describing the ticketing and passenger flow quagmire there, accurately and plainly ...

Frank Pick must be turning in his grave.

 

[IslandDweller]

"On a different note - now that West India Quay appears to be the closest interchange for the new Canary Wharf station, does it make sense to continue skipping this stop on Bank-Lewisham DLR trains? I was never quite sure why they started doing that in the first place, but it seems to be even less logical now."
Trains from Bank to Lewisham skip WIQ by using the (fairly) new bypass line that avoids any coonflicting junction - there is no way trains using that track can stop at WIQ. The only way to reintroduce a stop would be to revert to the old track, with two conflicting junctions, not going to happen because you would re-introduce conflicts/delays that the new flypast line is specifically built to remove