EMR Class 170 updates

[SteveyBee131]

To my knowledge yesterday was the first time a 3-car came to Grimsby Town (and indeed Cleethorpes) in passenger service with EMR. One made it up last year, but only on test/crew training, and since then we've only had 2-cars up this way until now.

 

[QSK19]

The former ScotRail 3-car units appear to be treading new ground, whether intended or accidentally. № 419 had a diagram on the Grimsby Town to Leicester yesterday, and 418 had a different one today.

418 has previously run the Lincoln-Leicester route last year - attached is screenshot of a video that I took on 2 June 2021 at Sileby.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2022 ==

To my knowledge yesterday was the first time a 3-car came to Grimsby Town (and indeed Cleethorpes) in passenger service with EMR. One made it up last year, but only on test/crew training, and since then we've only had 2-cars up this way until now.

The one in the attached pic was in passenger service; though can’t remember whether came from Grimsby Town or Lincoln.

 

[IanXC]

Problem is the incompatibility with the 170s for multiple workings, which is a solution retaining the 158s provides. A topic for another thread, but they’re far better off with an operator such as GWR or Chiltern anyways.

If Northern do secure the 175 fleet it would surely be for the Heaton/North East fleet, for which it is almost perfectly sized, so compatibility issues are probably less of an issue than they would be for GWR or Chiltern.

 

[43055]

The former ScotRail 3-car units appear to be treading new ground, whether intended or accidentally. № 419 had a diagram on the Grimsby Town to Leicester yesterday, and 418 had a different one today.

There was also a 3 car on the Crewe - Newark last week for 3 days. Maybe the effect of 638 coming into service?

 

[43102EMR]

If Northern do secure the 175 fleet it would surely be for the Heaton/North East fleet, for which it is almost perfectly sized, so compatibility issues are probably less of an issue than they would be for GWR or Chiltern.

DfT documentation seems to suggest Chiltern… but that’s a conversation for the 175 speculative thread.

 

[LowLevel]

3 cars have been to Grimsby and Cleethorpes on various occasions. They don't stray from their booked work often but if they do get displaced they can work around a bit before ending back on their usual work. 416 went to Norwich on Saturday on the 1133 for example.

Now that 170 traction knowledge is pretty much universal 170s do cover 15x diagrams if required as well.

 

[Mugby]

3-car sets are sorely needed on the Crewe service on Saturdays particularly because the two busiest services of the day haven't been restored to the timetable: To Crewe, a 2 hour gap between the 1048 and 1248 ex-Derby. From Crewe, a 2 hour gap between the 1712 and the 1909.

There's been an explosion in leisure travel on Saturdays this year, people changing at Stoke for Manchester, Crewe for Liverpool, scores of people from each direction to Uttoxeter for Alton Towers, Races and various other events at Uttoxeter Racecourse.

I travelled back from Crewe on the first Sunday train, the 1407, a couple of weeks ago, a 158 and people were left behind at Uttoxeter.
It's a bit ironic to think we regularly had 3-car 120s on the route under BR forty years ago!

 

[IceBlue]

3-car sets are sorely needed on the Crewe service on Saturdays particularly because the two busiest services of the day haven't been restored to the timetable: To Crewe, a 2 hour gap between the 1048 and 1248 ex-Derby. From Crewe, a 2 hour gap between the 1712 and the 1909.

There's been an explosion in leisure travel on Saturdays this year, people changing at Stoke for Manchester, Crewe for Liverpool, scores of people from each direction to Uttoxeter for Alton Towers, Races and various other events at Uttoxeter Racecourse.

I travelled back from Crewe on the first Sunday train, the 1407, a couple of weeks ago, a 158 and people were left behind at Uttoxeter.
It's a bit ironic to think we regularly had 3-car 120s on the route under BR forty years ago!

Completely agree, almost every time I use this route the 2 cars are well loaded, and that's rarely at peak times. With that said, I doubt it'll happen anytime soon with the 3 cars required for Robin Hood line use due to their platforms.

Does 2x170 use require a conductor in both units? Even then this isn't ideal due to Blythe Bridge's platform (at least in the Stoke direction, not sure towards Derby) only facilitiating 2 coaches meaning only 1 unit would be platformed, though EMR do run 2x222s to Long Eaton with a simular situation.

 

[Snow1964]

The DfT has today published the May 2022 Abellio East Midlands Franchise agreement (as updated)

It is 800+ pages long, but about page 200 in tables are various proposed rolling stock, and here is a summary (includes changes since 2020)

class 156, 18 vehicles (note 8) replacing class 153
class 180, 20 vehicles, replacing 2+6 HST
class 170/2, 46 vehicles (note 9) replacing 156s and half 158s
class 170/3, 15 vehicles (note 10) replacing class 153
class 170/3, 12 vehicles (note 11), remove remaining 15x
class 171/2, 20 vehicles (note 12), remove remaining 15x
class 171/3, 6 vehicles (note 13), remove remaining 15x

also 23 HST power car, 78 trailers,(note 14)
and the 84 class 360s and 165 bi-modes

notes
8. Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the East Anglia franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise.
9. Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the West Midlands franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise.
10. Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the ScotRail franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise.
11. Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise.
East Midlands Franchise Page 200 of 839 Appendix 1 to Schedule 1.6 Agreement
12. Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise.
13. Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise.
14. Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the North Eastern Railway franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1090104/abellio-east-midlands-rail-contract.pdf

 

[XCTurbostar]

The DfT has today published the May 2022 Abellio East Midlands Franchise agreement (as updated)

It is 800+ pages long, but about page 200 in tables are various proposed rolling stock, and here is a summary (includes changes since 2020)

class 156, 18 vehicles (note 8) replacing class 153
class 180, 20 vehicles, replacing 2+6 HST
class 170/2, 46 vehicles (note 9) replacing 156s and half 158s
class 170/3, 15 vehicles (note 10) replacing class 153
class 170/3, 12 vehicles (note 11), remove remaining 15x
class 171/2, 20 vehicles (note 12), remove remaining 15x
class 171/3, 6 vehicles (note 13), remove remaining 15x

also 23 HST power car, 78 trailers,(note 14)
and the 84 class 360s and 165 bi-modes

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1090104/abellio-east-midlands-rail-contract.pdf

It’s dated 2019 on mine..

 

[LowLevel]

The 170 fleet now clearly states refurbishment of seating rather than replacement, so presumably that's a cost saving.

 

[WesternLancer]

The 170 fleet now clearly states refurbishment of seating rather than replacement, so presumably that's a cost saving.

That may be not much more than new fabric?

 

[fgwrich]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if it is the case. With the exception of the Lazzerini seats, the Chapmans aren't that bad. Total seat replacement always seemed one of those nice to have, not necessarily need jobs - though I do get it would have kept a consistent image across the EMR fleet.

 

[Starmill]

That may be not much more than new fabric?

I would expect new cushions and carpets in the hodge podge of current interiors. Northern didn't even turn the former First Class into standard, they just recovered the existing seats and debadged it.

 

[physics34]

171201 which is due to go to EMR from Southern in september i believe hasnt moved from a siding in Selhurst depot for a couple of weeks. I wonder if its carried its last Southern passenger?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

EMR 170s have three different types of seating though.

170273, 171s and the other to-be-EMR-operated 170/2s have the traditional Chapman backed 170 seats.

The ex WM 170/5s have the strange seatbacks with the large table, as per most of XC’s fleet.

And the ex SR 170/4s have a very old version of the Chapman backed seats with a random thing in the headrest.

I hope there will be consistency, even if that’s something this hopeless TOC seems to be the most dreadful at.

 

[Neptune]

EMR 170s have three different types of seating though.

170273, 171s and the other to-be-EMR-operated 170/2s have the traditional Chapman backed 170 seats.

The ex WM 170/5s have the strange seatbacks with the large table, as per most of XC’s fleet.

And the ex SR 170/4s have a very old version of the Chapman backed seats with a random thing in the headrest.

I hope there will be consistency, even if that’s something this hopeless TOC seems to be the most dreadful at.

The 170/2 and 170/4’s have identical seats. The leather headrest ‘patch’ on the ex SR units is just aesthetics. They can be replaced with new seat covers as per the current Scotrail sets when they were refurbed.

The 170/5’s have a different seat frame but the seat cushion is very similar from memory.

 

[Starmill]

I hope there will be consistency, even if that’s something this hopeless TOC seems to be the most dreadful at.

I would be very, very surprised if they're changed for consistency. Have you seen what interiors Northern 156s and 150s have received in the past five years? They will at least finish up more consistent than that.

 

[fgwrich]

The 170/2 and 170/4’s have identical seats. The leather headrest ‘patch’ on the ex SR units is just aesthetics. They can be replaced with new seat covers as per the current Scotrail sets when they were refurbed.

The 170/5’s have a different seat frame but the seat cushion is very similar from memory.

The 170/5s are the Lazzerini seats, with a similar headrest to the Chapmans but made of metal than plastic and with thicker armrests.

 

[DDB]

Is there anything on service levels and or restoration of missing service levels?

 

[johnnychips]

Northern didn't even turn the former First Class into standard, they just recovered the existing seats and debadged it.

Sat on one now, with a/c at full blast and I feel like a queen. EMR could do a lot worse.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would be very, very surprised if they're changed for consistency. Have you seen what interiors Northern 156s and 150s have received in the past five years? They will at least finish up more consistent than that.

They haven’t been massively hyped up by EMR as a flashy new fleet.

 

[43102EMR]

They haven’t been massively hyped up by EMR as a flashy new fleet.

I beg to differ - they certainly have been overselling them and the 360s, which in their current state aren’t much better than what they replaced.

 

[LowLevel]

They haven’t been massively hyped up by EMR as a flashy new fleet.

They're superb trains though, particularly compared to the 15x, the interior is brilliant. They don't feel remotely dated and the family was still being built until fairly recently. Even in their current battered presentation they attract endless positive comments from passengers about "new trains".

Why waste money fixing what isn't broken when cash is an issue.

The 360s are far more of an issue.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They don't feel remotely dated

Regarding the ex ScotRail ones, I beg to differ.

 

[LowLevel]

Regarding the ex ScotRail ones, I beg to differ.

They feel very tired, I agree. Repair the seat cushions, do all the upholstery and so on and they'll be like new.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with them that wouldn't be fixed with a decent overhaul.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They feel very tired, I agree. Repair the seat cushions, do all the upholstery and so on and they'll be like new.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with them that wouldn't be fixed with a decent overhaul.

The renders EMR have produced actually do look almost like new, but I reckon the slimline FISA seats make a big part of that.

 

[IceBlue]

I beg to differ - they certainly have been overselling them and the 360s, which in their current state aren’t much better than what they replaced.

Agreed- poor legroom, WiFi that doesn't work in my experience, units in pretty shabby condition (definitely in the case of the /5s that usually show up on the North Staffs), and not even the chance of USB power compared to the 158s. Granted, an improvement over the 153s and 156s, but I'd still rather see a 158 show up personally. I appreciate there are more indirect benefits (such as reliability, dwell time, accessibility etc), but these are the same units we had in the Central Trains days, being returned to us after 15 years of use elsewhere.

Sure, the 360s might be even worse (I haven't been on one) but that shouldn't mean we don't get the full refurb that's been promised. The East Mids has one of the worst deals in terms of regional rolling stock. TFW are getting brand new 197s and FLIRTs, GA have FLIRTs, West Mids are getting 196s/730s. EMR get hand me downs that those are replacing, in all but GAs case pretty poor condition.

 

[Starmill]

They haven’t been massively hyped up by EMR as a flashy new fleet.

Such is the danger of suggesting that a train that is new which isn't!

 

[ChrisC]

Such is the danger of suggesting that a train that is new which isn't!

The posters that have been displayed on many stations on EMR local lines say the following:

‘Modern trains, better journeys. We’re rolling out new trains on your route’.

Yes, newer and more modern trains than the 156s that have been running on the routes for the last 15 years, but not new trains, or even new to the routes. They are trains returning to the routes that were used back in Central Trains days. However, I totally agree with @LowLevel that once refurbished they will be a fantastic improvement.