A Lime Street to Manchester CLC Metro

[Purple Orange]

My question is: can a 4 tph all stop service run from Manchester to Liverpool plus a semi-fast Liverpool-Sheffield work if the line was fully electrified?

• 4 tph all stop Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Piccadilly - onwards
• 1 tph Liverpool Lime Street, Liverpool South Parkway, Widnes, Warrington, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly… onwards to Sheffield

With the proposal for Warrington to Manchester to be converted to Metrolink tram-train operation, and therefore Warrington to Liverpool could go to Merseyrail, it implies that there would be at least 5 tph (all stop) Warrington-Manchester, 4 tph (all stop) Warrington-Liverpool plus the direct semi-fast Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool service.

The second semi-fast from Sheffield to Liverpool should be scaled back to terminating at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[MattRat]

The biggest question to any operation involving main line Manchester trains, is if there is capacity for the trains, with the answer being probably not.

 

[Purple Orange]

The biggest question to any operation involving main line Manchester trains, is if there is capacity for the trains, with the answer being probably not.

So what is it that means that 5 tram-trains each hour are feasible?

 

[MattRat]

So what is it that means that 5 tram-trains each hour are feasible?

Well the Metrolink to Merseyrail link is sound. But anything involving the main line into and out of Manchester will come up against capacity constraints.

 

[javelin]

So what is it that means that 5 tram-trains each hour are feasible?

The primary constraint on capacity is track space and terminating platforms in central Manchester. Tram-trains solve that by leaving the mainline.

 

[Purple Orange]

So it all comes back to the need for more west facing platforms in Manchester.

 

[javelin]

Easier said than done. A better solution may be a Mancunian Crossrail.

 

[mmh]

Perhaps better to spend the money on incentives for businesses to employ people in Liverpool, Warrington etc to counter the increasing centralisation of the North West's office based economy in central Manchester, which feels increasingly unhealthy.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’d say that’s more of an issue for Liverpool to deal with than Manchester.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Not sure how much you could fit on the line post electrification, we really ought to be looking at a new line adjacent to the M62 anyway.

If done right you could have a chord from the West of Warrington just before Widnes and one in the East from Birchwood and move all the fasts and semi-fasts onto it!

That way you would have no problem running a metro service to Irlam from Manchester (subject to city centre capacity) or one from Widnes to Lime St by Mersey Rail.

 

[Purple Orange]

Not sure how much you could fit on the line post electrification, we really ought to be looking at a new line adjacent to the M62 anyway.

If done right you could have a chord from the West of Warrington just before Widnes and one in the East from Birchwood and move all the fasts and semi-fasts onto it!

That way you would have no problem running a metro service to Irlam from Manchester (subject to city centre capacity) or one from Widnes to Lime St by Mersey Rail.

View attachment 115829

A new line is essentially what NPR would be doing, if done that is. Do there happen to be any old alignments that sit near part of the routes you highlight?

 

[Halifaxlad]

A new line is essentially what NPR would be doing, if done that is. Do there happen to be any old alignments that sit near part of the routes you highlight?

Its only a new line to Warrington Bank Quay then an upgraded freight line.

I don't see it being able to remove all fast services from both Warrington Central and Newton-le-willows which are both direct to Manchester!

Its essentially one new line for three new metro lines.

 

[Purple Orange]

Its only a new line to Warrington Bank Quay then an upgraded freight line.

I don't see it being able to remove all fast services from both Warrington Central and Newton-le-willows which are both direct to Manchester!

It’s going to be taking 4 fast tph and then there will be 2 semi-fast tph on the classic lines from Sheffield, which could go via the Chat Moss. There would be no need for Warrington Central to have any fast services to Manchester.

 

[Halifaxlad]

It’s going to be taking 4 fast tph and then there will be 2 semi-fast tph on the classic lines from Sheffield, which could go via the Chat Moss. There would be no need for Warrington Central to have any fast services to Manchester.

But could a metro service operate on the same line with two semi fast services ?

I'm also sceptical as to whenever it is possible to fit non stop services on a freight line whilst being comparable to what is currently possibly on existing routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But could a metro service operate on the same line with two semi fast services ?

If there's no more than about 10 minutes' difference between the running times of each you could slot them between a 4tph metro style service, yes.

 

[telstarbox]

Perhaps better to spend the money on incentives for businesses to employ people in Liverpool, Warrington etc to counter the increasing centralisation of the North West's office based economy in central Manchester, which feels increasingly unhealthy.

Why is that unhealthy? Having a critical mass of skilled workers in Manchester will be good for the whole of the North West.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is that unhealthy? Having a critical mass of skilled workers in Manchester will be good for the whole of the North West.

This is very true, and if people are mostly WFH then they can go to Manchester one or two days a week, and that promotes better rail services around the North.

I often think the North* would do a lot better were it to work as one than all the in-fighting.

* In particular the North West, and really in particular Liverpool, which would do much better in partnership with Manchester than against it.

 

[telstarbox]

Exactly. The successful subeconomies in the South East such as Oxford, Cambridge, Reading and Brighton thrive because they are well-connected to central London not in spite of that connection.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought the daft idea about treating the entire M62 corridor as one long, thin conurbation had died with Will Alsop... alas Gideon Osborne took it and ran with it, he's long-gone from politics but still this idiocy continues.
Liverpool is Liverpool, Manchester is Manchester. They can complement each other to an extent, but any attempt to merge the two is folly of the highest order.

 

[Purple Orange]

But could a metro service operate on the same line with two semi fast services ?

I'm also sceptical as to whenever it is possible to fit non stop services on a freight line whilst being comparable to what is currently possibly on existing routes.

What semi-fast service would be needed? The CLC would be stoppers plus 1 freight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the daft idea about treating the entire M62 corridor as one long, thin conurbation had died with Will Alsop... alas Gideon Osborne took it and ran with it, he's long-gone from politics but still this idiocy continues.
Liverpool is Liverpool, Manchester is Manchester. They can complement each other to an extent, but any attempt to merge the two is folly of the highest order.

To some extent the triangle of Liverpool, Manchester and Preston and everything in it acts as one. It would do much better if if actually did. Keep cultural identities, but economically they are better together.

 

[Gathursty]

When the fringes of Merseyside and Greater Manchester border each other (and South Ribble for Preston too) it is ridiculous to not work together as a whole to improve through services a avoid situations like Greenfield - Marsden and Kirkby and Ormskirk.

 

[Gareth]

Exactly. The successful subeconomies in the South East such as Oxford, Cambridge, Reading and Brighton thrive because they are well-connected to central London not in spite of that connection.

Apart from the somewhat obvious point that the North West isn't the South East and Manchester is certainly not London.

 

[apk55]

To some extent the triangle of Liverpool, Manchester and Preston and everything in it acts as one. It would do much better if if actually did. Keep cultural identities, but economically they are better together.

I agree. I live close to the edge of Greater Manchester and have come across many people who cross the boundary to work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from the somewhat obvious point that the North West isn't the South East and Manchester is certainly not London.

The North West is very much like the German Ruhrgebiet which seems to manage to work together well (such as the integrated S-Bahn setup) without loss of identity of each town/city. But that won't happen properly until Liverpool stops fretting about whether it's better than Manchester or not.

 

[Gareth]

Actually, I think you and several others on here should just stop fretting about Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually, I think you and several others on here should just stop fretting about Liverpool.

As my place of birth and somewhere I may return to at some point, I want it to do well; it won't do as well on its own.

 

[Gareth]

But it isn't on its own. Like all of England, it's effectively micromanaged from London.

 

[MattRat]

But it isn't on its own. Like all of England, it's effectively micromanaged from London.

Which is why the north feels separated, because everything is better connected to London in the south than their own 'next door neighbor'. This brings us nicely back around to the main thread, which seems to be attempting to bridge the gap, so to speak.

However, if viewing it this way, then more is needed, particularly capacity upgrades, but also include places like Leeds in these new services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When the fringes of Merseyside and Greater Manchester border each other (and South Ribble for Preston too) it is ridiculous to not work together as a whole to improve through services a avoid situations like Greenfield - Marsden and Kirkby and Ormskirk.

I suspect the common denominator in "Awkward PTE boundaries" is GMPTE/TfGM. Case in point, both West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire boundaries overlap, meaning the boundary station is in both PTE areas (Darton, Denby Dale, Moorthorpe, South Elmsall). For some reason there was never a reciprocal arrangement between the two PTEs with Marsden and Greenfield- though there is a greater distance between the two than with the South Yorkshire examples.