Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Do you have a source for that? But for real, I never understood the purpose of TSS or Ansa, other than maybe as a tax thing or to try and act like it was a totally 100% separate entity, as afaik, Cheshire West never did anything like that.
So you think leisure journeys people make at weekends match their weekday journeys? There are some scholars based in Chester who go out of Chester on the 82 to get to school/college.
But to get to Chester in the first place, you have to get a Stagecoach ticket on the 9 or Arriva ticket on the 84. For a return journey, you will be sold the local dayrider which is valid on the 15A.
Those who already have an 82 weekly were not bothered about going to Saughall on a Sunday. I know, I live here!
I understand white labelling thank you. The Warrington one is a good starting point because:
1. It's being managed by a company owned by a local council.
2. It's not a nationwide app for a big operator.
3. Many people already have it on their phones. So they can keep the existing download and sign in details and update as required.
Point 1 and 2. And? Why can't we have the Leicester approach where it's a paper ticket and operators CAN IF THEY WISH, have it on their app?
Point 3, I'd hardly say 'many people', it's got 10k downloads. Quite small really. But as I say, paper ticket, if the operator puts it on the app, great. That's their choice though.
I wasn't aware of that. I was aware that dropped the smartcard scheme that they led for all of Cheshire. However, you've just pointed out they haven't encouraged people to download it, so it doesn't have the 3rd advantage I mentioned above.
No. You can't argue about Cheshire councils not being forward thinking and then argue apps aren't required. Apps shouldn't be the only way of buying tickets but it's 2022 not 2002. Some passengers want day and weekly tickets stored on their phones so replacing single operator tickets on a smart phone with multi-operator paper tickets is taking two steps forward and one step backwards.
Apps are not well liked by many bus travellers. Why do you think operators have to bribe passengers with cheaper app fares or simply not selling paper tickets for certain tickets. If you put it down to choice, most people still don't buy bus tickets on apps and I think that is unlikely to change. They can add some convenience to some passengers but generally, it's in the low numbers.
As for replacing 'single operator tickets', I've never said that, stop making things up.
The majority of passengers seem to buy short distance singles but you wanted to compare day ticket prices. Go North West offer a slow way of getting to Manchester from Warrington. They need to ensure they undercut the faster train and that the saving is significant enough to attract passengers.
Ok, what fare comparison can I give you that would satisfy you? The point was simply that you can get further for your money compared to Warringtons Own Buses fares. Cadished, Irlam, Leigh,
Oh, I know that happened but Fairbrothers did keep serving Penketh school and since that incident, Fairbrothers had 3 buses (maybe 4) on Penketh High daily.
As for the fire, granted that was the icing on the cake but you conveniently ignore the fierce competition prior the fire.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Do you have a sauce for that? But for real, I never understood the purpose of TSS or Ansa, other than maybe as a tax thing or to try and act like it was a totally 100% separate entity, as afaik, Cheshire West never did anything like that.
If it's separate from the council, they can pass the blame onto someone else when it goes wrong. Does it possibly save on staffing costs too since it's 'not the council' so staff aren't entitled to an overly generous pension pot and any benefits which comes from being a council staff member? Depending on how it is looked at, it can probably also be used to hide things since private companies aren't subject to Freedom of Information.
Cheshire west doesn't have a separate branch for public transport but they do for pretty much everything else.
If it's separate from the council, they can pass the blame onto someone else when it goes wrong. Does it possibly save on staffing costs too since it's 'not the council' so staff aren't entitled to an overly generous pension pot and any benefits which comes from being a council staff member?
Do you have a sauce for that? But for real, I never understood the purpose of TSS or Ansa, other than maybe as a tax thing or to try and act like it was a totally 100% separate entity, as afaik, Cheshire West never did anything like that.
But on the website it is stated “on 1 April 2022, TSS was rebranded as Ansa Transport and the web address has now changed to www.ansa.co.uk) I didn’t even know this! The only time I’ve heard or seen something about Ansa is those posters they currently have on some bus stop displays about the Bus Passes going back to how they were, which are stuck down with sellotape, meaning they’ll leave residue for months.
Ansa is another wholly owned subsidiary of Cheshire East Council, it's been responsible for household waste collection services for a while now, for example. So perhaps this is just a "tidying up" exercise?
The only time I’ve heard or seen something about Ansa is those posters they currently have on some bus stop displays about the Bus Passes going back to how they were
But to get to Chester in the first place, you have to get a Stagecoach ticket on the 9 or Arriva ticket on the 84. For a return journey, you will be sold the local dayrider which is valid on the 15A.
Have you asked the passengers or is that a comment like Mr Almond at D&G once saying there's no need for connections between the 288 and the trains at Altrincham as not many people make journeys that involve more than one mode of transport?
I've never said it can't be available as a paper ticket. I've been disagreeing with you about it only being available on a paper ticket and about how national operator apps could be used.
Point 3, I'd hardly say 'many people', it's got 10k downloads. Quite small really. But as I say, paper ticket, if the operator puts it on the app, great. That's their choice though.
I thought Cheshire East promoting refunds for unused credit on cards was down to the card being withdrawn but it may have just related to D&G withdrawing from it.
Because if most people used the app it would be more cost effective for the operator. Why do you think many cities now have bus routes where you are not allowed to pay the driver on board?
If you put it down to choice, most people still don't buy bus tickets on apps and I think that is unlikely to change. They can add some convenience to some passengers but generally, it's in the low numbers.
So you think passengers will still buy two different operator tickets even after a multi-operator ticket is available? If not trying reading things in context instead of jumping to bizarre conclusions.
If you want to discuss the best way of implementing multi-operator day tickets in shire counties then maybe you should start a new thread? I don't think a lot of arguments are Cheshire specific.
Oh, I know that happened but Fairbrothers did keep serving Penketh school and since that incident, Fairbrothers had 3 buses (maybe 4) on Penketh High daily.
So you accept Fairbrothers' revenue was negatively impacted by competition from Springfield/Howards and the fire had a negative impact on their operations? The way you were talking before is like Warrington's Own Buses tried to force Fairbrothers off the road and it was all their fault that Fairbrothers went bust.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Do you have a source for that? But for real, I never understood the purpose of TSS or Ansa, other than maybe as a tax thing or to try and act like it was a totally 100% separate entity, as afaik, Cheshire West never did anything like that.
Local councils aren't allowed to operate services for other local councils. A company owned by a local council is though. An example in this thread is Warrington's Own Buses having a contract for the CAT9/9A route with Cheshire West council.
Why the previous Conservative administration decided to outsource the tendering process for bus services to Transport Service Solutions and set up TSS and ANSA as two separate companies is a mystery. TSS just had a few minibuses and drivers, so didn't really need to be separate. The current administration wanted to eliminate some of the inefficiencies and merging ANSA and TSS was one way they are doing that.
On a Sunday you would. Only if you lived around Chester Bus Interchange itself would it be possible as you're explaining it. It doesn't matter how you try to crunch the numbers, people will already have Stagecoach or Arriva tickets and if not, the chance of them having a D&G weekly on hand is minimal. In the 0.000000000000000001%. Waste of time even worrying about!
Have you asked the passengers or is that a comment like Mr Almond at D&G once saying there's no need for connections between the 288 and the trains at Altrincham as not many people make journeys that involve more than one mode of transport?
I live in the area, that is how I know. No comment from D&G on the subject. Your comments on the 15A make zero sense and you may as well leave it there on that one. I'm a local, I've lived here all my life and the local public transport is something I have spent stupid amounts of time on including research and meeting local operators etc etc. People were never ever going to use a D&G weekly ticket on the 15A. Anyone wi
I've never said it can't be available as a paper ticket. I've been disagreeing with you about it only being available on a paper ticket and about how national operator apps could be used.
I've never said it can't be on an app, just as long as a paper ticket is also available. If it is on an app, it should be on existing operators apps if they choose to do so.
That figure isn't available. Warringtons Own Buses carried nearly 5.3 million passengers in 2019/20. Of which, roughly 1.7 million were concessionary pass holders. That brings us down to 3.6 million. There isn't any data that I know of which shows how many of these have existing touch and go passes issued by the council/school/university. With that in mind, even using high and low estimates for the numbers of students/kids with paid for touch & go passes, you have a very high number of fare paying journeys. We also don't know how many journeys someone is making each year. As such, this question can't be answered. It's fair to say though that the number of app users is low.
I thought Cheshire East promoting refunds for unused credit on cards was down to the card being withdrawn but it may have just related to D&G withdrawing from it.
Possibly. Can't say. The Yellow card is still going though. Only Arriva, M&H, Stagecoach and Warringtons Own Buses accept the card though. (With Arriva interestingly still offering a 10% discount on single fares)
Again have you asked them or are you presuming bus passengers all share your opinion?
Because if most people used the app it would be more cost effective for the operator. Why do you think many cities now have bus routes where you are not allowed to pay the driver on board?
So you think passengers will still buy two different operator tickets even after a multi-operator ticket is available? If not trying reading things in context instead of jumping to bizarre conclusions.
If you want to discuss the best way of implementing multi-operator day tickets in shire counties then maybe you should start a new thread? I don't think a lot of arguments are Cheshire specific.
Yes, because that is exactly what happens everywhere else. I don't know why you think Cheshire would be a special case in that. Merseyside, Leicester, West Midlands, people still buy operator own tickets. I'm not jumping to a bizarre conclusion, I am stating facts.
So you accept Fairbrothers' revenue was negatively impacted by competition from Springfield/Howards and the fire had a negative impact on their operations? The way you were talking before is like Warrington's Own Buses tried to force Fairbrothers off the road and it was all their fault that Fairbrothers went bust.
Warrington did try to force Fairbrothers off the road with an array of tactics. They were very 'on the ground' though, you had to see the tactics to believe them. This was at a time before bus tracking was available so they got away with it. It wasn't all their fault, the fire was the icing on the cake but had the fire not happened, Warrington were trying to force Fairbrothers off the road (albeit unsuccessfully). It was only for the fire that Fairbrothers stopped. They'd have carried on for years otherwise.
That figure isn't available. Warringtons Own Buses carried nearly 5.3 million passengers in 2019/20. Of which, roughly 1.7 million were concessionary pass holders. That brings us down to 3.6 million. There isn't any data that I know of which shows how many of these have existing touch and go passes issued by the council/school/university. With that in mind, even using high and low estimates for the numbers of students/kids with paid for touch & go passes, you have a very high number of fare paying journeys. We also don't know how many journeys someone is making each year. As such, this question can't be answered. It's fair to say though that the number of app users is low.
I presume you mean passengers made 5.3 million journeys. 5.3 million passengers would mean almost everyone in the North West of England uses Warrington's Own Buses, when most wouldn't even go near Warrington, using any form of transport.
One person can easily make 450 journeys annually just getting to and from work. So 10,000 people commuting every day could result in 4.5m journeys per annum. Of course someone might download and never use it, while a commuter might make additional leisure journeys in the evening. The only thing we can conclude from the figures you've quoted is the number of times a passenger scans their app on boarding was somewhere between 0 times and a few million times! I can confirm it's more than 0 as I used it myself during that period.
Local councils aren't allowed to operate services for other local councils. A company owned by a local council is though. An example in this thread is Warrington's Own Buses having a contract for the CAT9/9A route with Cheshire West council.
Why the previous Conservative administration decided to outsource the tendering process for bus services to Transport Service Solutions and set up TSS and ANSA as two separate companies is a mystery. TSS just had a few minibuses and drivers, so didn't really need to be separate. The current administration wanted to eliminate some of the inefficiencies and merging ANSA and TSS was one way they are doing that.
On the first point I think they can. Section 101 (b) of the 1972 Local Government Act states that "a local authority may arrange for the discharge of any of their functions ... by any other local authority" which would seem to cover it (I'm also aware of cases where "back office" functions such as payroll were operated by one council for one or more other councils - not always happily!).
On the second point it was one of Michael Jones's ideas and I did hear it explained but cannot recall the justification.
Won’t be surprised if D&G take it on if does go up for tender.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Also, I was speaking to an Arriva Winsford driver today and he was saying that it’s his last day at Winsford and is moving back up to Macclesfield (Where he was before Lockdown) to do one of the late 38’s. As 3161 is moving up to Macclesfield outstation to operate one out of the three 38’s.
Arriva couldn’t justify running the 14. They are cutting the 31/37 W’s partly so that they won’t be short of drivers, and even then, they will still be a few short. Macclesfield outstation is also short of drivers.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Also, Does anyone know what on earth is going on with the 19? I thought High Peak had it back? When I was at Macclesfield Bus Station on Friday, I saw D&G Bus 50 running the 19. I’ve also noticed that on the High Peak website, they haven’t added the new 90 minute frequency timetable. Are D&G keeping it? Is it facing the axe? Are High Peak handing it to their sister company? I have no idea
D&G will be covering our 19 service in Macclesfield due to a driver shortage. Due to this, the 1320 trip from Prestbury to Macclesfield will not be operated on weekdays for the foreseeable future.
A bus narrowly missed children on bikes as it careered down a Crewe street and smashed into a row of parked cars. CCTV footage shows the service bus hit the side of a van, nearly hit three children on bikes, then plough into the back of a red saloon car.
The saloon is propelled into a car parked in front, which is shunted into a lamppost, and both vehicles spin into the middle of the road. The bus comes to a standstill on the pavement.
According to the time stamp on CCTV seen by CheshireLive, the crash happened just before 4.50pm yesterday, June 18. Crewe Police posted on Facebook shortly afterwards: "Multiple vehicle RTC on ALTON STREET CREWE. Avoid this route as it is closed at both ends."
I think a RTC is an understatement. It rammed in to multiple cars on both sides of the road, nearly hit 3 boys on their bikes and then shunted a large car quite a distance down the road before crashing in to someone's hedge. The damage that caused to other vehicles and property is going to be substantially higher than the value of D&G's 14 year Solo. The police apparently said the driver wasn't to blame, which presumably means D&G's servicing record is to blame. I presume we'll be hearing about D&G being summoned to a hearing with the Traffic Commissioner soon.
I think a RTC is an understatement. It rammed in to multiple cars on both sides of the road, nearly hit 3 boys on their bikes and then shunted a large car quite a distance down the road before crashing in to someone's hedge. The damage that caused to other vehicles and property is going to be substantially higher than the value of D&G's 14 year Solo. The police apparently said the driver wasn't to blame, which presumably means D&G's servicing record is to blame. I presume we'll be hearing about D&G being summoned to a hearing with the Traffic Commissioner soon.
I think a RTC is an understatement. It rammed in to multiple cars on both sides of the road, nearly hit 3 boys on their bikes and then shunted a large car quite a distance down the road before crashing in to someone's hedge. The damage that caused to other vehicles and property is going to be substantially higher than the value of D&G's 14 year Solo. The police apparently said the driver wasn't to blame, which presumably means D&G's servicing record is to blame. I presume we'll be hearing about D&G being summoned to a hearing with the Traffic Commissioner soon.
The police seem to have ruled out the driver being at fault, there were no other moving vehicles at the time (the boys on bikes were stationary at the side of the road), the road hasn't closed for emergency repairs and the vehicle being used is over 6 years old. So the only logical conclusion is there will need to be an investigation as to whether the vehicle was properly maintained.
In my opinion, D&G have developed a reputation for putting vehicles with faults in to service and compared to other operators, they have a high number of vehicles failing while in service. To me there seems to be a lot of evidence to suggest the operator is to blame but the Traffic Commissioner will decide what if any action to take.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Oh yes, good point. I’m surprised more vehicles haven’t been inspected, as through the years I’ve had some interesting experiences with D&G regarding the vehicle.
The police seem to have ruled out the driver being at fault, there were no other moving vehicles at the time (the boys on bikes were stationary at the side of the road), the road hasn't closed for emergency repairs and the vehicle being used is over 6 years old. So the only logical conclusion is there will need to be an investigation as to whether the vehicle was properly maintained.
In my opinion, D&G have developed a reputation for putting vehicles with faults in to service and compared to other operators, they have a high number of vehicles failing while in service. To me there seems to be a lot of evidence to suggest the operator is to blame but the Traffic Commissioner will decide what if any action to take.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Will D&G have the vehicle? The police may have taken it away for their own inspections.
The article says ‘no offences disclosed’. That doesn’t mean there weren’t any! It means the police are probably still investigating. Alternatively the driver could have suffered a medical incident. Or yes - it is ‘possible’ there may have been a vehicle fault. DVSA and the police will investigate if there is anything unclear. But none of us on here have the evidence to jump to conclusions and make potentially libellous statements with no foundation about the company, the driver, or the vehicle.
RailUK was launched on 6th June 2005 - so we've hit 20 years being the UK's most popular railway community! Read more and celebrate this milestone with us in this thread!
But for real, I never understood the purpose of TSS or Ansa, other than maybe as a tax thing or to try and act like it was a totally 100% separate entity, as afaik, Cheshire West never did anything like that.
www.cheshire-live.co.uk
