Rail strikes discussion

[alistairlees]

This article by Roger Ford - published in Modern Railways a month before Covid struck - gives a good idea of the deteriorating finances before Covid: https://www.modernrailways.com/article/support-railway-hits-10-year-high

 

[Gems]

Many TOC's struggle with Sunday train crew cover at the best of times - with Shapps making silly comments like this fanning the flames it won't encourage volunteers !! I suspect many regular volunteers will take that Sunday off if not already rostered in to have weekend off (and before the Sunday should be compulsory working chorus starts my TOC rarely cancels Sunday services, the mix of those wanting to work zero Sundays and those that want to do many extra ones is very good)

I have today cancelled my Sunday June 26th availability. I'm not even in the RMT anymore and have no intention of striking. But Shapps hasn't so much angered me, but he has made me feel sort of, I don't know how to put it. Awkward I guess.

 

[Carlisle]

I doubt if it's also escaped the government's attention that while the RMT does have a lot of disputes success it isn't universal. For example, it comprehensively lost the LU ticket office closures and Southern guards disputes, only got a partial success on SWR and is busy going absolutely nowhere with the LU Night Tube dispute.

Does that prove anything other than DFT & the other devolved bodies are incompetent, inconsistent & fair game for a fight in the RMTs view? given they specified DCO on FGW, WMR, Northern & optional on TPE. Progress on all these to date 0%

 

[jayah]

Im sure that if an adequate restructuring package is offered most people would take it up.

It won’t be forced on staff whether anybody likes it or not.

I wouldn't expect lashings of money. They might do deals on productivity for pay but the unions see that as zero sum and turned them down when there was far more money around than today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

Does that prove anything other than DFT are incompetent, inconsistent & fair game for a fight in the RMTs view, given they specified & agreed DCO on FGW, WMR,, Northern & optional on TPE, progress on all of these to date 0%

They fought some very long battles on Northern and got very little to show for it. The fighting is more important than the winning to them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

I have today cancelled my Sunday June 26th availability. I'm not even in the RMT anymore and have no intention of striking. But Shapps hasn't so much angered me, but he has made me feel sort of, I don't know how to put it. Awkward I guess.

Everybody should do the same. No Sunday services for a few weeks will force this issue to be resolved, once and for all.

Same with these silly 1 in 7 strikes. Do it properly and walk out until your demands are met. It would be over in a month.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

that subsidy figure was Pre-Covid…



I should have credited the figures, which are from a piece Roger Ford did in the May Modern Railways. There’s an excellent analysis of the cost drivers there. (Apologies Cap’n if you are reading).



For clarity these are Pre Covid figures.

There was then a further, significant, increase in subsidy in the financial year 2020/21, to £17bn; the increase being mostly due to the loss of nearly £9bn in revenue, but also partly because costs increased compared to the previous year (despite running a reduced timetable).

The numbers aren’t out for 2021/22, but you can expect subsidy to be in the region of £13-14bn.

For the current year, if trends continue, the subsidy will be about £10-12bn, and stay there pending either further cost reductions on top of what has already been delivered / promised, or additional revenue ahead of forecasts. I will stress, again, that the revenue forecasts have been remarkably accurate so far.

21/22 was originally budgeted at 7.8B for NR (and that is only OMR) and 3.8B for operator support the figures were set prior to unexpected Omicron impact which added another 1.8B.

22/23 is budgeting similar amount for NR but only 2.8B for operator support (see Central Government Supply Estimates 2022-23 ) which I suspect would have been an under forecast even without RMT strikes. My take is commuter operators are playing at the margins to take out costs with little more than can be done but biggest outlier is NR which continues to consume lions share of the revenue budget (im ignoring enhancement spend).

 

[jayah]

We should be debating the job loses at network rail, maintenance staff seem an easy target.
The management talk about multi tasking and things like that, does that mean the senior managers can cover for the maintainance staff then ?

Everyone goes on about pay but this dispute is far more complicated than people realise, it's a multi facetted dispute.

I am surprised this doesn't seem to have been mentioned Rail Staff won't work when its Sunny apparently when there is a major points failure at Kings Cross, the staff at Euston put their feet up because it is not their territory. It seems the union don't have a monopoly on axes to grind and a good deal of dirty washing may be soon be out on display.

 

[TPO]

I agree; that's certainly one of the biggest concerns for a lot of NR staff. My comment purely served to show that MPs are by no means receiving a huge payrise, indeed I would be amazed if this ends up being resolved at less than 2.7%.

Indeed. The very important issue of maintenance staff cuts is not talked about enough. Nor are certain articles entirely honest- contrary to what is implied, Network Rail DO use a lot of automatic track monitoring technology and pattern recognition, however the technology is still nowhere near as good as the mk1 human eyeball/brain combo for spotting certain things. It's actually rather difficult to get a computer to do something as simple (to a human) as distinguishing between photos of dogs and cats.

Then someone needs to go fix the fault.... wetbeds still need digging out by hand (or a massive track renewal plus major drainage to prevent). Or the burst hydraulic pipes replacing on the clamplocks....

Its very difficult to describe the railway to the general public. I remember speaking to someone in depth about the working of the railways... then afterwards, after all my spew, he asked why trains dont have a steering wheel!

There is alot of ignorance out there

Indeed there is. Part of my work involves teaching newbies about the basics of road (line of sight, stop within distance you can see) vs railway (movement authority from "signals" of whatever type, and the block system), and why this is. The starting point has to be very basic.

Desirable roles receive thousands of applicants, but over 95% don’t pass the assessments for the role even if they’re lucky (In reality it’s not down to luck, it’s down to the quality of the completed application and the candidate demonstrating their transferable skills) enough for their application to be selected.

Thousands of applicants apply to be an astronaut but very few make it to the moon

And of those who are selected, not all make it through training. There's things which you cannot really teach such as the basic willingness to learn, to take responsibility, to want to do things right not bulls**t and lie. Some traits like this don't become obvious until the mentoring stage. I don't think many people outside the industry understand the skills (including the ability to take responsibility) involved in some "lowly" roles- or the potential consequences if a mistake is made. OK so not quite as critical as aviation but still highly critical.

The sad thing is the way that office work is deemed "more important" and the media sets working people against each other. I wonder how long a Daily Fail journo would last digging out a wetbed or shunting and preparing a train with 24 wagons and a couple of locos........ or doing a 12hr shift on a ROC workstation or Control desk when a bad weather event or other incident has happened.

I know. Let's cut BBC, MP and journo pay and see how much we need them!!!!!!!

TPO

 

[Egg Centric]

I have today cancelled my Sunday June 26th availability. I'm not even in the RMT anymore and have no intention of striking. But Shapps hasn't so much angered me, but he has made me feel sort of, I don't know how to put it. Awkward I guess.

As much as I think this strike is a bad idea, Shapps is a complete prick and good on you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==

I thought more about this. If somehow the RMT could make this personal and make it a "Grant Shapps is a prick and must go" action there would be overwhelming public support.

That doesn't directly get anything for members but it probably flexes muscles and gets a more serious response from government.

It won't happen of course. But I give you the idea for free.

 

[muz379]

I have today cancelled my Sunday June 26th availability. I'm not even in the RMT anymore and have no intention of striking. But Shapps hasn't so much angered me, but he has made me feel sort of, I don't know how to put it. Awkward I guess.

Indeed I think a lot of people have been puzzled by these comments regarding overtime . I know what he actually said but it did come across as silly to claim that overtime is only for the benefit of staff and not for the benefit of getting the job done .

It also seems completely ignorant of the reality on the ground which is that some days the running of a train service , maintenance operation , cleaning operation heck even lower level management is heavily reliant on overtime .

 

[Carlisle]

As much as I think this strike is a bad idea, Shapps is a complete prick and good on you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==

I thought more about this. If somehow the RMT could make this personal and make it a "Grant Shapps is a prick and must go" action there would be overwhelming public support.

That doesn't directly get anything for members but it probably flexes muscles and gets a more serious response from government.

It won't happen of course. But I give you the idea for free.

Seen it all before with RMT protests in various locations claiming ‘Grayling is Failing’

 

[cambsy]

I have just looked at National express for Sat 25th June, from Exeter to London and other fares, and they are more than normal, so looks like RMT is playing straight in to the hands of the coach operators, as National Express, look like they are going to clean up, and have some bumper days, which will mean, RMT, shooting them selves and the railways badly in the foot.

This will give more ammunition, for the government to make big cuts to the railways, and less bargaining powers for the railways to fight back, and stop big cuts, as the railways need to show, they can start maximising revenue, as the nation comes out of Covid, and lockdowns, not lose massive amounts of money over weekend, when they are busy with leisure travellers, which in turn will just anger government, and they will just dig in and do bad damage to RMT, maybe bring about their downfall, as they will turn the public against the RMT and rail workers.

I can see railway workers, seeing an increase of abuse etc, from passengers, as a lot will be irate at having their lives, messed up, not being able to make appointments, or other important things in their lives, and I wont have much sympathy for the railway, workers this time, as they have bought it on themselves.

 

[JonathanH]

I have just looked at National express for Sat 35th June, from Exeter to London and other fares, and they are more than normal, so looks like RMT is playing straight in to the hands of the coach operators, as National Express, look like they are going to clean up, and have some bumper days, which will mean, RMT, shooting them selves and the railways badly in the foot.

A coach carries about a tenth of the number of people a 9-car IET can carry. It doesn't take many people to switch to fill the coach. Who knows whether relief coaches can be organised, noting that the coach service from the South West isn't as frequent as the train service either.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have just looked at National express for Sat 35th June, from Exeter to London and other fares, and they are more than normal, so looks like RMT is playing straight in to the hands of the coach operators

What it looks like is that National Express are capitalising on other people misery.

I can see railway workers, seeing an increase of abuse etc, from passengers, as a lot will be irate at having their lives, messed up, not being able to make appointments, or other important things in their lives, and I wont have much sympathy for the railway, workers this time, as they have bought it on themselves.

Nobody should be abused for being at work or expressing their opinions. Anyone who abuses staff should be removed, arrested, and charged. And with luck, banned from travel permanently.

 

[cambsy]

Nobody should be abused for being at work or expressing opinions, but this strike is more than just expressing opinions, and will lead to a lot of misery for the passengers, so while it’s wrong abuse railways workers, I wont have sympathy for them, as they have bought it on themselves, im 100 per cent against the strikes.

 

[ungreat]

35th June????
That's a long old month!

 

[cambsy]

Sorry was typo 35th June, meant 25th, thanks for noticing ungreat, have edited the post, to correct date.

 

[ungreat]

Nobody should be abused for being at work or expressing opinions, but this strike is more than just expressing opinions, and will lead to a lot of misery for the passengers, so while it’s wrong abuse railways workers, I wont have sympathy for them, as they have bought it on themselves, im 100 per cent against the strikes.

Anyone who gives me any grief over it can expect the train stopped until the BTP show up.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Indeed I think a lot of people have been puzzled by these comments regarding overtime . I know what he actually said but it did come across as silly to claim that overtime is only for the benefit of staff and not for the benefit of getting the job done .

It also seems completely ignorant of the reality on the ground which is that some days the running of a train service , maintenance operation , cleaning operation heck even lower level management is heavily reliant on overtime .

Some days = every day.

The reality is that the railway has and always will run on overtime. It’s the equivalent of a zero hours contract and saves the railway companies extra employees and therefore less pension and national insurance contributions. The problem is the scales have tipped far too far on the heavy reliance of overtime compared to before.

 

[JonathanH]

What it looks like is that National Express are capitalising on other people misery.

Or are just running out of capacity and that is recognised by their pricing algorithms.

 

[Furryanimal]

The effects of this strike will be exarcabated in my area by the failure of the bus companies to restore pre-Covid timetables.
i fully expect to have miss the two cricket matches I have booked next week as I don’t expect there to be a train home.
pre-Covid I could have made it to within five miles of home and happily paid a £10 taxi fare.
Now the bus service stops at 8pm so unless I want to pay £40 for a taxi each evening or book hotel rooms which are mysteriously four times the price they are this week I am scuppered.
And with other trips booked months ago-already paid for-I am now wondering if I will be able to make them.
Actively looking for alternative means of travel-but I’m not a great fan of long distance bus travel!
i may have to become that!

 

[cambsy]

A lot of National Express services, are not showing, say 1 seat remaining, so i dont think the higher fares are necessarily down to capacity, but its hard to tell, as it may have put passengers off travelling, at the fares they charging, so without info from National Express, I wouldnt like to say capacity is the only thing driving the higher strike days fares, as it just as likely, their is no competition, on strike days, from trains, so National Express can charge higher fares and fill their boots merrily on the strike days. It may be profiting form peoples misery etc, but its the commercial world, and the RMT have given them on a plate, this golden opportunity.

 

[RT4038]

What it looks like is that National Express are capitalising on other people misery.

After enduring two years of misery (during Covid) themselves, with no government support, unlike the railways funded to the hilt.

 

[Moonshot]

Some days = every day.

The reality is that the railway has and always will run on overtime. It’s the equivalent of a zero hours contract and saves the railway companies extra employees and therefore less pension and national insurance contributions. The problem is the scales have tipped far too far on the heavy reliance of overtime compared to before.

I personally am quite happy to work overtime. It's very lucrative.

 

[wobman]

I have just looked at National express for Sat 25th June, from Exeter to London and other fares, and they are more than normal, so looks like RMT is playing straight in to the hands of the coach operators, as National Express, look like they are going to clean up, and have some bumper days, which will mean, RMT, shooting them selves and the railways badly in the foot.

This will give more ammunition, for the government to make big cuts to the railways, and less bargaining powers for the railways to fight back, and stop big cuts, as the railways need to show, they can start maximising revenue, as the nation comes out of Covid, and lockdowns, not lose massive amounts of money over weekend, when they are busy with leisure travellers, which in turn will just anger government, and they will just dig in and do bad damage to RMT, maybe bring about their downfall, as they will turn the public against the RMT and rail workers.

I can see railway workers, seeing an increase of abuse etc, from passengers, as a lot will be irate at having their lives, messed up, not being able to make appointments, or other important things in their lives, and I wont have much sympathy for the railway, workers this time, as they have bought it on themselves.

What's the alternative to taking action, do people not read what the staff effected are posting about what's happening at network rail ?

I think many people believe everything from the govt & the daily fail,which baffles me.

 

[cambsy]

Well said RT4038, very good point, who can blame National Express for taking this Mana from Heaven, which has been poured down on them by the RMT. The RMT is just giving ammunition to the railway competitors, and the government by the bucket load, which isn’t a sensible thing, to do for one’s future prospects.

 

[Siggy1980s]

Well, so far, it looks like the 'railway' and government are happy for us all to strike..... That's a dangerous and expensive position to be in, from an employee point of view.

 

[175001]

A coach carries about a tenth of the number of people a 9-car IET can carry. It doesn't take many people to switch to fill the coach. Who knows whether relief coaches can be organised, noting that the coach service from the South West isn't as frequent as the train service either.

And of course there is a chronic national shortage of service bus and coach drivers which means anyone hoping there will be additional services will be disappointed

 

[Moonshot]

Well, so far, it looks like the 'railway' and government are happy for us all to strike..... That's a dangerous and expensive position to be in, from an employee point of view.

A position which the employee overwhelmingly voted for.

 

[Ivor]

Anyone who abuses staff should be removed, arrested, and charged. And with luck, banned from travel permanently.

You are absolutely spot on with this comment but my experience & that of colleagues is that even in serious incidents ‘if’ the BTP do turn up & culprits still on the scene they normally get a talking to whilst taking verbal abuse as they wander off often from often sub 16 years of age boys & girls, it’s a total disgrace to which I’ve vented at the BTP & get a ‘political response’ of….“well their age, difficult to prosecute” etc etc

Apologies going a bit off topic & I’ve commented similar on the previous thread my point being abuse from fare paying passengers during the strike will also be vicious from some towards TOC staff & agency staff covering CSA roles (back on topic)

I’ve witnessed REOs getting it in the neck when trains cancelled due to an incident & police summoned.

 

[Siggy1980s]

A position which the employee overwhelmingly voted for.

What choice was there? Just hope and pray that in another 3 years (six in total) that NR take pity on us, and in the meantime don't make mass job cuts and attack our pensions? NR would pay us minimum wage if they could get away with it. Its not as if they want to pay well, or even like their employees.

Lets not be gullible.

And before anyone says, 'well I've not had a pay rise for years', that's not the railways problem, take it up with your respective employer and union....