Rail strikes discussion

[KenA]

The railways are subsidised to the tune of over £600 a year per household, Given most people do not use the railways that's a crazy level of subsidy

Another problem is the railways are a 24/7 business but on many lines working at weekends is voluntary and paid overtime rates. That's a crazy way to run a business and has to change

 

[Gems]

What choice was there? Just hope and pray that in another 3 years (six in total) that NR take pity on us, and in the meantime don't make mass job cuts and attack our pensions? NR would pay us minimum wage if they could get away with it. Its not as if they want to pay well, or even like their employees.

Lets not be gullible.

And before anyone says, 'well I've not had a pay rise for years', that's not the railways problem, take it up with your respective employer and union....

You speak from a NR employee perspective. Others speak from a TOC perspective. In all fairness what these threads have taught us, or me at least, is that both perspectives are very different. So with that in mind, why on earth has the RMT lumped everyone together in dispute when the dispute is not a uniform dispute. You have 13 TOC'S all on different pay rates, how on earth do you negotiate around that other than individually.
A lot of people are going to end up wondering what on earth all this was about. And the biggest question of all is the one question every combatant needs to ask. "What is the exit strategy"?

 

[skyhigh]

Another problem is the railways are a 24/7 business but on many lines working at weekends is voluntary and paid overtime rates. That's a crazy way to run a business and has to change

Firstly I don't know any roles where Saturday working is voluntary.... secondly, unions are in favour of bringing Sunday into the working week. It's TOCs and DfT who don't want to because it requires an increased headcount (which will cost more than the overtime bill).

 

[CFRAIL]

I can see railway workers, seeing an increase of abuse etc, from passengers, as a lot will be irate at having their lives, messed up, not being able to make appointments, or other important things in their lives, and I wont have much sympathy for the railway, workers this time, as they have bought it on themselves.

The people I've spoken to have all largely been supportive, whilst they're frustrated that it'll directly impact them, they're understanding of the reasons why.

Well, so far, it looks like the 'railway' and government are happy for us all to strike..... That's a dangerous and expensive position to be in, from an employee point of view.

I think the sad thing is there are people that voted against strike action but voted for action short of and will now be expected to stand in solidarity with their colleagues.

 

[Siggy1980s]

What is the exit strategy"?

Me PERSONALLY? 5% and absolutely no job cuts. If it's good enough for Scotrail.....

 

[dk1]

The railways are subsidised to the tune of over £600 a year per household, Given most people do not use the railways that's a crazy level of subsidy

Another problem is the railways are a 24/7 business but on many lines working at weekends is voluntary and paid overtime rates. That's a crazy way to run a business and has to change

Wasn’t that just because of Covid though?

 

[Vespa]

A lot of National Express services, are not showing, say 1 seat remaining, so i dont think the higher fares are necessarily down to capacity, but its hard to tell, as it may have put passengers off travelling, at the fares they charging, so without info from National Express, I wouldnt like to say capacity is the only thing driving the higher strike days fares, as it just as likely, their is no competition, on strike days, from trains, so National Express can charge higher fares and fill their boots merrily on the strike days. It may be profiting form peoples misery etc, but its the commercial world, and the RMT have given them on a plate, this golden opportunity.

Megabus do provide competing services, I've booked with them for June 25th reserved seat to hedge my bets, just got an email saying they're laying on extra coaches to cope with the expected demand, it will be the first time I travelled with them.

Of course they're to going to seize the opportunity to make more money from the strikes, it's a business opportunity for them and other smaller coach companies.

If the strikes continues you can expect to lose some customers over to coach travel and others to cars permanently especially if priced competitively, it's been some years since I've travelled on National Express ( no Megabus then) when I do, it's on an Liverpool-London overnight coach as it's cheaper as I was on a lower wage then and I can make most of the long weekend in London, BR has just stopped Liverpool overnight sleeper services to London at the time, now if National Express and Megabus can provide overnight sleeper services it would interesting to see the take up rate if the benefits is promoted attractively.

 

[Gems]

Me PERSONALLY? 5% and absolutely no job cuts.

Sounds very reasonable. But I wasn't allowed as train crew to even put myself forward for voluntary redundancy. Unless you open it up to everyone how can you be sure non compulsory job losses would be needed?

 

[cambsy]

Im applying for a Van driving job, which 10.50 an hour, and Ive not seen the whole Van driving, industry, going out on strike, over pay, so I do think the railway workers, are being greedy, especially as quite a few are on good money, and should be thankful, they have good pay and conditions. It’s tough times for everyone, and this not time to strike, and destroy your industry, and though the government wont get rid of the railways, they sure can make big cuts, egged on by the strikes.

The government, sees the railways as needing to generate good revenue, after the big bailout during covid, so striking, and robbing the railways of much needed revenue, when it is getting busy, with leisure travellers on Saturdays etc, is jus plain folly, and im tempted, if the government, brings in allowing Agency staff to work on railways, during the strikes, to take an Agency job on the railways, no quelms.

 

[skyhigh]

Im applying for a Van driving job, which 10.50 an hour, and Ive not seen the whole Van driving, industry, going out on strike, over pay, so I do think the railway workers, are being greedy, especially as quite a few are on good money, and should be thankful, they have good pay and conditions.

That effectively boils down to "I haven't got what they have so they shouldn't do anything to keep what they have".

How do you think rail staff ended up with those conditions?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==

im tempted, if the government, brings in allowing Agency staff to work on railways, during the strikes, to take an Agency job on the railways, no quelms.

Why not apply for a permanent role?

 

[Gems]

Im applying for a Van driving job, which 10.50 an hour, and Ive not seen the whole Van driving, industry, going out on strike, over pay, so I do think the railway workers, are being greedy, especially as quite a few are on good money, and should be thankful, they have good pay and conditions. It’s tough times for everyone, and this not time to strike, and destroy your industry, and though the government wont get rid of the railways, they sure can make big cuts, egged on by the strikes.

The government, sees the railways as needing to generate good revenue, after the big bailout during covid, so striking, and robbing the railways of much needed revenue, when it is getting busy, with leisure travellers on Saturdays etc, is jus plain folly, and im tempted, if the government, brings in allowing Agency staff to work on railways, during the strikes, to take an Agency job on the railways, no quelms.

I understand what you are saying. However what you are really advocating here is everyone should be grateful to be able to join the race to the bottom. Do you see higher management, politicians, and lords and ladies, joining in this race to the bottom?
I think it was the late great boxing coach and Mike Tyson mentor.'Cus D Mato' who said "Losers are just winners who quit, even if you lose you are still a winner if you don't quit" Accepting your lot is quiting.

 

[dk1]

Im applying for a Van driving job, which 10.50 an hour, and Ive not seen the whole Van driving, industry, going out on strike, over pay, so I do think the railway workers, are being greedy, especially as quite a few are on good money, and should be thankful, they have good pay and conditions. It’s tough times for everyone, and this not time to strike, and destroy your industry, and though the government wont get rid of the railways, they sure can make big cuts, egged on by the strikes.

The government, sees the railways as needing to generate good revenue, after the big bailout during covid, so striking, and robbing the railways of much needed revenue, when it is getting busy, with leisure travellers on Saturdays etc, is jus plain folly, and im tempted, if the government, brings in allowing Agency staff to work on railways, during the strikes, to take an Agency job on the railways, no quelms.

You don’t sound like you have many aspirations in life.

 

[yorksrob]

The railways are subsidised to the tune of over £600 a year per household, Given most people do not use the railways that's a crazy level of subsidy

Another problem is the railways are a 24/7 business but on many lines working at weekends is voluntary and paid overtime rates. That's a crazy way to run a business and has to change

What period of time does this £600 relate to ?

Certainly 17 billion provided in Roger Ford's figures for the height of the pandemic when people were told not to use public transport, divided by 28 million households comes to around £600, but that's very much an unusual situation.

The current figure based on the 13.5bn subsidy is looking more like £480 per household, and if projections are correct, and we get down to around £11 bn that's around £400. Not ideal, but we might as well use an up to date figure.

And that figures dwarfed by social security (about £7.9k) https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-and-caseload-tables-information-and-guidance

Healthcare (£9.6k)

Healthcare expenditure, UK Health Accounts provisional estimates - Office for National Statistics

Provisional healthcare expenditure statistics for 2020.

www.ons.gov.uk

Etc.

I agree that we need to continue gradually moving back to more traditional expenditure figures on the railway, but I would dispute that the current figures mean we should be panicking and certainly don't believe it justifies permanently damaging the railway with cuts. I also suspect that quite a large proportion of the public do use the railway, albeit maybe not all as frequently as others.

 

[Siggy1980s]

Im applying for a Van driving job, which 10.50 an hour, and Ive not seen the whole Van driving, industry, going out on strike, over pay, so I do think the railway workers, are being greedy, especially as quite a few are on good money, and should be thankful, they have good pay and conditions. It’s tough times for everyone, and this not time to strike, and destroy your industry, and though the government wont get rid of the railways, they sure can make big cuts, egged on by the strikes.

The government, sees the railways as needing to generate good revenue, after the big bailout during covid, so striking, and robbing the railways of much needed revenue, when it is getting busy, with leisure travellers on Saturdays etc, is jus plain folly, and im tempted, if the government, brings in allowing Agency staff to work on railways, during the strikes, to take an Agency job on the railways, no quelms.

Van Driving, I don't mean to sound derogatory! But come on! Really? It's hardly driving or signalling a train with hundreds of people on, or a chemical train full of nasty things... Its not dealing with self appointed railway experts (who actually come across as nasty and vindictive) aka the travelling public.

 

[Gems]

Van Driving, I don't mean to sound derogatory! But come on! Really? It's hardly driving or signalling a train with hundreds of people on, or a chemical train full of nasty things...

Oh behave, you are being a little ungracious now. Let me ask you a question here.

Who is more important a binman or a doctor? You could argue a doctor, but is a doctor going to empty your bin when it is overflowing and rats come a calling?

Don't be ungracious about other peoples roles in life, every role is important to somebody.

 

[DarloRich]

Im applying for a Van driving job, which 10.50 an hour, and Ive not seen the whole Van driving, industry, going out on strike, over pay, so I do think the railway workers, are being greedy, especially as quite a few are on good money, and should be thankful, they have good pay and conditions. It’s tough times for everyone, and this not time to strike, and destroy your industry, and though the government wont get rid of the railways, they sure can make big cuts, egged on by the strikes.

What you are saying is that I am treated badly and paid badly so all should be treated the same. That seems to be exactly what Johnson and Shapps et al want. I don't understand why you would take that stance but each to thier own.

and im tempted, if the government, brings in allowing Agency staff to work on railways, during the strikes, to take an Agency job on the railways, no quelms.

Personally I couldn't do that but people have a different moral code. Out of interest what role do you think would be offered to agency staff? They wont give you a go driving the train or pulling the signal levers.

 

[TheEdge]

Im applying for a Van driving job, which 10.50 an hour, and Ive not seen the whole Van driving, industry, going out on strike, over pay, so I do think the railway workers, are being greedy, especially as quite a few are on good money, and should be thankful, they have good pay and conditions. It’s tough times for everyone, and this not time to strike, and destroy your industry, and though the government wont get rid of the railways, they sure can make big cuts, egged on by the strikes.

You know the one group who it isn't tough times for? The people telling you what tough times it is for everyone. Just remember Andrew Haines is on £585,000 per annum, but NR can't afford a 5% payrise on wages in the £20s...

 

[YorkshireBear]

TSSA balloting NR as expected, sigh.

If I don't do my job it will impact nobody except me (unless I went on strike for months every day) so all in doing is making a rod for my own back. Selfish I know.

I really do not believe this is a battle that will be won and agree the unions have bitten off more than they can chew. Some TSSA members think we should strike simply because we are losing members to the RMT. A noble reason if ever I heard one.

 

[Siggy1980s]

Oh behave, you are being a little ungracious now. Let me ask you a question here.

Who is more important a binman or a doctor? You could argue a doctor, but is a doctor going to empty your bin when it is overflowing and rats come a calling?

Don't be ungracious about other peoples roles in life, every role is important to somebody.

I'll answer your question. A doctor. If the bin men strike, I'll take my rubbish to the skip. If the doctors go on strike, I can't diagnose my self.

I stand by what I said, a van driver, yes important! But not the responsibility, so not as important. If I make a train fall off or kill people while doing my job by accident, I potentially go to prison for a long time. Ironically, another reason we are all unionised.

You know exactly what I am trying to get at. Stop trying to knit noodles.

 

[YorkshireBear]

You know the one group who it isn't tough times for? The people telling you what tough times it is for everyone. Just remember Andrew Haines is on £585,000 per annum, but NR can't afford a 5% payrise on wages in the £20s...

A 5% payrise for 20,000 staff on £20K per year would cost £20,000,000.

Let's not pretend that sacking Andrew Haines would make this magically go away shall we? This is not a defence of him personally at all but I am sick of seeing this attitude of well if we reduce the wage of the executives we can all have a jolly pay rise. It is a stupid comparison.

 

[Siggy1980s]

im tempted, if the government, brings in allowing Agency staff to work on railways, during the strikes, to take an Agency job on the railways, no quelms.

Enjoy your career with no T&Cs and rubbish pension, checking tickets on a cold draughty platform. Because guess what, you ain't going to be Signalling trains through the network and you also won't be driving them. Not as some agency worker.

 

[westv]

I know the strikes can be called off as close as the evening of the 20th but how much notice is needed by the TOCs before their amended timetables for the 21st come into effect anyway.

 

[TheEdge]

A 5% payrise for 20,000 staff on £20K per year would cost £20,000,000.

Let's not pretend that sacking Andrew Haines would make this magically go away shall we? This is not a defence of him personally at all but I am sick of seeing this attitude of well if we reduce the wage of the executives we can all have a jolly pay rise. It is a stupid comparison.

I'm not suggesting sacking him, or any other director. But its still absolutely sickening being told how their is no money available by people who are on monstrously huge salaries. By people who absolutely are not suffering at all by the cost of living issues.

 

[Gems]

I'll answer your question. A doctor. If the bin men strike, I'll take my rubbish to the skip. If the doctors go on strike, I can't diagnose my self.

I stand by what I said, a van driver, yes important! But not the responsibility, so not as important. If I make a train fall off or kill people while doing my job by accident, I potentially go to prison for a long time. Ironically, another reason we are all unionised.

You know exactly what I am trying to get at. Stop trying to knit noodles.

Your argument and tone is purile to be honest. You fail completely to see others points of view, your reasoning is elitist. There is no easy way to say this, but most signallers are just semi skilled lever pullers. You didn't go to university, spend ££££s getting a degree to pull leavers. But yet you feel up there above those who did, and you look down on those who deliver your amazon parcels to your door.

My friend you are diluting your argument by being who you are.

 

[wobman]

Firstly I don't know any roles where Saturday working is voluntary.... secondly, unions are in favour of bringing Sunday into the working week. It's TOCs and DfT who don't want to because it requires an increased headcount (which will cost more than the overtime bill).

People that work in the industry explain this very frequently but it doesn't suit many posters agenda of blaming the staff, I work Saturday as a normal working day with no extra supplement added. Sundays are a non working day so covered by overtime were i work & the dft / tocs prefer it this way to save costs like you say.

 

[Ivor]

Oh behave, you are being a little ungracious now. Let me ask you a question here.

Who is more important a binman or a doctor? You could argue a doctor, but is a doctor going to empty your bin when it is overflowing and rats come a calling?

Don't be ungracious about other peoples roles in life, every role is important to somebody.

You beat me to a similar response I was about to draft, I totally agree with you. My current role on the railway pays less than @cambsy £10.50 van driving job he’s applied for but it is what it is.

In life sometimes we have to do what we have to do!

Better somebody gets out there in the work place if they can no matter what the role is if it ‘puts food on the table’ sorry to use an old cliche.

 

[Efini92]

Enjoy your career with no T&Cs and rubbish pension, checking tickets on a cold draughty platform. Because guess what, you ain't going to be Signalling trains through the network and you also won't be driving them. Not as some agency worker.

Unless they hire the A team.

 

[Siggy1980s]

Your argument and tone is purile to be honest. You fail completely to see others points of view, your reasoning is elitist. There is no easy way to say this, but most signallers are just semi skilled lever pullers. You didn't go to university, spend ££££s getting a degree to pull leavers. But yet you feel up there above those who did, and you look down on those who deliver your amazon parcels to your door.

My friend you are diluting your argument by being who you are.

How misinformed you are....... Lever Pullers? Are you for real? At least 40% of my colleagues in my little lever box (major signalling centre) are paying off university debt while bringing up families. Lever Pullers...... . And if we have this idea of grandeur, why have we not been on strike for near as damn it 30 years.

 

[Captain Chaos]

My question I've always wanted the Government to answer is this: Why does the railway have to make a profit and not be a cost to the taxpayer, albeit a small one in terms relative to other areas?

They speak of how it is an essential service, so surely it's true value in society is not the financial profit it directly generates, but what it provides to the society it serves and the money it brings into those communities? I'm not saying it should be free. I'm saying perhaps it would help if the Government would open it's eyes and be honest about what they want the railway to really be, either a money maker, or a necessary cost in GDP creation which might make money sometimes. Maybe I'm being wishful? I don't know...

 

[Caaardiff]

A big issue here is that the Railways have always been subsidised and there's decades of historic backup from Unions. Like it or not, the railways are a very well paid industry. TOC's do get more than NR in a lot of jobs, but when you look at my local TOC advertising for station cleaners at £20k a year, it's a clear sign that wages for other roles will likely be higher.
The Railway is a public service, as are bus services, but bus operators and associated job roles don't get big wages and heavy union backings. They are generally run by private bus companies. Airlines are private business and the race to the bottom had been happening for years, low wages for low fares. There are many safety critical roles within both of those industries that get paid a fraction of the equivalent railway roles.
By all means those in safety critical roles do deserve to be paid well, but the entitlement of some railway workers that believe they are better than other industries safety critical roles is absurd.

If the railways were totally privatised decades ago and wages weren't continually raised as they have been, would anyone have quizzed any differently? No. The Railway is a public service and should be provided as so, cheap fares and reliable service to enable people to get around. It's not cheap to run a creaking aged railway but the wage bill in this country for it must be astronomical.
It's not nice but change needs to happen, more so from the top down, TOC's and NR need to be more economical and efficient rather than continually p****ng taxpayers money up the wall. Pay safety critical roles well, as is deserved, but remove all the BS that comes with it like Union red tape, reliance on weekend overtime and jobs for the boys in Management tiers. Before anyone comes back with the argument that it's the TOC's that want the overtime, that shouldn't be an issue. It's the passenger that loses out. If more people need to be employed to properly cover the service then do it, and find cost savings elsewhere. If workers need to work a 7 day week and the overtime gets spread out, do it. Stop arguing about who does and doesn't want what and make it work for the passenger.
And for anyone that argues "railway workers won't work overtime when it's sunny", come to Wales when it's sunny or there's a big event on, try and catch a train or check the TOC's website for the number of cancellations. It happens regularly.