Rail strikes discussion

[Efini92]

Personally if I joined the railway I would join a union but not the RMT. The others are generally much more sensible and measured in their approach.

It depends on the grade you’d join. I wouldn’t join the RMT as a driver (with the exception of London Underground).
Everything else below management grades and there’s only really the RMT, and in fairness some of their local reps are fantastic.

 

[Towers]

My point of view as a train conductor of over 20 years summed up is this.

I took a £7k pay cut coming into this job. I took it because I was at the time of life where the railway long term offered me a bit of security. It was a risk, but because of pay rises it was a risk that paid off. What amazed me was the relaxed regime. Yes you have rules, medicals, screenings, and abusive passengers, but you also don't have managers demanding you push a brush around the floor if you are sat spare for a shift. I have also never been in a job pre railway where you can get a three hour flyer.
What amazes me more is how people in this job very quickly seem to take these perks for granted. I take my lad once a year on the Cally sleeper as a trip out, couldn't do that without the perks my job offers. The railway overall has been good to me and my family.

Now it is time to put something back. We are in trouble, passengers numbers are falling off, revenue is dropping away. I can do one of two things. I can strike, or I can work a extra rest day to make up for the rising inflation. I'll choose the later. This is why I found Grant Shapps comments about overtime working offensive. Not all of us work rest days to make up for strikes, some of us do it to help ourselves out and to help the travelling public out. I don't like Tory governments, but just because you don't like the messenger doesn't mean the message is wrong.

I know some railway grade are not paid as well as mine, and I have sympathy with that. But neither do I care for those who are paid more than me thinking the gravy train is a ongoing journey whilst those who we take to work are struggling.

It is time to make contact with reality.

I concur!

For all those who raise the point about "how do you think the job got the pay & conditions that it has", I completely agree and it is of course a very valid point. However, that doesn't singlehandedly justify every future strike, just because. Each occasion needs to be judged on its merits, not automatically assumed to be justified purely because of historic reasons. Traincrew are very well paid, and work with truly excellent T&Cs. Ask someone who drives for a living, sat behind a steering wheel requiring 100% effort throughout, who doesn't get paid for their breaks. Explain to them how spare or standby works, shooting off home several hours early as a matter of routine. Or minimum overtime payments, or those 'special turns' dished out as overtime with an hour or two's work content in them.

There is a difference between "race to the bottom" and simply having a level of self awareness. Nobody is suggesting that pay or T&Cs should be slashed. They remain superb. However the railway has a truly difficult task attempting to explain why it should be at the front of the queue right now for a payrise, quite honestly.

 

[Val3ntine]

I. Have just applied for a railway job, locally, and I know with the strikes, its not easiest time to join the railways, but id be happy, just to get the job, and the pay and conditions, look fine to me. Im not interested in the politics, and would not support the strike, only thing the RMT would be of use to me, is in dispute etc, and if the choice was, if join union id have to strike, then I wouldnt join union.on principle, and id be just happy to get to work on the railways. All my jobs so far have had no union, so I dont need one now.

Just a slight point I wanted to touch on but you say the pay and conditions look alright to you, that’s only the case because of hard fought battles historically and recently to keep pay and conditions attractive.

The rights and wrongs of the current industrial disputes are obviously subject to heavy differences of opinions however, the pay and conditions you may be about to enjoy certainly weren't gifted by any means.

 

[Need2]

but id be happy, just to get the job, and the pay and conditions, look fine to me. Im not interested in the politics, and would not support the strike, only thing the RMT would be of use to me, is in dispute etc,

Wow!
One of the most selfish statements I’ve seen for a long while.

 

[Towers]

Just a slight point I wanted to touch on but you say the pay and conditions look alright to you, that’s only the case because of hard fought battles historically and recently to keep pay and conditions attractive.

The rights and wrongs of the current industrial disputes are obviously subject to heavy differences of opinions however, the pay and conditions you may be about to enjoy certainly weren't gifted by any means.

Right on queue!

Battles were hard faught many times over many years. However, we now see the same level of fighting over a matter that truly fades into insignificance in comparison to those past battles. You cannot blame people coming into the industry now for thinking that the RMT looks increasingly like it has run out of genuine causes. National strike over a small percentage payrise, in the current climate, with the industry already slowly dying?!

As I said above, past battles are simply not a justification for what lies ahead!

 

[wobman]

Right on queue!

Battles were hard faught many times over many years. However, we now see the same level of fighting over a matter that truly fades into insignificance in comparison to those past battles. You cannot blame people coming into the industry now for thinking that the RMT looks increasingly like it has run out of genuine causes. National strike over a small percentage payrise, in the current climate, with the industry already slowly dying?!

As I said above, past battles are simply not a justification for what lies ahead!

How is the industry slowly dying ?

Post covid passenger numbers are 80 to over 90% & rising, there's huge investment in new rolling stock. Big recruitment drives by many tocs & focs, the station car parks are full again.

A genuine cause is 1000s of network rail staff losing jobs or being redeployed, genuine cause is were staff have had no rises in 3yrs but inflation & cost of living is going through the roof.

 

[43096]

Ok then, show me where I can drive trains as an agency worker.

Some agency worker.
Some signaller.
Some train driver.
Some pilot.

Its a generic term and covers all aspects of life.

Some of the smaller operators have part time drivers who work on a zero hours contract basis.

 

[2021_Signaller]

Right on queue!

Battles were hard faught many times over many years. However, we now see the same level of fighting over a matter that truly fades into insignificance in comparison to those past battles. You cannot blame people coming into the industry now for thinking that the RMT looks increasingly like it has run out of genuine causes. National strike over a small percentage payrise, in the current climate, with the industry already slowly dying?!

As I said above, past battles are simply not a justification for what lies ahead!

Disagree. I don't know how well the 'modernisation' agenda has been communicated across the industry, but I'm telling you from a NR perspective this will do serious damage to operational staff trying to run a service. The industry won't benefit one bit, quite the opposite. It certainly won't benefit passengers either because there will be so many more delays due to the workload on signallers, particularly in busy one-man boxes, trying to manage failures until the end of their shifts. I think after a few hours they'll just stop the job because it's too dangerous to carry on working and I'd fully support them doing so.

What some people don't understand is that in these one person boxes, they don't get meal breaks. They work 12 hours alone. If you have a busy box and you start getting failures in addition to that, the job will quickly become impossible without the support staff that the modernisation agenda is about to make night work only. That's why the signallers are all out and why the strikes for NR will go the distance.

 

[Towers]

Disagree. I don't know how well the 'modernisation' agenda has been communicated across the industry, but I'm telling you from a NR perspective this will do serious damage to operational staff trying to run a service. The industry won't benefit one bit, quite the opposite. It certainly won't benefit passengers either because there will be so many more delays due to the workload on signallers, particularly in busy one-man boxes, trying to manage failures until the end of their shifts. I think after a few hours they'll just stop the job because it's too dangerous to carry on working and I'd fully support them doing so.

What some people don't understand is that in these one person boxes, they don't get meal breaks. They work 12 hours alone. If you have a busy box and you start getting failures in addition to that, the job will quickly become impossible without the support staff that the modernisation agenda is about to make night work only. That's why the signallers are all out and why the strikes for NR will go the distance.

Ah, I was referring only to the traincrew side of things - I wouldn't pretend to have any understanding of the NR situation, which you clearly do have!

Without wishing to go too far off topic, what arrangements are there for a solo signaller to take a break if their day has been marred by disruption? Presumably a last resort would be to close the box if the bobby demanded a break?

 

[Monty]

The pay and conditions may look okay on the face of it, but when you factor in the shifts its puts things into perspective. My job has basically made my wife unemployable because of childcare restrictions. This leaves me as the sole provider and because of my 'good' wages I am entitled to no support from the government.

The railway is all I know and I have invested a good part of my adulthood dedicating my life to it's service. I want to be treated with fairness and respect, something that has been lacking recently everywhere I look. For what it's worth I'm not looking for some 'massive rise' of 5% I would settle for a bit of security and the company running some night trains to help staff get to and from work without having to use the car, when you consider the money was found to give the drivers at my company 10k last year and about 8% on top of that this year what I am asking for is not unreasonable.

I'll be withdrawing my labour next week because I feel like I have no choice not because of 'greed' and I take issue with people on this forum who do not know me insinuating as such. I genuinely feel sorry for people who work in industries where they do not have a voice, because they should.

As a final note, I find myself posting on this forum a joined many years ago less and less because the increasingly hostile atmosphere amongst it's members and not just towards staff. My perception is that the atmosphere here has become quite toxic and as a result we have lost a good number of very knowledgeable and helpful people as a result. Thls thread alone proves to me how much of an ugly place this forum can be.

 

[wobman]

Wow!
One of the most selfish statements I’ve seen for a long while.

There's lots of posters saying I'm alright jack, so I don't care about your problems.
Strikes are the last resort & it takes the threats of strikes to get the stubborn management back around the table.

People don't understand the art of negotiation, you aim high & then find common ground. This can take time to resolve but how can people not realise this !

It saddens me how much contempt is shown towards railway workers by many posters, these are real people with families / bills to pay. They make it sound like railway staff are paid like footballers or city traders.....

 

[baz962]

The railways are subsidised to the tune of over £600 a year per household, Given most people do not use the railways that's a crazy level of subsidy

Another problem is the railways are a 24/7 business but on many lines working at weekends is voluntary and paid overtime rates. That's a crazy way to run a business and has to change

You do know that the unions want the reliance on overtime to end and Sunday in the week. It's the companies that don't.

 

[Towers]

The pay and conditions may look okay on the face of it, but when you factor in the shifts its puts things into perspective. My job has basically made my wife unemployable because of childcare restrictions. This leaves me as the sole provider and because of my 'good' wages I am entitled to no support from the government.

The railway is all I know and I have invested a good part of my adulthood dedicating my life to it's service. I want to be treated with fairness and respect, something that has been lacking recently everywhere I look. For what it's worth I'm not looking for some 'massive rise' of 5% I would settle for a bit of security and the company running some night trains to help staff get to and from work without having to use the car, when you consider the money was found to give the drivers at my company 10k last year and about 8% on top of that this year what I am asking for is not unreasonable.

I'll be withdrawing my labour next week because I feel like I have no choice not because of 'greed' and I take issue with people on this forum who do not know me insinuating as such. I genuinely feel sorry for people who work industries where they do not have a voice, because they should.

As a final note, I find myself posting on this forum a joined many years ago less and less because the increasingly hostile atmosphere amongst it's members and not just towards staff. My perception is that the atmosphere here has become quite toxic and as a result we have lost a good number of very knowledgeable and helpful people as a result. Thls thread alone proves to me how much of an ugly place this forum can be.

All fair points, and of course an essential part of the modern workplace is the willingness and ability for colleagues to respect one another's differing viewpoints.

It's interesting to hear some arguments other than purely financial - I'm interested as to what would constitute the security that you mention, and what the current threat to it is viewed as being?

 

[Woolos 22]

If the rmt member s want a better pay job why do they look of a job somewhere else with better pay with the qualification they have.

 

[Towers]

If the rmt member s want a better pay job why do they look of a job somewhere else with better pay with the qualification they have.

Not a helpful post, as I'm sure you know.

It would be a shame if this thread were to be locked, unfortunately inflammatory comments aimed at goading other posters will probably do it...

 

[ar10642]

Wow!
One of the most selfish statements I’ve seen for a long while.

This sort of comment is why I'd never work on the railway despite being interested in it. I won't be emotionally blackmailed into joining an organisation that I don't agree with. Best to just get a job without any of this baggage.

 

[Monty]

All fair points, and of course an essential part of the modern workplace is the willingness and ability for colleagues to respect one another's differing viewpoints.

It's interesting to hear some arguments other than purely financial - I'm interested as to what would constitute the security that you mention, and what the current threat to it is viewed as being?

For me I'd like to see the company agree to leaving my pension alone (it's only thing I have of value) and not do attempt a P&O fire and rehire.

 

[CFRAIL]

The pay and conditions may look okay on the face of it, but when you factor in the shifts its puts things into perspective. My job has basically made my wife unemployable because of childcare restrictions. This leaves me as the sole provider and because of my 'good' wages I am entitled to no support from the government.

The railway is all I know and I have invested a good part of my adulthood dedicating my life to it's service. I want to be treated with fairness and respect, something that has been lacking recently everywhere I look. For what it's worth I'm not looking for some 'massive rise' of 5% I would settle for a bit of security and the company running some night trains to help staff get to and from work without having to use the car, when you consider the money was found to give the drivers at my company 10k last year and about 8% on top of that this year what I am asking for is not unreasonable.

I'll be withdrawing my labour next week because I feel like I have no choice not because of 'greed' and I take issue with people on this forum who do not know me insinuating as such. I genuinely feel sorry for people who work in industries where they do not have a voice, because they should.

As a final note, I find myself posting on this forum a joined many years ago less and less because the increasingly hostile atmosphere amongst it's members and not just towards staff. My perception is that the atmosphere here has become quite toxic and as a result we have lost a good number of very knowledgeable and helpful people as a result. Thls thread alone proves to me how much of an ugly place this forum can be.

I feel exactly the same with regards childcare arrangements!

 

[Gems]

Just a slight point I wanted to touch on but you say the pay and conditions look alright to you, that’s only the case because of hard fought battles historically and recently to keep pay and conditions attractive.

The rights and wrongs of the current industrial disputes are obviously subject to heavy differences of opinions however, the pay and conditions you may be about to enjoy certainly weren't gifted by any means.

Where are our terms and condition being eroded exactly?

 

[Towers]

For me I'd like to see the company agree to leaving my pension alone (it's only thing I have of value) and not do attempt a P&O fire and rehire.

This is the problem though, how is that quantified into any sort of meaningful guarantee?! Excepting that what P&O did was specific to the peculiarities of maritime law anyway. What, exactly, is the RMT looking for to settle that aspect? A signed contract? And for how long? It just doesn't really work. And is increasingly unlikely if what should have been a decent summer for the industry is about to be blown to bits, leading to even more uncertainty about future staffing levels.

 

[Monty]

This is the problem though, how is that quantified into any sort of meaningful guarantee?! Excepting that what P&O did was specific to the peculiarities of maritime law anyway. What, exactly, is the RMT looking for to settle that aspect? A signed contract? And for how long? It just doesn't really work. And is increasingly unlikely if what should have been a decent summer for the industry is about to be blown to bits, leading to even more uncertainty about future staffing levels.

I'd at least expect some kind of gesture from the company, but the telling thing has been the silence and that is deafening.

 

[ar10642]

I'd at least expect some kind of gesture from the company, but the telling thing has been the silence and that is deafening.

How can anyone give any guarantees on pensions in the face of 11% inflation and falling markets? I don't understand what it is you're looking for.

 

[Towers]

I'd at least expect some kind of gesture from the company, but the telling thing has been the silence and that is deafening.

A gesture of what, though?

I'm sorry if this comes over as pedantic, but it highlights the concerns held by those who have their doubts as to the merits of all of this. I am employed, I have a contract. There is employment law. I like my job and have no desire to see it taken away from me. But equally I appreciate that I cannot demand some sort of cast iron guarantee that it will last forever. That is surely the basics of being employed. I'm at a loss as to what exactly it is that the RMT are asking for.

 

[Monty]

What am looking for is that industry I have dedicated my life to has my back in these rather dark times. If they can't do it finicially I would at least like to see them make efforts to make it easier to for us to be able get into work without using a car (see my earlier post), I'd also like them to commit to them not attempting to make any changes to my pension. Its not much to ask, I am not asking for an 11% rise and a golden handshake.

 

[2021_Signaller]

Ah, I was referring only to the traincrew side of things - I wouldn't pretend to have any understanding of the NR situation, which you clearly do have!

Without wishing to go too far off topic, what arrangements are there for a solo signaller to take a break if their day has been marred by disruption? Presumably a last resort would be to close the box if the bobby demanded a break?

They only tend to make arrangements when they know some of the little boxes will be extremely busy because there are big events on like Golf Open Championships with trains running every couple of minutes for most of the day.

In the event that you have failures though there is no relief. You're just expected to deal with it and you tend to get through it because you don't have to manage for too long with the failures because you can get the S&T to site to start working on the problem. If you have a busy workload and failures and no prospect of any support though which is what's being proposed now, what's the signaller supposed to do? They can phone their manager, for whatever good that will do. The signaller will just have to stop signalling. The alternative and being held criminally responsible for something that happens because you should have realised your limits just doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[dakta]

Not a helpful post, as I'm sure you know.

It would be a shame if this thread were to be locked, unfortunately inflammatory comments aimed at goading other posters will probably do it...

I know what your saying but it was only a few pages ago the response from some for someone stating they as a van driver could do with a bit more than a near minimum wage was 'you cant have much aspiration in life' - which is a bit of a similar argument coming from the other side.

Whilst I found it a little rude, maybe they had a little bit of a point, want more money or if things are changing and you're struggling then get up the ladder or into something that will meet that demand.

Whilst I don't actually agree this view, as I think everyone should be on a decent screw pretty much whatever their role, if it's okay to tlel a van driver that they need to aim higher if they want something more to keep up with the cost of living as such I've no personal qualm with indicating the same message beyond van driving

 

[Need2]

This sort of comment is why I'd never work on the railway despite being interested in it. I won't be emotionally blackmailed into joining an organisation that I don't agree with. Best to just get a job without any of this baggage.

You’ve taken it completely the wrong way.
My point is that this person is very happy with the wages and t&c’s that the union and the historical work force fought for, yet only wants the union to help him in any dispute he might have.
Is that not being selfish then?

Edit: Don’t make the excuse of not wanting to join the union as a reason for not applying, you don’t have to join the union, it’s not a closed shop!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would be a shame if this thread were to be locked, unfortunately inflammatory comments aimed at goading other posters will probably do it...

Is there not a "red-printed preamble" at the start of this thread from the moderation team stating that on this thread only, a certain amount of leeway would be allowed in postings?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is a "strike timetable?"

Is it a guaranteed minimal service or is this still likely to have ad hoc cancellations at short notice "on the day"?

 

[TrainGeekUK]

I wonder if things will turn out differently under Johnson than they did under Mrs Thatcher.

Thatcher set a collision course with all unions in her tenure… will Johnson do the same as he well known with his opinions to be a real Thatcherite.