Rail strikes discussion

[WelshBluebird]

I didn't begrudge anyone getting paid what they do but I was highliting perspective. How many cleaners get £20k or more in other industries?

You realise that £20k is pretty much minimum wage if you work full time hours right? It certainly isn't much these days at all.
And according to several results on Google at least, the average cleaner salary in the UK is somewhere in the region of £20k too.
So your suggestion that railway cleaners being paid £20k is somehow too much and is more than cleaners in other industries is pretty misleading and quite inaccurate to say the least.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Hopefully your application is unsuccessful. The people who have fought hard to have pay and conditions that “look fine” to you don’t need the likes of you undermining their efforts to secure better terms and conditions during the worst cost of living crisis many of us have ever seen.

And this comment is just an example of why the unions appear out of touch. Every industry is suffering the cost of living crisis - but others don't have unions going round preaching hysteria of mass redundancies on TOCs which are already understaffed!

Personally, I want to see a pay rise across the board - but equally, as a passenger, I want to see a guard on every service rather than them just retreating to the back cab. I've had railway staff who have gone out of my way to make my journey better - and equally have been subjected to the coach K messroom on Avanti on a full whack First ticket which wasn't the most pleasant experience.

 

[wobman]

Are you saying that cleaners will be on the same wage as customer service & station staff? Because that was my point. I didn't begrudge anyone getting paid what they do but I was highliting perspective. How many cleaners get £20k or more in other industries?

Also I notice TfW are one of the few TOCs not striking. Didnt they agree 3-3.5% payrise? What's different in Wales that only allows that? Again, perspective....

A simple Google search shows the average cleaners salary is £21k, so you want cleaners to be on less ?

I never mentioned cleaners on parity with station staff, were did I say that ?

Each job has its own skill sets, i would want to be cleaning up sick all day on trains / stations or cleaning the toilets after the state some get in. I think cleaners deserve more, thats maybe why Tfw took the cleaners in house when the took over the franchise.

Regarding the 3% pay rise for tfw drivers, that was backdated from last year and to work towards talking about having Sundays as a working day.
If you researched you will find tfw drivers are on the lower range of drivers salaries compared to other tocs & as a result its losing lots of drivers to other tocs. The rise was part of a package to help retain these drivers at a time of a driver shortage. That to me is good business sence but many will find fault with that no doubt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, I want to see a pay rise across the board - but equally, as a passenger, I want to see a guard on every service rather than them just retreating to the back cab.

Yes, this. There is a culture of laziness on the south WCML - only the same maybe 4-5 guards bother doing tickets or actively providing passenger assistance, you recognise the faces.

 

[Gems]

In fairness I think it was your depot (I’m guessing Leeds) that stopped the deal going through.
There is that arrogance on both sides. I remember once of the RMT company council reps telling their members to vote for a deal, telling them I’d ASLEF get any more (they were balloting) they would get the increase as well.

No Leeds isn't my depot, I'd hate to work at the evil empire. But you are right that Leeds scuppered it. But lets not pretend it was through a noble cause. It was scuppered because those who insist on thinking when they are not very good at it, thought they would come back with a better offer.

 

[Jordan1296]

LNER have released their temporary timetables for the strike days next week. 38% of services will be running, and nothing will run north of Edinburgh (so no services to Glasgow, Inverness, Aberdeen & Stirling).

 

[Adam Williams]

And 400% higher than the average rail worker who is set to lose the equivalent of 1% pay rise per strike day over a year. All so he can have a political scrap with his arch enemy Johnson

Damn, that's a really good point. Maybe for future strike action we could ask unionised rail workers if they're supportive or not of the action or if indeed they consider it nothing more than a "political scrap" - in which union members are pawns - that they have no desire to take part in?

We could even have some sort of vote, maybe call it a ballot, to determine if there's majority consensus?

 

[Goldfish62]

What it looks like is that National Express are capitalising on other people misery.

A reality check. National Express and other coach operators have received not a penny of industry specific assistance during or recovering from Covid. They had to close down their entire network and put all staff on furlough during the first lockdown.

 

[Efini92]

No Leeds isn't my depot, I'd hate to work at the evil empire. But you are right that Leeds scuppered it. But lets not pretend it was through a noble cause. It was scuppered because those who insist on thinking when they are not very good at it, thought they would come back with a better offer.

Well they did everyone a favour (even if it was by accident), that deal was terrible and the company council had been rather stupid about wording within the deal exposing them all to impositions on nearly everything.

 

[mike57]

Look at this dispute from Boris's point of view, hes had a lot of negative publicity recently, resulting in confidence vote with in his own party in which 40% think he should be replaced, what better to take everyones mind off it all than a scrap with a Union which he can paint as being unreasonable and politically motivated, and the railways as a drain on taxpayers. From his point of view, bring it on...

What %age of the population use the railways regularly? say more than once per week

How many of them can work from home?

What %age use the railways occasionally?

So how many people are going to be seriously inconvenienced with a long drawn out bitter dispute, and how many of those voted Boris in...

 

[Kite159]

I suspect there will be some staff who are part of the Union who voted against strike action, will mysterious catch Covid (easy to fake a positive result on those cheaper lat flow tests) by Friday so they can go "sick" for next week. To avoid losing money as they can't go to work to avoid spreading the virus etc.

 

[skyhigh]

I suspect there will be some staff who are part of the Union who voted against strike action, will mysterious catch Covid (easy to fake a positive result on those cheaper lat flow tests) by Friday so they can go "sick" for next week. To avoid losing money as they can't go to work to avoid spreading the virus etc.

Doubt it somehow. Covid self-isolation now comes under normal sickness procedures at English TOCs so it now goes on your record.

 

[LowLevel]

I suspect there will be some staff who are part of the Union who voted against strike action, will mysterious catch Covid (easy to fake a positive result on those cheaper lat flow tests) by Friday so they can go "sick" for next week. To avoid losing money as they can't go to work to avoid spreading the virus etc.

Sickness during strike action requires a doctor's note or it's unpaid.

 

[CFRAIL]

Sickness during strike action requires a doctor's note or it's unpaid.

Good luck getting a sick note or doctors appt.

 

[ungreat]

I'd never scab.
Anyone who does just gets what they deserve.
Been a driver 35 years and I've seen the blowback on scabbing.
My outlook on it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==

I suspect there will be some staff who are part of the Union who voted against strike action, will mysterious catch Covid (easy to fake a positive result on those cheaper lat flow tests) by Friday so they can go "sick" for next week. To avoid losing money as they can't go to work to avoid spreading the virus etc.

Scabs in another name tbh

 

[High Dyke]

In a previous place of employment (none railway), there was a strike ballot over pay which came back overwhelmingly as a yes to strike.

I personally was in the union, and voted not against, but I went with the action anyway. The union where giving us some payments to cover the lost wages but it was nowhere near the lost wages and a real struggle to make ends meet.

Some colleagues were even loaning money to others who were struggling so they didnt cross the picket line.

There were a handful who did cross the line. They became known as scabs and got a lot of abuse for it. 3 of them resigned soon after. A couple stayed and still 5 years later arnt really spoken to, and won't go into canteen/messrooms.

I do see it from multiple sides, but the abuse for those who cross the line is certainly very real!

Any abuse is unacceptable!

 

[Agent_Squash]

I'd never scab.
Anyone who does just gets what they deserve.
Been a driver 35 years and I've seen the blowback on scabbing.
My outlook on it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==


Scabs in another name tbh

You'd think a modern railway would move away from terms such as 'scab' - really unprofessional.

 

[Need2]

Any abuse is unacceptable!

Understandable maybe, but I agree in it being totally unacceptable.

 

[johncrossley]

There were a handful who did cross the line. They became known as scabs and got a lot of abuse for it.

Could you elaborate on the 'abuse'? Surely the abusers should face disciplinary action?

 

[uww11x]

I'd never scab.
Anyone who does just gets what they deserve.
Been a driver 35 years and I've seen the blowback on scabbing.
My outlook on it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==


Scabs in another name tbh

Isn't that Boomer behaviour?

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally if I joined the railway I would join a union but not the RMT. The others are generally much more sensible and measured in their approach.

You'd join the RMT if they represented your grade. You don't have to sign up for their bonkers politics. They are very, very good at the coal face, supporting colleagues and I know a few excellent reps.

 

[HST274]

I'd never scab.
Anyone who does just gets what they deserve.
Been a driver 35 years and I've seen the blowback on scabbing.
My outlook on it

Like someone says, any abuse is unnacceptable. Any 'punishment' as it were in any business should go through 'proper' procedure. What are, if any, the repercussions of not/ refusing to strike when the rest of the union is?

 

[wobman]

Like someone says, any abuse is unnacceptable. Any 'punishment' as it were in any business should go through 'proper' procedure. What are, if any, the repercussions of not/ refusing to strike when the rest of the union is?

It's a personal choice to cross a picket line or work during a strike, any abuse would be unacceptable & the person that abused the person would be disciplined using the businesses set out procedures.

But they will have to bear in mind some of their colleagues may treat them differently afterwards, they will be professional with but personal friendships / relationships may change with colleagues.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'd never scab.
Anyone who does just gets what they deserve.
Been a driver 35 years and I've seen the blowback on scabbing.
My outlook on it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jun 2022 ==


Scabs in another name tbh

Wow, haven't heard 'scab' for years - nothing like reminding people that unions haven't really moved on since Scargill.!

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that discussion about strike timetables should be made in the appropriate thread in the Allocations, Diagrams and Timetables section of the forum.

 

[Moonshot]

Like someone says, any abuse is unnacceptable. Any 'punishment' as it were in any business should go through 'proper' procedure. What are, if any, the repercussions of not/ refusing to strike when the rest of the union is?

The one I know of from last time RMT went on strike gets treated like a pariah. Doesn't get any help with shift/holiday swaps etc.....

 

[Horizon22]

The one I know of from last time RMT went on strike gets treated like a pariah. Doesn't get any help with shift/holiday swaps etc.....

I imagine this sort of thing does happen, and whilst unfair and technically against a whole host of policies, incredibly difficult if not impossible to prove.

 

[175001]

The railways are subsidised to the tune of over £600 a year per household, Given most people do not use the railways that's a crazy level of subsidy

Another problem is the railways are a 24/7 business but on many lines working at weekends is voluntary and paid overtime rates. That's a crazy way to run a business and has to change

C'mon Ken. About £1.32 per house a day to keep our railway network running, yet you still haven't bitten to my Rwanda flight comparison.

 

[ungreat]

Like someone says, any abuse is unnacceptable. Any 'punishment' as it were in any business should go through 'proper' procedure. What are, if any, the repercussions of not/ refusing to strike when the rest of the union is?

Join one
Don't scab
Easy

 

[Facing Back]

I get that idea because it happens. People have beaten the government in court before. Police and other agencies like them are needed as people could lose life etc without. Rail staff are safely critical in a different way. No one loses their life if trains don't run .

Typically "people have beaten the government" in judicial review where they are challenging a decision by a minister. Challenges tend to be because the decision contravenes a law, not the law itself. Parliament it generally primary in setting laws

Judges don't make primary legislation, parliament does, Judges interpret and precents are set based on those interpretations.

If parliament (not the government) votes in a law then its the law. It is possible that it can get challenged if it contravenes other laws but its still the law and the judges will apply it - even if it is a stupid law.

If the government introduces anti-strike legislation through an act of parliament I don't understand how you think the unions will successfully have the courts overturn it. If Schapps just says to the TOCs/NR "fire everyone who goes on strike" or something similar then of course that can be challenged.

More likely is that lobbying by unions would prevent the law being passed by both houses in the first place.