Rail strikes discussion

[DarloRich]

Entitled? Also are you stating that not a single rail worker was furloughed; if so, what is your definition of a "railway worker?

You are right. Entitled is the wrong word. Perhaps eligible is correct word. Apologies for being inaccurate in my statement.

As far as I am aware no one directly employed by a TOC or NR was eligible for furlough. If you have more knowledge of this area then I do please share it. I may be mistaken in my position but it is based on information supplied to me at the time. I will happily retract if you have better information to share.

Not really a constructive comment; it doesn't give your argument gravitas. If you disagree with someone, why not do so constructively?

I take the suggestion that work during lockdown was reduced or easy very personally (for personal reasons I really don't want to go into) and may not be very objective in this regard. I take your point but on this topic my quoted post might be as constructive as it gets!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are right. Entitled is the wrong word. Perhaps eligible is correct word. Apologies for being inaccurate in my statement.

As far as I am aware no one directly employed by a TOC or NR was eligible for furlough. If you have more knowledge of this area then I do please share it. I may be mistaken in my position but it is based on information supplied to me at the time. I will happily retract if you have better information to share.

I believe this was correct, essentially to avoid a money go round.

 

[kristiang85]

I have to correct the assertion by some that Brexit has not caused inflation and contributed to the cost of living crisis.Duties and shipping costs have risen on both imports and exports because of Brexit related changes.
My company estimates it's added about 4% to our cost base and higher fuel prices another 5% or so. We have had no choice but to pass on in higher prices to customers.

Higher prices cause inflation and most of these have been driven by higher materials cost including fuel also driven by the war in urkaine.

Raising wages to fast will only contribute to price rises continuing an inflationary spriral. I don't know what the answer is but in the 70's wages rising inline with inflation killed the economy.

Although it certainly hasn't helped, the fact that many other countries are suffering inflation too shows Brexit has had negligible impact. It is mostly COVID and supply chains, and of course fuel and wheat shortages due to the war as you say (as a remain voter I would love to blame Brexit, but I feel it is not a factor here).

But I totally agree that we cannot solve this by inflating wages with inflation. Tax cuts for all alongside some kind of subsidies for the poorest might have to be the best solution, but I'm not sure to what extent the treasury can afford.

 

[Gems]

It would be gross misconduct. The right to withdraw labour doesn't extend to wilfully doing your job badly.

So Boris Johnson should be sacked for gross misconduct.

 

[dakta]

I can only apologise for not reading through this entire thread, so I hope this hasn't already been addressed.

I understand that in Japan (and possibly elsewhere), bus drivers go on 'strike' by working as normal but allowing free travel for all.

What is stopping rail workers in the UK publically announcing that rail travel across a given part of the network will have not have any kind of revenue enforcement, then running the service as normal but with all barriers open and no ticket checks? This would surely be a good way to get the public on the side of rail workers, whilst still putting pressure on TOCs and the government.

At a guess, this would be difficult because it requires full coordination between all station and on board staff, but that doesn't seem insurmountable in a scenario like the current one where so many grades are on strike anyway. Possibly monthly season ticket holders would be unhappy, but they're surely even less happy if there is no service at all.

Intriguing, I wonder how legally something like this would work because you'd technically be using company assets and consumables whilst giving a service away in contravention of the principle of the company that is responsible for said assets

 

[320320]

Don't forget to turn your phone off.

I’ve just signed for a notice saying that very thing

 

[yorkie]

You are right. Entitled is the wrong word. Perhaps eligible is correct word. Apologies for being inaccurate in my statement.

As far as I am aware no one directly employed by a TOC or NR was eligible for furlough. If you have more knowledge of this area then I do please share it. I may be mistaken in my position but it is based on information supplied to me at the time. I will happily retract if you have better information to share.


I take the suggestion that work during lockdown was reduced or easy very personally (for personal reasons I really don't want to go into) and may not be very objective in this regard. I take your point but on this topic my quoted post might be as constructive as it gets!

It's totally correct to say the vast majority of those employed within the rail industry were t eligible for furlough; agreed

Whether people were doing more, or less, work during this period was highly variable, not only by company/role but also depending on when it was measured; I think you have a good point there.

Train planners in particular have been given a particularly tough time to give just one example.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2022 ==

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by 'then', to my certain knowledge this type of behaviour was certainly still prevalent at the end of the 2010s and continued by individuals whose parents may not have even been born in the 70s let alone them, hopefully things have changed and, of course, I fully share your opinion that they are unacceptable

I think the rate of change varies hugely by a combination of the industry and also the company within the industry, and even at the local level (e.g. particular office/depot).

So yes somewhere 10 years ago could have been more backwards in this regard than another workplace 20 or even 30 years ago.

 

[DarloRich]

Train planners in particular have been given a particularly tough time to give just one example.

Absolutely! They have suffered very badly ( and will do again during the strike planning work)

 

[Starmill]

It certainly seems appropriate that RMT have called for talks with Ministers directly. I agree that this is the only kind of talking that's going to achieve a resolution now. I also agree with the line from Labour that it is a dereliction of duty on the part of the government that they've refused.

 

[Efini92]

The railway companies are not making profits let alone record profits.

The Government did not "give themselves a pay rise" - An independent review body (IPSA) made an award based on average wage growth in the public sector...and that is an award of 2.7% so substantially below inflation and indeed below private sector awards after a freeze in 2021-22.

The State wants people to have good incomes - that is what keeps the economy moving and keeps the Government winning elections but massive pay rises are not the answer to every problem...we don't have the money to spend (after we splurged it all on Covid) and the risk of inflationary spirals is real.

A deal can be done - but only if both sides are realistic which I fear is a long long way off.

First group have just announced £800M of profits. Here’s a breakdown across the TOC’s. No a single one has made a loss.

 

[LowLevel]

This action took place in the Northern pay strikes back in 2002. It actually had minimal effect. I think today it would have even less effect. It also raises the question of 'Breach of contract' Not sure how the law today would interpret this. Maybe somebody could enlighten us.
Besides. Some Leeds based crew working the Leeds North West Triangle appear to have been doing this form of action for years.

Central Trains conductors were looking at doing this in the mid 2000s and didn't go through with it on legal advice - apparently you can refuse to carry out your duties but not selectively in that manner.

 

[43066]

As I said before, if someone is saying something you disagree with (but within the rules), why not quote the relevant post(s) and state why you disagree with them, in a constructive manner? This is all part of having a constructive debate.

I don’t think the debates in this area are remotely constructive. The threads always follow the same pattern of people arguing from entrenched positions, going around in circles until they’re eventually shut down. Overall they tend to be incredibly toxic and divisive which is why many have said they won’t take part in them.

I realise the forum can’t avoid discussing the subject of IA at all, so I don’t know what the solution is, really.

We need to bring the railway into the 21st century, so the more people who have a more modern outlook, the better.

Why? There’s clearly no shortage of people wanting to join the railway. I also don’t think this idea that unions and the associated attitudes are somehow not “modern” stands up to scrutiny when the vast majority of those joining up today, even from non unionised industries, still choose to join the main railway unions because they can clearly see the benefits of doing so. It’s notable that OA operators such as LUMO who (from what I’ve read on here) try to dissuade staff from joining have quite a few members now in ASLEF and the RMT.

It’s rare today for industries to be as heavily unionised as the railway which is the main reason why attitudes such as people being anti strike breaking aren’t encountered. In those industries which are unionised and in which collective bargaining exists, these attitudes are just as prevalent in 2022 as they were in the 1970s.

You might think the demise of unions is a good thing of course. I’m not so sure I’d agree when you look at the current state of Ts and Cs for many workers in this country.

It's the militant types who are doing that.

Only by people who are of dubious character; those people are dinosoars.

Those people have no place on the railway and right minded people need to stand up to them. Attitudes are changing and we are no longer in the dark days of the 1970s but the railway is, clearly, still a bit behind the times in this regard with some dionsoar attitudes remaining. That needs to be broken.

Again that’s you’re view and you’re entitled to it. But, as someone who works on the railway, rest assured isn’t only “militant” types who feel like this - many people are relatively indifferent to the union in normal times but strikebreaking is still generally viewed as beyond the pale.

That is a widespread attitude on the railway and I would note you’re therefore describing a large number of the colleagues and friends I like and respect as “dinosaurs” and “dubious characters”. I cannot agree with that when I personally know them to be anything but! I’m afraid that’s the kind of statement that really doesn’t do much to make staff feel welcome on here.

I’d also observe that throwing around terms like “dinosaur” and “dubious characters” doesn’t add any more to constructive debate than terms like “scab”.

Nothing that is said on here will change the practical reality of what I’ve said in terms of advice. If people can’t afford to take part in action where it’s voted for I’d urge them to speak to their reps and do anything possible to avoid strike breaking.

 

[DarloRich]

It certainly seems appropriate that RMT have called for talks with Ministers directly. I agree that this is the only kind of talking that's going to achieve a resolution now. I also agree with the line from Labour that it is a dereliction of duty on the part of the government that they've refused.

Agreed.

I suspect the government wants to be the organ grinder but have the monkey take the rap for the tune. I also think the RMT knew the government would say no on that basis.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can only apologise for not reading through this entire thread, so I hope this hasn't already been addressed.

I understand that in Japan (and possibly elsewhere), bus drivers go on 'strike' by working as normal but allowing free travel for all.

What is stopping rail workers in the UK publically announcing that rail travel across a given part of the network will have not have any kind of revenue enforcement, then running the service as normal but with all barriers open and no ticket checks? This would surely be a good way to get the public on the side of rail workers, whilst still putting pressure on TOCs and the government.

How it used to work was, you went on strike to cause disruption. The point was that the media would show queues for buses, empty desks, streets thronged of walkers in London, and so on. And, importantly, the upper middle class pen pusher types, who were office based and whom the government listens to all the time, got screwed. That increased political pressure on the government, the loss of productivity was costed, and government leant heavily on the TOC to resolve things.

 

[142blue]

First group have just announced £800M of profits. Here’s a breakdown across the TOC’s. No a single one has made a loss.View attachment 116239

No money for a pay rise though...

 

[Efini92]

No money for a pay rise though...

Exactly, they’ll have everyone believing there’s no money.

 

[baz962]

Intriguing, I wonder how legally something like this would work because you'd technically be using company assets and consumables whilst giving a service away in contravention of the principle of the company that is responsible for said assets

I wonder if giving away free travel and without permission, would possibly fall into the realms of theft.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if giving away free travel and without permission, would possibly fall into the realms of theft.

I don't think so because there's nothing to steal. Fare dodging isn't theft either.

It is however gross misconduct and could result in summary dismissal at the employer's sole option.

 

[yorksrob]

I can only apologise for not reading through this entire thread, so I hope this hasn't already been addressed.

I understand that in Japan (and possibly elsewhere), bus drivers go on 'strike' by working as normal but allowing free travel for all.

What is stopping rail workers in the UK publically announcing that rail travel across a given part of the network will have not have any kind of revenue enforcement, then running the service as normal but with all barriers open and no ticket checks? This would surely be a good way to get the public on the side of rail workers, whilst still putting pressure on TOCs and the government.

At a guess, this would be difficult because it requires full coordination between all station and on board staff, but that doesn't seem insurmountable in a scenario like the current one where so many grades are on strike anyway. Possibly monthly season ticket holders would be unhappy, but they're surely even less happy if there is no service at all.

It would certainly be beneficial if this type of action were made legal.

Unions could make their point to Government and management by driving down revenue as with a strike, without inconveniencing passengers who are by-standers.

I doubt there's much incentive for governments to allow this type of action as it would mean public support for industrial action.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2022 ==

It would be gross misconduct. The right to withdraw labour doesn't extend to wilfully doing your job badly.

Passengers might conclude that it would be doing the job far better than not doing it at all.

But then, who ever listened to passengers in this country !

 

[Watershed]

First group have just announced £800M of profits. Here’s a breakdown across the TOC’s. No a single one has made a loss.View attachment 116239

£683m of which was from the sale of the US operations. That'd be like saying "I made £250k last year" (when you happened to sell your house).

As the figures in the image show show, the profit on the UK 'franchises' is quite small, at around 2.5% of revenue. Of course they've not made a loss - as they have signed up to agreements with the DfT which guarantee a certain management fee, plus a conditional performance fee based on how well targets are met. They would have handed back the keys if such contracts hadn't been on offer.

Of course, it's always easier to point to "fatcat profits" (which are nowhere near the sorts of profits that Virgin and Stagecoach were achieving pre-pandemic, for example) than to accept that the government purse-strings are very tight at the moment...

 

[matacaster]

No money for a pay rise though...

Tocs made a profit, yes, but isn't it a management contract now ie they get paid a flat fee? They appear to lost £20m on open access operations though.

 

[Llanigraham]

I can only apologise for not reading through this entire thread, so I hope this hasn't already been addressed.

I understand that in Japan (and possibly elsewhere), bus drivers go on 'strike' by working as normal but allowing free travel for all.

What is stopping rail workers in the UK publically announcing that rail travel across a given part of the network will have not have any kind of revenue enforcement, then running the service as normal but with all barriers open and no ticket checks? This would surely be a good way to get the public on the side of rail workers, whilst still putting pressure on TOCs and the government.

At a guess, this would be difficult because it requires full coordination between all station and on board staff, but that doesn't seem insurmountable in a scenario like the current one where so many grades are on strike anyway. Possibly monthly season ticket holders would be unhappy, but they're surely even less happy if there is no service at all.

Considering that many NR staff have no direct relationship with the general travelling public, how do you expect them to do that?

 

[Starmill]

First group have just announced £800M of profits. Here’s a breakdown across the TOC’s. No a single one has made a loss.View attachment 116239

The bottom line figures in the slide you've quoted show net income at TransPennine Express of £8.9 million. So yes just as you say, First Group are making a profit from running the TransPennine Express contract. However the number of employees at the company is approximately 1500. So even if they paid 100% of the profits there to the employees (bearing in mind that they have investors who aren't necccesarily employees so they wouldn't ever achieve that) it's less than £6k per person. Not a particularly good result from the perspective of a First Group investor.

Now obviously you could disagree with the principle of First Group having investors to reward, and you'd be entitled to point that out. But that just replaces First Group with potentially more expensive management consultants hired on fixed fees by DfT.

 

[Efini92]

£683m of which was from the sale of the US operations. That'd be like saying "I made £250k last year" (when you happened to sell your house).

As the figures in the image show show, the profit on the UK 'franchises' is quite small, at around 2.5% of revenue. Of course they've not made a loss - as they have signed up to agreements with the DfT which guarantee a certain management fee, plus a conditional performance fee based on how well targets are met. They would have handed back the keys if such contracts hadn't been on offer.

Of course, it's always easier to point to "fatcat profits" (which are nowhere near the sorts of profits that Virgin and Stagecoach were achieving pre-pandemic, for example) than to accept that the government purse-strings are very tight at the moment...

Profit is profit. Might not be as much as pre pandemic but it’s still a profit and it’s not unreasonable to want a slice.

 

[fraser158]

Can't stand hearing Grant Shapps talking about workers salaries. MPs should make sure their own house is in order with regards to salaries before they moan about anyone else's.

 

[JonathanH]

Can't stand hearing Grant Shapps talking about workers salaries. MPs should make sure their own house is in order with regards to salaries before they moan about anyone else's.

Would you support a pay ceiling being introduced for all UK workers? Which roles would be exempt? What would the ceiling be? Setting it at MP's pay is about the 95th percentile.

 

[Signal_Box]

Well, the reason why you haven't been on strike is because you haven't needed to. You have been well paid and still are. You have good terms and conditions. You don't work outside. Nobody has been threatening your job. I would say it has been cushty. Now you demand a pay rise when you have had above inflation pay rises year on year. Perhaps just for a few years it is time to put something back into the system, you know, have a little of the pain that others are feeling in order for us all to get out of this s*** street we are in.

I mean you follow the words of the RMT boss who is earning £160k a year as iff he is some kind of God. And most of you probably voted for the government you are now at war with. I have never put myself in the position of voting for a government that would cause me grief, yet many of you do, and that is because in truth, you are not having to run to foodbanks.

So my friend, I don't want to fall out with you, because you make some good points. But a little humility can go a long way.

£23,800 we’ll paid ? Hmmm I think not.

 

[43066]

Of course, it's always easier to point to "fatcat profits" (which are nowhere near the sorts of profits that Virgin and Stagecoach were achieving pre-pandemic, for example) than to accept that the government purse-strings are very tight at the moment...

Remind us how ROSCO profits are looking?

 

[AlterEgo]

It would certainly be beneficial if this type of action were made legal.

Unions could make their point to Government and management by driving down revenue as with a strike, without inconveniencing passengers who are by-standers.

But the whole point of striking on the railways is to underscore its position as an essential service, and causing disruption to people who matter politically.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2022 ==

Would you support a pay ceiling being introduced for all UK workers? Which roles would be exempt? What would the ceiling be? Setting it at MP's pay is about the 95th percentile.

MPs aren't paid enough anyway, but that's for another thread.

 

[Watershed]

Remind us how ROSCO profits are looking?

Some (not all) are making very good profits - but they have no relationship with rail employees. So I struggle to see the relevance of the ROSCOs, unless you're suggesting they should make a 'charitable donation' to the RMT to distribute amongst its members?