East Coast Eureka clockface timetable May 2011

[ainsworth74]

To me if XC are stuggling with units perhaps the timetable should have cut back some services on the ECML which also carry a lot of fresh air.

Which services are these? I've used XC between Leeds, York, Darlington with the odd foray down to Doncaster and Sheffield, I have to say I can only think of once maybe twice where I would consider the train to be empty out of dozens of journeys.

 

[me123]

That is an interesting point, I wonder if what was offered was an hourly Glasgow Central - North Berwick service what the reaction would be like. Would hourly to Edinburgh be more important to someone from Motherwell than every other hour to Newcastle and beyond?

Do many people travel from Motherwell - Kings Cross.

I reckon that there will be quite a few people going from Motherwell-King's Cross (given that Virgin obviously don't want to stop there either!), and they will definitely be some of the biggest "losers" in this timetable change.

I think, though, an hourly Glasgow-Edinburgh(-North Berwick) via Motherwell would be seen as an improvement; yes you'd be losing direct services, but you'd be gaining many more via a simple change. The biggest loss would be Newcastle (but integrating it into a Glasgow-Newcastle via Motherwell local service would be my preferred option )

 

[Failed Unit]

Which services are these? I've used XC between Leeds, York, Darlington with the odd foray down to Doncaster and Sheffield, I have to say I can only think of once maybe twice where I would consider the train to be empty out of dozens of journeys.

Most of them out of Edinburgh to be honest, take the 1705 in the peak it is really carrying commutors to Dunbar and Berwick. This demand could be taken by East Coast on the London - Edinburgh "slow" service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I reckon that there will be quite a few people going from Motherwell-King's Cross (given that Virgin obviously don't want to stop there either!), and they will definitely be some of the biggest "losers" in this timetable change.

I think, though, an hourly Glasgow-Edinburgh(-North Berwick) via Motherwell would be seen as an improvement; yes you'd be losing direct services, but you'd be gaining many more via a simple change. The biggest loss would be Newcastle (but integrating it into a Glasgow-Newcastle via Motherwell local service would be my preferred option )

Shame the infrastructure can't take it, but you are right a service calling Dunbar, Berwick, Alnmouth, Morpeth and Cramlington would be lovely. (could even cover places like Cramlington) Just not enough good loops to let the fasts go by!

 

[ainsworth74]

Most of them out of Edinburgh to be honest, take the 1705 in the peak it is really carrying commutors to Dunbar and Berwick.

If that is the case then you could cut back the services as Newcastle, but to do so further south where there is strong demand would simply make the overcrowding worse than it already is.

 

[142094]

I would probably terminate all XC services at Newcastle - everything else can go EC. Would be a qucik turnaround and more services through the core.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would probably terminate all XC services at Newcastle - everything else can go EC. Would be a qucik turnaround and more services through the core.

Do a loop around Central to speed things up a little

I know Newcastle has a healthy demand to Birmingham and the route via Doncaster was good time wise. Edinburgh at the moment XC only exists to serve smaller stations and raid ORCATs.

Many people change at York for Edinburgh - Leeds so they can use wi-fi, mobile phones and have a decent catering (you are on the train for 2h30 so it is worth it when it is cheaper as well)

Likewise Edinburgh - Sheffield is much quicker by changing at Doncaster, I know you risk a pacer on the Doncaster - Sheffield bit but you save a lot of time and you are on a better train for the majority of the route.

Birmingham you would use Virgin anyway, so that only leaves Derby and Chesterfield that would be worse off if the hourly direct trains were removed.

That said direct services are invaluable for many people and although many now do travel via London for cheaper deals, there are many people that would not travel if they needed to change so it has a use. Maybe every other hour rather than every hour! The Leeds diversion is very controversial. Newcastle people will probably not be impressed about the loss of speed!

 

[YorkshireRider]

I would probably terminate all XC services at Newcastle - everything else can go EC. Would be a qucik turnaround and more services through the core.

Would agree with you with the exception of Fridays and Sundays, Anglo scot loadings are very heavy on these days

 

[Failed Unit]

Would agree with you with the exception of Fridays and Sundays, Anglo scot loadings are very heavy on these days

I guess the perfect solution would be to terminate the majority of XC services at Newcastle and then have the EMU operated Newcastle - Edinburgh - Glasgow service to provide local services. Even if XC stayed running it wouldn't really help relieve the loading on east coasts Anglo-Scottish services. XC are typically more expensive for a start and not many people would choose XC over east coast because of the quality of service.

I often use the 1130 Edinburgh - Kings Cross, but are the 1100 and 1200 also very heavily loaded on Fridays (when they get caught up with by the HSTs?)

 

[MCR247]

Ideally for me, some more 380s would be ordered, and would be run by SR and NT, and there would be an hourly stopper from Newcastle - Edinburgh, replacing the EDB - Dunbar and NCL - Morpeth trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

Now they have diverted the Newcastle via Doncaster services on Alternate hours via Leeds maybe they should have capped it at Leeds.

They haven't done that yet though. That is still only a future proposal.

They do have a current track access application in, but it is only to continue running the 1506 off Newcastle via Leeds, which was only previously allowed for the current timetable period.

 

[NXEA!]

Ideally for me, some more 380s would be ordered, and would be run by SR and NT, and there would be an hourly stopper from Newcastle - Edinburgh, replacing the EDB - Dunbar and NCL - Morpeth trains.

That's a good idea. Just out of interest, taking hourly as the basic frequency, how many sets would it take? Because the GARL is not going ahead, this renders 380020-022 spare effectively. It could be a good way for these to be used, and it saves Scotrail and Northern a couple of DMU's each.

 

[Failed Unit]

They haven't done that yet though. That is still only a future proposal.

They do have a current track access application in, but it is only to continue running the 1506 off Newcastle via Leeds, which was only previously allowed for the current timetable period.

I know we won't know until Eureka is publish, but the drafts showed the diversion of alternate Doncaster services via Leeds, but maybe stakeholders objected so the status quo remains with the majority via Doncaster!

 

[swt_passenger]

I know we won't know until Eureka is publish, but the drafts showed the diversion of alternate Doncaster services via Leeds, but maybe stakeholders objected so the status quo remains with the majority via Doncaster!

Yes, that's basically what I'm assuming, because if the change was being made, the current application would probably be listing a whole load of services.

Incidentally there are track access applications from EMT and ECMLCo on the usual websites - the ECML one includes all the calling patterns and destinations etc in a new 'Schedule 5', unfortunately it just hasn't got anything like a recognisable timetable - and it doesn't include the northbound Harrogate service. Nevertheless there is still a lot of info there:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/2%20completed%20consultations/2010.12.10%20east%20coast%2029th%20sa%20-%20consultation%20closed%2024%20december%202010/east%20coast%20schedule%205.pdf

 

[Damien1986]

The new XC services from Glasgow won't be to Poole or London Paddington

I understand what you are saying but you didn't get the gist of what I was saying and that is there will now be more frequent Crosscountry services!

 

[Failed Unit]

I understand what you are saying but you didn't get the gist of what I was saying and that is there will now be more frequent Crosscountry services!

Correct, but i think the total number of trains on that section remains exactly the same so most people will feel worse off because the quality of service offered has declined so badly. Yes a full 225 set is not needed (except for the 0650 which is staying anyway) but people travelling from Glasgow - Newcastle / York will feel a voyager is a poor replacement for the 91s. But in terms of the number of direct trains between Glasgow and York this will remain exactly the same.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes, that's basically what I'm assuming, because if the change was being made, the current application would probably be listing a whole load of services.

Incidentally there are track access applications from EMT and ECMLCo on the usual websites - the ECML one includes all the calling patterns and destinations etc in a new 'Schedule 5', unfortunately it just hasn't got anything like a recognisable timetable - and it doesn't include the northbound Harrogate service. Nevertheless there is still a lot of info there:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/2%20completed%20consultations/2010.12.10%20east%20coast%2029th%20sa%20-%20consultation%20closed%2024%20december%202010/east%20coast%20schedule%205.pdf

Interesting - suggests weekend service to Bradford and Skipton (and that there will *be* an evening peak Bradford service).

Mind you it also suggests the Skipton service will call at Shipley northbound which seems unlikely.

 

[tbtc]

Ideally for me, some more 380s would be ordered, and would be run by SR and NT, and there would be an hourly stopper from Newcastle - Edinburgh, replacing the EDB - Dunbar and NCL - Morpeth trains.

Trouble is that this would mean the end of the link from Morpeth/Cramlington to the Metro Centre which is popular on some trips

 

[me123]

... nothing to stop you running it to Metro Centre, except for a few miles of electrification. Or, alternatively, have a half hourly service to Morpeth with 1tph (which could remain a diesel) going on to Metro Cente if that's possible within the constraints of the timetable.

 

[tbtc]

Likewise Edinburgh - Sheffield is much quicker by changing at Doncaster, I know you risk a pacer on the Doncaster - Sheffield bit but you save a lot of time and you are on a better train for the majority of the route

Its much quicker *if* the East Cost service stops at Doncaster, which most of the Edinburgh ones don't. If all East Coast services stopped at Donny then that'd make things a lot easier, and improve the connections for places further south (if Edinburgh trains are being sped up through Newark/Grantham etc).

Logically one XC service north of York would be sufficient *if* the East Coast services fitted in around.

What would be nice would be if XC ran a bi-hourly extension north of York to Hartlepool/Sunderland, thus giving an hourly service when combined with the GC service, which would be useful. However you'd then get GC complaining about it being an ORCATs raid (which wouldn't be ironic...)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... nothing to stop you running it to Metro Centre, except for a few miles of electrification

Its a short stretch to wire up, and would allow the current service to move to EMU operation, but it's not on the agenda AFAIK. Shame.

 

[MCR247]

Probably because most units continue to Carlisle/Hexham?

 

[tbtc]

Probably because most units continue to Carlisle/Hexham?

The Carlisle service is generally self-contained (a handful of services extend to the Cumbrian coast/ Dumfries etc)

The Hexham services are generally Nunthorpe/Middlesbrough - Hexham

As far as I can see the Morpeth - Metro Centre service provides the stock for the Metro Centre - Newcastle "shorts"

So wiring a couple of miles from Newcastle to the Metro Centre would free up two DMUs - a tiny section in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Failed Unit]

A lot of East coast services currently stop at Doncaster. In the new timetable one ever other hour will.

Current southbound
0700, 0800, 0900, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1600, 1700 & 1730 southbound. 9 services stop 7 don't.
Current northbound.
0615, 0900, 1300, 1330, 1400, 1530, 1600, 1800
8 stop 8 don't so not bad (apart from big gaps in the morning)

 

[tbtc]

A lot of East coast services currently stop at Doncaster. In the new timetable one ever other hour will.

Current southbound
0700, 0800, 0900, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1600, 1700 & 1730 southbound. 9 services stop 7 don't.
Current northbound.
0615, 0900, 1300, 1330, 1400, 1530, 1600, 1800
8 stop 8 don't so not bad (apart from big gaps in the morning)

Strangely its a lot better on a Sunday afternoon.

A three hour gap southbound and a four hour gap northbound aren't ideal (as well as a few other two-hour gaps).

If it was clockface hourly (or half hourly) then you'd not need all the XC links. I appreciate that East Coast want to speed up their services, but Doncaster/Peterborough are big interchanges yet York is the only one they want to stop at.

 

[Failed Unit]

Strangely its a lot better on a Sunday afternoon.

A three hour gap southbound and a four hour gap northbound aren't ideal (as well as a few other two-hour gaps).

If it was clockface hourly (or half hourly) then you'd not need all the XC links. I appreciate that East Coast want to speed up their services, but Doncaster/Peterborough are big interchanges yet York is the only one they want to stop at.

I know the reason is not enough sets, but hopefully should the IEP ever take off we will be able to extend all the Newcastle terminators to Edinburgh. Don't know how many sets that will take, but once the IEP is approved demand will have increase.

So you have
0000 London, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh
0030 London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Alnmouth, Edinburgh (as proposed)
0100 As 0000
0130 London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Dunbar, Edinburgh,

In my perfect work I wouldn't bother with Northallerton and leave it to Grand Central, the Newcastle passengers can use TPE without too much time penalty.

Or after the olimpics when South Eastern realise they are never going to fill all the 395s they can start doing the London - York stoppers Give us the Lincoln services and maybe even have enough to do the Edinburgh half hourly!

 

[swt_passenger]

I know the reason is not enough sets, but hopefully should the IEP ever take off we will be able to extend all the Newcastle terminators to Edinburgh. Don't know how many sets that will take, but once the IEP is approved demand will have increase.

2 tph to Edinburgh seems to be the recommended conclusion of NR's 2016 capacity review, which discussed a fairly large number of options.

Needless to say the Edinburgh - Newcastle inter-regional service (regularly proposed here) has just about the worst financial case of all the many additional service aspirations. Which confirmed what the ECML RUS already decided.

 

[Anvil1984]

In my perfect work I wouldn't bother with Northallerton and leave it to Grand Central, the Newcastle passengers can use TPE without too much time penalty.
!

But as previously stated TPE do not serve Newcastle Durham and Darlington sufficiently in the evening peak, this idea that TPE has an hourly Newcastle service is incorrect

 

[Failed Unit]

But as previously stated TPE do not serve Newcastle Durham and Darlington sufficiently in the evening peak, this idea that TPE has an hourly Newcastle service is incorrect

East Coast dont serve Northallerton either Southbound. Northallerton has the TPE Middlesbrough services.

Was speaking to some staff at east coast. They dont seem to impressed at the moment say a lot can change between now and May and hope it will. I guess when you need to do more diagrams with the same workforce you probably need to work people harder. :-/. I hope morale doesn't go back to national express standards.

 

[Ticketsplease]

East Coast dont serve Northallerton either Southbound. Northallerton has the TPE Middlesbrough services.

Was speaking to some staff at east coast. They dont seem to impressed at the moment say a lot can change between now and May and hope it will. I guess when you need to do more diagrams with the same workforce you probably need to work people harder. :-/. I hope morale doesn't go back to national express standards.

As an East Coast employee based in Glasgow I can confirm the above. Moral in the company is getting to an all time low. Company now considering getting ride of 100 staff from the on-board catering and station/booking office side. Allegedly to pay for the new 1st class offer (free food and drink).
It would appear that with the closure of the Glasgow depot all staff who wish to transfer to Edinburgh will have a job, with no compulsory redundancies as of yet.

Can anyone tell me where I can get sight of the complete proposed May 2011 timetable for the East Coast including the additional "proposed" XC services through to Glasgow. Is their also talk of ScotRail running trains from Glasgow Central via Motherwell to Berwick upon Tweed?

 

[me123]

So you have
0000 London, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh
0030 London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Alnmouth, Edinburgh (as proposed)
0100 As 0000
0130 London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Dunbar, Edinburgh,

A very unusual proposal. Why does the 00:30 not call at Newcastle? Seems like a sensible place to make a call. You've managed to avoid serving Morpeth, yet Alnmouth has 2tph. Might I suggest adding a Newcastle stop to the 00:30 and a Morpeth stop to the 01:30? Leaving XC to run services stopping at all (appropriate) stations between Edinburgh and Newcastle at various points during the day.

xx:00 London, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh (as above)
xx:30 London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Alnmouth, Edinburgh (as above, adding a NCL stop)
xy:00 London, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh (as above)
xy:30 London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Dunbar, Edinburgh

I'd extend 2tph to the North if at all possible, to Inverness and Dundee/Aberdeen. When the wires start to go up, I'd like to see whether it would be possible to terminate some at Stirling (although I think this is more of a pipe dream from my point of view!)

 

[swt_passenger]

Can anyone tell me where I can get sight of the complete proposed May 2011 timetable for the East Coast including the additional "proposed" XC services through to Glasgow.

If you can't get hold of the details working for ECML, probably not. We've discussed ealier in the thread that ORR made a decision not to drip feed timetable details to the public. The XC timings (from their track access application) were posted earlier though, by me in post #115.

Is their also talk of ScotRail running trains from Glasgow Central via Motherwell to Berwick upon Tweed?

Only in rail forums AFAICT...