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Rail strikes discussion

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Gems

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It seems some posters didn't live through the dark days of the 80s recessions. A few facts that are painful, but facts non the same.
You cannot get out of a recession and stimulate growth without increasing productivity.
You cannot get out of a recession by chasing inflation by demanding inflationary pay rises. (This leads to stagflation)
You cannot get out of a recession by printing money. (Mr BoE governor take note)

The pain is here, best get a liking for it.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Nope. All spin. Too many people have been underpaid for far too long.

EDIT: New thread to continue this line of discussion: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-the-solution-to-the-issue-of-low-pay.233190/

Because wages do not form the full cost of providing a product or service, giving everyone a 10% pay rise doesn't cause 10% inflation. It does however cause some inflation, so realigning wages would come with some pain.

That's why I think a better way to fix it is to make life more affordable, and the highest single cost to most people is housing, often taking as much as half of income, but certainly around a third for most people. So fix housing by building to rent for life, not for profit.

It might actually be worth using quantitative easing to "print" the money to do this. Building houses of the kind needed (a modern equivalent of the vast swathes of Victorian terraces, plus quality European style flats) is pretty cheap and easily arranged. I'm pro-HS2 so don't take this the wrong way, but you could build a lot of houses for the cost of HS2. A quick Google suggests HS2 is costing £96bn (might have gone up since then, but let's use that). Building a house of that kind costs about £150K or so including land, maybe £100K for a flat, and there are ways to bring that down. So for our £96,000,000,000 we could build 640,000 houses. If we work on families of 4 (the average is slightly lower but it makes the maths easier) that's able to accommodate 2,560,000 people. That's not anywhere near the full population of about 70M, but it's a lot, and many want to buy anyway. So it'd make a huge difference.

And if we can afford HS2 (and we clearly can), we can afford the likes of that.
 
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Iskra

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I disagree. But more importantly, are you in favour of low-wage imported labour?



I don't think you understand how quotes can be used to alter meaning of a phrase. It doesn't purely mean someone said it.
I’m in favour of people in other countries moving freely to where their skills are needed to seek better opportunities, pay and conditions.
 

320320

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This says a lot about you that you think such attitudes are acceptable.

We only have your word for it that this happened; how many people are you talking about exactly?

Says someone who is hardly working for the good of the passengers or the wider industry.
.

Is this the reason you left your union?

Were you a strike breaker and left with no option but to resign?
 

LordSarnoc

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I have a question. Every time someone says the strikes are only about pay, a rail worker will claim that it's about more than pay, yet will never elaborate further. So from my (and several other's) point of view, you're standing next to the body with a bloody knife and sadistic smile on your face, saying 'it wasn't me guv'. So can someone who voted for strike action please tell us what more this is about?
As others have said, I think you’d get a different answer depending on the person.

I’m not sure even the NR staff have aligned reasons: my understanding is that maintenance are largely striking over potential changes to working practices + many have been denied the opportunity to join the “industry wide” Voluntary Severance Scheme + lack of pay increases.

Not sure about operations, I think that’s largely pay but I don’t really get much insight into that.

TSSA staff, if they vote to strike, will be entirely about pay and bonuses.

Certainly I have a lot of sympathy for the maintenance side of the business. I think they’ve been quite badly treated and reckon the VSS is being withheld because Senior Management want to pension older members off on ill health grounds and thereby save money. That’s my perception - maybe I’m overly sceptical.
 

Gems

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Low wage imported labour is a myth. People came to the UK to work because the pay and conditions were better, not as slaves. A strong pound meant their pounds earned transferred into more Euros. When the pound value dropped due to the Brexit vote, their wages meant less Euros, so off they went.
Economic damage is caused by many things, but a weak pound is devastating.
 

windingroad

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It is disappointing that you support those who seek to harm the industry, but it is your right to do so!
This is completely disingenuous and you know it.

Nobody is choosing to strike because they "seek to harm the industry" and if the strike does so, this is a secondary effect. Why can't you express your position without attributing malice where none exists, and casting aspersions on people whose motivations you refuse to understand?

You frequently admonish others for not engaging in "constructive" dialogue and then throw out this stuff like confetti!
 

yorkie

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This is completely disingenuous and you know it.

Nobody is choosing to strike because they "seek to harm the industry" and if the strike does so, this is a secondary effect. Why can't you express your position without attributing malice where none exists, and casting aspersions on people whose motivations you refuse to understand?
Of course it is a secondary effect! I don't think anyone has said otherwise?
You frequently admonish others for not engaging in "constructive" dialogue and then throw out this stuff like confetti!
You are entitled to that opinion but I think you are misguided and mistaken.

Nope. All spin. Too many people have been underpaid for far too long.
What do you think would happen if everyone was paid more?

Also, what's stopping you applying for a better paid job?
 

Iskra

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Low wage imported labour is a myth. People came to the UK to work because the pay and conditions were better, not as slaves. A strong pound meant their pounds earned transferred into more Euros. When the pound value dropped due to the Brexit vote, their wages meant less Euros, so off they went.
Economic damage is caused by many things, but a weak pound is devastating.
Hallelujah
 

Gems

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Is this the reason you left your union?

Were you a strike breaker and left with no option but to resign?
I left the RMT because it was led at the time by di**heads. It's not always the man at the top who is the di**head either, some of the regional reps are clearly a brick short of a full hod. I actually like Mick Lynch. I saw his interview someone posted and he came across as astute. The same can't be said of some of the reps.
If you don't like something or the way something is run, there is a answer. Leave.
 

Starmill

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The ROSCOs are entitled to make a profit, you know.
Of course they are. It's purely that the government has chosen to keep on giving them lease contracts which allow them to earn some very nice yields. I think it's that which we should be focusing on not doing.
 

Iskra

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Of course they are. It's purely that the government has chosen to keep on giving them lease contracts which allow them to earn some very nice yields. I think it's that which we should be focusing on not doing.
Thankfully, I think this is generally realised now. It’s an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy and needless profiteering driving prices up for rail users and increasing the need for taxpayer subsidy.
 

ar10642

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The loss of "slave labour" due to Brexit.

The fix is "pay more and offer better conditions".

The end to imported "slave labour" is, without doubt, a good outcome of Brexit (there aren't many, but this is one). It is time everyone was paid a wage they can live off. Hospitality is, in this regard, in a far worse position than most of rail.

I mean maybe that's part of it but it's skilled jobs too.
 

windingroad

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Of course it is a secondary effect! I don't think anyone has said otherwise?
Yes, they have: you, to be specific. You said:
It is disappointing that you support those who seek to harm the industry, but it is your right to do so!
If the harm is a possible secondary effect, as you admit, then it is inaccurate at best, and disingenuous at worst, to suggest that the harm is the point, as you do above. What you are trying to do, quite deliberately, is misrepresent the strikes and those who support them. You appear to view solidarity as a moral failing, which tells me you've become deeply entrenched in an ideological bunker.

What strikers seek is to maintain a good quality pay and conditions package now and in the future. How else do you suggest they do, other than withdrawing their labour, given it is clear the government intends to have a fight about this and the alternative is capitulation?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also, what's stopping you applying for a better paid job?
This is a facile point. There are a finite number of better paid jobs, so your advice is completely unworkable at scale. The solution is to advocate for all workers to be paid a fair wage, which is precisely the function of unions.
 
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yorkie

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Yes, they have: you, to be specific. You said:

If the harm is a possible secondary effect, as you admit, then it is inaccurate at best, and disingenuous at worst, to suggest that the harm is the point, as you do above.
What do you think the point of a strike is?

What you are trying to do, quite deliberately, is misrepresent the strikes and those who support them.
You can think anything you want.

You appear to view solidarity as a moral failing, which tells me you've become deeply entrenched in an ideological bunker.
And you have the cheek to say it is me who is misrepresenting!

It's not that solidarity is a moral failing per se, but whatever wording you want to use does not negate the fact that if you choose not to come into work, you can have no complaints if someone else does the work.

What strikers seek is to maintain a good quality pay and conditions package now and in the future.
Through causing disruption.

How else do you suggest they do, other than withdrawing their labour, given it is clear the government intends to have a fight about this and the alternative is capitulation?
If they are allowed to win by causing disruption it will encourage such behaviour even more. Therefore it is vital that they are not successful.

This is a facile point. There are a finite number of better paid jobs, so your advice is completely unworkable at scale.
There are plenty of jobs available on the market at the moment; are you really saying there are loads of people who are unable to do any job other than what they are currently doing?

The solution is to advocate for all workers to be paid better, which is precisely the function of unions.
You reallly think that simply paying everyone more is the solution and the problems go away?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

You do realise that if everyone gets a payrise, that nobody really gains because it would just cause inflation?
I don't think they do, and they certainly won't listen to us.
 

ExRes

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Low wage imported labour is a myth. People came to the UK to work because the pay and conditions were better, not as slaves. A strong pound meant their pounds earned transferred into more Euros. When the pound value dropped due to the Brexit vote, their wages meant less Euros, so off they went.
Economic damage is caused by many things, but a weak pound is devastating.

Wrong, when St Pancras was being rebuilt we spoke regularly with the Poles that were being employed, to a person they said that their wages were considerably lower than their UK counterparts but much higher than they would receive back home and that was 10 years before the Brexit vote that people love to use as an excuse for everything under the sun, they were used in the UK because they were cheap labour
 

yorkie

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Wrong, when St Pancras was being rebuilt we spoke regularly with the Poles that were being employed, to a person they said that their wages were considerably lower than their UK counterparts but much higher than they would receive back home and that was 10 years before the Brexit vote that people love to use as an excuse for everything under the sun, they were used in the UK because they were cheap labour
How much were they paid and how much were workers from the UK paid? What role was this? I know someone who was involved in the project so I will ask if he can check this out...
 

Kite159

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You do realise that if everyone gets a payrise, that nobody really gains because it would just cause inflation?
Agreed, increase minimum wage to £15 an hour like some in Labour/unions are suggesting will only mean prices will also be hiked due to the rise of labour costs (and will cause job losses as some places cut back on the number of staff employed and make those who remain work harder. Or places will invest more in automation [I.e more self service points in *fast food restaurant*]
 

43066

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Who is being done out of a job?

If I go and break a strike, I am undermining someone else’s ability to withdraw their labour. If I do so as part of my job that’s one thing, to volunteer to do so to enrich myself is quite another. I personally see that as utterly low.

The last time I went on strike (which I will never do again) there may well have been some tasks that someone else had to do; I could hardly complain at that

Why would you *never* go on strike again? You appear to view striking as some kind of moral failure which I find perplexing. I completely get that you didn’t like the attitude of your union towards Covid - I’d say exactly the same about the railway unions - but that’s a totally separate issue. I get the distinct impression that your view of unions has been poisoned by your dislike of their attitude over Covid, to the point where you have perhaps lost the ability to look at them objectivity.

I am not sure who you are suggesting does, or what the relevance would be if they do.

That was a reference to the fact there’s a bit of a divide between staff and enthusiasts - some of us on here are both!

If inflation continues at such a rate, then obviously wages are going to rise somewhat; that would happen naturally regardless of strikes; it's not the case that when inflation is high the only people who see wage increases are those who (threaten to) strike, if that's what is being suggested.

Wages don’t magically rise on their own. Many public sector workers have seen a substantial decline in their real terms pay over the past ten years.

A bit more parity between rail jobs and [other] public sector jobs would be good, but let's be realistic; there is little to no chance of that happening!

You’ll note the rail unions are absolutely not arguing against this. But clearly they are there to represent railway staff. The railway (at least TOCs) have only been classified as “public sector” recently.

So his opinion is invalid because of his age? That’s a slippery slope.

No, I didn’t mean to imply that at all (and apologies if that’s how it came across). I meant more It’s impossible to understand how visceral all of this is unless you’ve worked in a unionised industry and it affects people you know.

I’ve done contingency roles before in the past to help “keep the job running” and I would do it again. But I wouldn’t go around boasting about it, I’d just quietly get on with things in a professional manner.

I have no issue with staff doing so as part of their job, as I say. I personally wouldn’t ever feel particularly comfortable with doing someone else’s job when they have withdrawn their labour in an industrial dispute.

I’m absolutely dreading the next few months because the atmosphere is becoming utterly poisonous and rapidly getting worse.

Do note the quotes. They are quite deliberate.

I find the level of "champagne socialism" in the Remain camp (despite being a member of it myself) quite astounding. "It's OK for me to be paid well and enjoy freedom of movement, but I should be able to have a meal at a rock bottom price served by an immigrant waiter who is paid a pittance and shares a bed so they can afford to live". No. Everyone in the UK should be paid enough (or the benefits system should adjust things for them) to maintain a basic quality of living.

Precisely.

We have become far too used to paying too little for labour intensive work in this country, as a direct result of freedom of movement distorting the labour market. It’s amazing how often this point is missed by middle class remainer types, because it doesn’t tend to affect their ability to earn a living (or that of anyone in their social circle). Ask tradesmen and semi skilled workers who have been undercut and you’ll get a very different view.
 
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Goldfish62

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Wrong, when St Pancras was being rebuilt we spoke regularly with the Poles that were being employed, to a person they said that their wages were considerably lower than their UK counterparts but much higher than they would receive back home and that was 10 years before the Brexit vote that people love to use as an excuse for everything under the sun, they were used in the UK because they were cheap labour
Paying someone less due to their nationality is illegal in the UK. Sorry, I'm rather sceptical of the claims made to you.
 

ChrisC

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and once people have adapted to managing without trains, they won't necessarily all flock back to the railway after the strike is over. How many coal miners are left working in UK?
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the strike action this is what really concerns me. Many rail routes in some parts of the country, especially in the East Midlands and the North are still running to reduced timetables, or in some cases suspended altogether, following Covid. Passenger numbers are beginning to rise again but if any prolonged strike action results in reduced passenger numbers, I fear that the supposedly temporary reduced timetables will become permanent. There still does not even seem too much hope of these missing trains returning in December so any reduction in passenger numbers will not help the case for reinstating them. I want to try to use my local line and support the rail service, but having tolerated hour long waits for connections whenever I travel anywhere during this past year, even I as a rail enthusiast, have already had enough of the inconvenience and using my car and the bus car more often.

I live in an ex mining area and many of my neighbours and my grandparents and just about all of my uncles were miners so I am very aware of what happened to the mining industry. I know that was a very different situation but I still want the railways to expand and not contract.
 

wobman

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Paying someone less due to their nationality is illegal in the UK. Sorry, I'm rather sceptical of the claims made to you.
Isn't that what P&O have just done, outsourced the work to a business based abroad but they work in the UK.
It happens as there's loopholes to enable this, that's one good reason for unions.
 

michael74

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When I joined the railway less than 2 months ago, I knew strike action was brewing, I came into this with my eyes wide open. However the impact now is, my training has been extended by 2 weeks (I am on a training wage) and I will also loose nearly £150 for the 2 days I will not be attending work, I really really can't afford either. I know that my employer and others in this forum has said we must be kind, respect the wishes of those who choose not to strike, but when you see the vitriolic language of the last century used on here (scabs, strike breakers etc) and I know in my mess there are will be people who feel the same way... it makes for an uncomfortable situation.

I am old enough to remember the Miners Strike and others of the 70s and 80s, I have also spent the last 15 years as an NHS Nurse and having years of no pay rises and not being paid for overtime, not being paid for breaks and guilted into working unsafe hours (no Hidden rules in the NHS), so dont lecture me on the history, politics and ethics of Unions and strike action (by the way I believe in the Union movement, but I don't agree with the RMT in setting dates before having a meaningful discussion with individual employers).

But what I find utterly distasteful is that I am being being bullied into this by that vocal minority who don't want to be kind to those (minority of members) who are just not in the same situation personally as they.
 

windingroad

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There are plenty of jobs available on the market at the moment; are you really saying there are loads of people who are unable to do any job other than what they are currently doing?
My point isn't that there are no other jobs; it's that better paid jobs are finite, and your advice was to find a better paid job. If all underpaid workers found better paid jobs (which isn't possible, as not enough roles exist, but nevertheless) who would be left to fill the roles they left behind? It doesn't make sense as a solution if applied on a wider scale.
You reallly think that simply paying everyone more is the solution and the problems go away?
I edited my post prior to your response (to say "a fair wage") for this reason. My position is that railway workers on the whole tend to be paid a fairer wage, in large part thanks to the unions, and it is important they maintain this and don't facilitate backsliding. The difference between the highest paid in society and the lowest paid in society should be less than it is today, and that is what I mean by "fair". However I don't imagine you would support any such rebalancing.
 

Bletchleyite

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A £15 minimum wage, if you assume an 8 hour day, 5 day week and 4 weeks' annual leave, is an annual salary of £28,800. For now that probably is a bit high for entry level roles at least.

£11-12, giving a salary of between £21-23K ish, is probably achievable and sensible, though, and it should increase automatically by RPI each year.
 
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