Rail strikes discussion

[DaventryRabbit]

It is without doubt that I have sympathy with those who, like yourself, work in the rail industry. I'm extremely concerned however, that if there is a protracted summer of disruption, I won't be the only one to not return afterwards. Many have said to me, once you've got a car, you'll seldom use public transport again.

I do honestly feel for rail staff, my overriding concern is if people like me who have a love for the railways and spend a significant amount of income using them - and have stood by the network through all sorts of stuff, are actively looking at alternatives, I can only fear for what the future holds. I hope I'm being over the top, but if passenger numbers don't recover, the cutting axe could well be swung.

My fears exactly. It will only take, say, maybe 4 or so seperate weeks of disruption/No service before the DFT Look at the tumbling revenue and decide that it has become untenable. I really fear what the December 22 and more particularly May 23 Timetables may look like.
You only need to look at or remember 40 Years or so after the damaging Strikes then to see what service levels we could be sleep walking into. Remember Brian Serpell and his infamous plan? (Younger people: Google now!)
I fear that the stations which currently have no service (Gainsborough- Barnetby, Doncaster- Scunthorpe etc) may have already seen their last train....

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But you will still treat them differently as a result. We used to have this approach in our union, until we realised that positive discrimination in the workplace as a result of strike breaking was playing right into management hands. These days unions, reps and the members have to box a bit more clever than resort to the old tradition of playground politics.

But as I've said to others, just sit back and watch because this approach is exactly what the government wants.

If someone went against you generally in life and did something you fundamentally disagreed with would you treat that person different? Of course you would! Now as others have said some will give verbal abuse some will make it there career to try and make that persons life difficult. I won't...they just won't exist.

 

[Gems]

Unions and colleagues provide support. Solidarity is strength. If people are severely struggling colleagues and the union will do our best to help as what was offered to the one person who broke the strike over the DOO Strikes. That person was offered extra hours and swaps by colleagues and management to not come in. He chose to come in and now to put it bluntly people see that person as a Pariah. Now as I have said I will not go name calling or abuse but Strike Breaking In my humble opinion is a morally bankrupt act.

In what area was the help forthcoming? I know the RMT issued a few cheques for £150. That was very welcome indeed. I cannot comment on what the Manchester roster looked like either, but here, picking up rest days, well, there was never enough to go round. I have met a few pariahs in my time, and I agree with posters on here that it is very low doing the job of a striker for more money. That is low indeed. But I don't really think I have time for anyone who calls others out for keeping a roof over their and their families heads.

 

[michael74]

If someone went against you generally in life and did something you fundamentally disagreed with would you treat that person different? Of course you would! Now as others have said some will give verbal abuse some will make it there career to try and make that persons life difficult. I won't...they just won't exist.

Christ almighty you best not get a job anywhere else, especially in the NHS you will spend your days not talking to anyone at all.... the world really isn't that black and white.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

In what area was the help forthcoming? I know the RMT issued a few cheques for £150. That was very welcome indeed. I cannot comment on what the Manchester roster looked like either, but here, picking up rest days, well, there was never enough to go round. I have met a few pariahs in my time, and I agree with posters on here that it is very low doing the job of a striker for more money. That is low indeed. But I don't really think have time for anyone who calls others out for keeping a roof over their and their families heads.

Management (Yes Management) offered Sundays, The Traincrew at that depot raised money and all sorts for that individual. He wouldn't accept it and still came in. Now 4 years later no one still speaks to that person. Grievances have been put in because no one speaks to that person (all been thrown out because not acknowledging someone or not speaking to them is not against any rules. Yes in some peoples minds people will think its childish but Traincrew have always been proud to watch each others back, when someone goes against that people do not forget rightly or wrongly.

 

[Starmill]

The problem is vast amounts of our economy are leveraged to low paid work because we have ended up with too much reliance on services. So if you bump up min wage (and it should be higher AFAIC) it feeds through quickly in the services arena. ie McDonalds are already on slim margins so £1 on min wage would have to be recovered through pricing of their products (yes they play around with offers but only to drive max income). Also low paid are nearly 20% of the workforce.

Yes, but inflation in the prices of McDonald's meals and pints in pubs is something which we can all live with. General commodity price rises are a bit of more concerning.

 

[the sniper]

The fact remains that the rail industry generally pays better than many others, on average. If any industry/employer falls behind in terms of its offering, it will struggle to retain and recruit staff. It's not the case that strikes (or other militant action) are required to gain pay increases.

So no pay rises on the railway until wages fall below a national average, so people have to leave having had their standard of living decimated over a period of time, which could be relatively short given likely inflation? And even then you wouldn't support industrial action. The situation would just have to resolve itself 'naturally'. It's fairly inevitable that the 'natural' solution will be too little, too late, as at that point the railway will be in disarray.

We've seen what the 'natural' solution means in this country, that's why so many working people are struggling financially! But they can just apply for better paid job, if they can find one...

On one hand you'd argue the wrongs of financially burdening a worker by asking them to strike with their colleagues, as it suits your ideology, while you'd gladly commit the majority of railway workers to a large and sustained real terms loss of pay and standard of living.

 

[Bantamzen]

If someone went against you generally in life and did something you fundamentally disagreed with would you treat that person different? Of course you would! Now as others have said some will give verbal abuse some will make it there career to try and make that persons life difficult. I won't...they just won't exist.

I disagree with people all the time, but that is not a precursor to treating them differently. Hells Teeth if I did I would never speak to my very right leaning, Daily Wail reading mother. What I do is try to explain my position, you know negotiate, and if common ground can't be reached leave it alone.

But here is a thought for you, what if one day you need the help from someone you choose to ignore because they have a different view to you? Swings and roundabouts like...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Christ almighty you best not get a job anywhere else, especially in the NHS you will spend your days not talking to anyone at all.... the world really isn't that black and white.

Would hate to work for the NHS I wouldn't screw over my colleagues to get a leg up in the world. I got where I am by doing my job correctly, being reliable and going the extra mile where needed NOT going against my colleagues.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

I disagree with people all the time, but that is not a precursor to treating them differently. Hells Teeth if I did I would never speak to my very right leaning, Daily Wail reading mother. What I do is try to explain my position, you know negotiate, and if common ground can't be reached leave it alone.

But here is a thought for you, what if one day you need the help from someone you choose to ignore because they have a different view to you? Swings and roundabouts like...

Simple I wouldn't ask and would find another way. I stick to my guns but I am not a hypocrite.

 

[Gems]

Management (Yes Management) offered Sundays, The Traincrew at that depot raised money and all sorts for that individual. He wouldn't accept it and still came in. Now 4 years later no one still speaks to that person. Grievances have been put in because no one speaks to that person (all been thrown out because not acknowledging someone or not speaking to them is not against any rules. Yes in some peoples minds people will think its childish but Traincrew have always been proud to watch each others back, when someone goes against that people do not forget rightly or wrongly.

We'll agree to disagree. Best wishes.

 

[Mintona]

I asked before but nobody seems to have an answer. What’s next? When, after next week the government still refuses a payrise, what do the RMT do next? Another week of strike’s two weeks later? And when the government still refuse a payrise, another one, and another one? What if the government never caves, (which they won’t as every strike saves them money)? Eventually staff will have to return to work, they can’t afford to stay off for weeks at a time indefinitely.

I’m estimating that at my place around 25% of RMT staff will report for duty as normal next week anyway. The strike vote was only just passed here. That figure will rise and rise as the weeks go by.

 

[Gems]

I asked before but nobody seems to have an answer. What’s next? When, after next week the government still refuses a payrise, what do the RMT do next? Another week of strike’s two weeks later? And when the government still refuse a payrise, another one, and another one? What if the government never caves, (which they won’t as every strike saves them money)? Eventually staff will have to return to work, they can’t afford to stay off for weeks at a time indefinitely.

I’m estimating that at my place around 25% of RMT staff will report for duty as normal next week anyway. The strike vote was only just passed here. That figure will rise and rise as the weeks go by.

I'll make a bold guesstimate. You know all the trains that are timetabled to run on the Leeds North West Triangle? Well I bet you can count on one hand the number of managers required to run them.

 

[Starmill]

I asked before but nobody seems to have an answer. What’s next? When, after next week the government still refuses a payrise, what do the RMT do next? Another week of strike’s two weeks later? And when the government still refuse a payrise, another one, and another one? What if the government never caves, (which they won’t as every strike saves them money)? Eventually staff will have to return to work, they can’t afford to stay off for weeks at a time indefinitely.

I’m estimating that at my place around 25% of RMT staff will report for duty as normal next week anyway. The strike vote was only just passed here. That figure will rise and rise as the weeks go by.

At the moment it's very much a case of waiting to see. The escalation was incredibly rapid and the dates seem to have been both more in number and also more provocative than expected.

I imagine that there were advocates at the top of RMT of doing one strike day at first then perhaps two a couple of weeks later i.e. space them out slightly more so that the war of words doesn't heat up as much and talks are usually more productive this way. However for whatever reason we don't know this view didn't win out and the larger escalation was put forward instead.

It's very much a possibility that it will need to be more and more days of strikes and impasse, but after these three days there's an opportunity at least for a bit of reset. So try not to worry and take stock in a little over a week's time would be my advice.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Nice to know you see your fellow colleagues as “vermin” and “parasites”. And you wonder why some believe railway staff attitudes should be confined to a bin in a previous generation.

A minority of the posts on here however really highlight some rather old-fashioned and somewhat poisonous views.

Not much for me to add other than EXACTLY.

 

[ar10642]

If someone went against you generally in life and did something you fundamentally disagreed with would you treat that person different? Of course you would! Now as others have said some will give verbal abuse some will make it there career to try and make that persons life difficult. I won't...they just won't exist.

The latest news in from the definitely not toxic workplace.

 

[Bantamzen]

Simple I wouldn't ask and would find another way. I stick to my guns but I am not a hypocrite.

So you would let your pride get in the way, very professional. And some members of these forums still wonder why some rail staff come under some criticism..

 

[wobman]

There's no trains running any services at my depot on the strike days next week, but non of the Tocs traincrew that run the services are on strike over pay.
I can't understand as everyone on here is going on saying its about tocs traincrew all being on strike, oh I know Why it's because the traincrew in most of the country are NOT on strike.

It's the rmt signallers on strike & the limited services are running due to TSSA management working in a limited manner at Rocs Or the bigger signal boxes.

But the traincrew at the depot & toc i work for will all be in work, not striking...

 

[SignallerJohn]

I asked before but nobody seems to have an answer. What’s next? When, after next week the government still refuses a payrise, what do the RMT do next? Another week of strike’s two weeks later? And when the government still refuse a payrise, another one, and another one? What if the government never caves, (which they won’t as every strike saves them money)? Eventually staff will have to return to work, they can’t afford to stay off for weeks at a time indefinitely.

I’m estimating that at my place around 25% of RMT staff will report for duty as normal next week anyway. The strike vote was only just passed here. That figure will rise and rise as the weeks go by.

Why would people on a public forum know the plans of the RMT lol

 

[Need2]

I asked before but nobody seems to have an answer. What’s next? When, after next week the government still refuses a payrise, what do the RMT do next? Another week of strike’s two weeks later? And when the government still refuse a payrise, another one, and another one? What if the government never caves, (which they won’t as every strike saves them money)? Eventually staff will have to return to work, they can’t afford to stay off for weeks at a time indefinitely.

I’m estimating that at my place around 25% of RMT staff will report for duty as normal next week anyway. The strike vote was only just passed here. That figure will rise and rise as the weeks go by.

I thought the odious Grantyboy said it wasn’t up to the government to decide pay rises, it was the tocs problem?

 

[Gems]

Why would people on a public forum know the plans of the RMT lol

Well they wouldn't. But people on here might have a better idea than the RMT of the views of the people working at specific depots. Let's just say, "Some depots are more militant than others"

 

[AntoniC]

I am lucky that as a Civil Servant I have been told to WFH on Tue/Wed/Thu so will be in the office Mon/Fri.( I commute to work by train)
I am also glad that I have been a Union member since I started working for the Civil Service in 1988 as the PCS Union has helped me 3 times the biggie being acquitted of Gross Miscondcut.
I supported the Merseyrail Guards during their recent lengthy dispute and support the RMT during this strke because if you don`t fight you lose.
I have previously gone on strike even though I voted no as the majority had voted for the strike.

 

[Gems]

I thought the odious Grantyboy said it wasn’t up to the government to decide pay rises, it was the tocs problem?

The government are being deceitful and we all know it. It's their dead hand behind the failure. Does anyone really believe that 13 TOC's couldn't come to a settlement

 

[GRALISTAIR]

When you give some people more, they just want more. Some people think money makes you happy but I have seen evidence of several unhappy train drivers who earn a very good wage so I would contest that! Of course, it's not a majority but a vocal minority, but they sure make themselves heard.

I totally agree. To go slightly OT and make it personal, when I resigned my job in the UK and left for the USA I said to the company owner, I would take a pay cut to be happy - it is not about the money.

Money does not buy happiness. However, lack of money and poor terms and conditions does produce stress etc. I just hope when this strike is over, there will not be major unhappiness with many in the industry. That can lead to (god forbid) mental health issues.

Now 4 years later no one still speaks to that person. Grievances have been put in because no one speaks to that person (all been thrown out because not acknowledging someone or not speaking to them is not against any rules. Yes in some peoples minds people will think its childish but Traincrew have always been proud to watch each others back, when someone goes against that people do not forget rightly or wrongly.

That can lead to mental illness and suicide and is not a healthy attitude.

 

[AntoniC]

New Colleagues know the benefits of a union no excuse. Same would apply. Its about knowing your colleagues have got your back. If some one is willing to go against a democratic vote I could never trust them again.

I wouldn't risk my career and certainly wouldn't abuse anyone and still would be professional but that would be it

Even though we are a big depot there isn't many people who are disliked and there is a lot of social meetings trips etc. One of the reasons I love my job. I would be very surprised if anyone did go against the strikes but if they did I have already explained my reaction.

Unions and colleagues provide support. Solidarity is strength. If people are severely struggling colleagues and the union will do our best to help as what was offered to the one person who broke the strike over the DOO Strikes. That person was offered extra hours and swaps by colleagues and management to not come in. He chose to come in and now to put it bluntly people see that person as a Pariah. Now as I have said I will not go name calling or abuse but Strike Breaking In my humble opinion is a morally bankrupt act.

If someone went against you generally in life and did something you fundamentally disagreed with would you treat that person different? Of course you would! Now as others have said some will give verbal abuse some will make it there career to try and make that persons life difficult. I won't...they just won't exist.

In a previous Civil Service office I worked in and was a rep in we had people who were members who crossed picket lines to work overtime during an overtime ban , of which a number has received a lot of union assisstance - as a Branch we decided we wouldn`t represent them again and they were told to contact out local PCS Regional Office to get a representative

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If some one is willing to go against a democratic vote I could never trust them again.

Yikes - OT I know but cant resist sorry. There was a certain vote about BREXIT - it was democratic ----- rapidly going down a rabbit hole here.

 

[Bantamzen]

In a previous Civil Service office I worked in and was a rep in we had people who were members who crossed picket lines to work overtime during an overtime ban , of which a number has received a lot of union assisstance - as a Branch we decided we wouldn`t represent them again and they were told to contact out local PCS Regional Office to get a representative

And this is a perfect way to unsell the union. Dear goodness, some people really can't let go of the 1970s...

And just to be clear, our union the PCS returned an 81% in favour of industrial action from a return of 45% ballots in the recent consultative vote. This could well be a result of industrial action fatigue over decades, combined with a realisation that chasing double figure pay rises is just unrealistic.

 

[windingroad]

So do you turn down pay rises yourself due to your concerns about inflation? If the answer to that is “no”, it’s likely because your self interest isn’t necessarily aligned with wider economic considerations. In just the same way, unions are concerned with the interests of their members, not those of the wider economy.

This is a great point. If you'd accept a similar wage increase but criticise the unions for seeking one, the only thing you actually oppose are other people getting pay rises.

I don't think anyone can credibly claim they'd reject an improved pay offer out of some high economic principle, so where does that leave us?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2022 ==

Yikes - OT I know but cant resist sorry. There was a certain vote about BREXIT - it was democratic ----- rapidly going down a rabbit hole here.

Unions are predicated on solidarity though. Disregarding the outcome of a vote disregards the entire point of being in that union.

 

[baz962]

Why is the industry short of drivers? I don't believe it's a question of the number of applicants, which is where price is the key point in competitive markets. Reduce the number of employers of qualified drivers, and the competition on price will fall. Ditto if the industry can recruit more drivers so that establishments stop being so tight.

To be honest I have no idea of the ins and outs. What I do know is that it is and was at my last toc. This is the first time or career/job ( I have had a few) in my life that I have had companies try and poach / headhunt myself and most of my colleagues have had this too. I know it happens in other industries , but first time for myself. I guess it also happens due to the lengthy cost and time to train new drivers , but even already qualified drivers take time to learn new routes and traction. So if say five drivers leave or retire and put in their three months notice, the company put out an ad and take roughly two weeks to sift and another to interview. They then have to choose the new hires and put them through the medical and get the results. You are now half way through the leavers notice period and the oncoming qualified are starting their three months and you have six weeks with five drivers down. Then the new drivers have to learn the routes and traction and that usually takes three to six months, depending on the toc and routes/traction. You only save on the rules course for already qualified drivers, but still have to assess them and have available driver instructors. Even if the company has a talent pool , still need the routes and traction and still lose several months.

 

[Bantamzen]

Unions are predicated on solidarity though. Disregarding the outcome of a vote disregards the entire point of being in that union.

Unions don't need a 100% backing to be effective though. Let's say 5-10% of the union member cross the picket lines next week. Will that mean the whole dispute falls apart, of course it won't. The dispute will fall apart because the unions are charging head on to a government ready holding the axe over its head ready to swing.

 

[baz962]

A million missing European workers

Not sure that is relevant to train driving though. At my last toc , they even had posters and reminded staff that they had a right to apply to remain and live and work here.