Rail strikes discussion

[Bletchleyite]

That doesn't sound like someone who will be happy if he gets a pay rise. It sounds like someone who wants to leave the industry but knows he'll have to accept lower pay in another industry, so he'll never be happy.

If he keeps doing that ("wilfully bringing your employer into disrepute" is usually considered gross misconduct) then it's likely he will have to accept lower pay in another industry because he'll get sacked before long.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure anyone is concluding that no children are affected. Indeed many people will be badly inconvenienced. But people are suggesting that you're being hyperbolic to claim exams won't be attended at all.

I never said exams won't be attended at all, as that would presume all school children require the train to get to school and no-one has any alternative. However, suggesting the other extreme that no-one will miss an exam as everyone will work out alternatives is equally false. Even if the trains were running there's a chance some children will miss exams due to a train breaking down or a signalling issue. I'm pretty sure there's a limit to how late a school can delay the start time of an exam by. They can't have their pupils getting messages from children at another school who've finished an exam before their pupils have started.

 

[matacaster]

Since there appears to be much speculation regarding the rule book that management and unions have previously agreed to, wouldnt it be a great idea for the rule book to be published on this forum? Then everyone can debate this topic in a fully informed manner.

Of course there may be a different rule book for each toc and also special depot agreements. Can't really see why it should be confidential.

 

[Wolfie]

Someone has submitted FOIs to relevant TOCS on WDTK about payments for contingency TMs during strikes. Interesting to see what comes back

Contingency Guard Payment Agreement documents or information. - a Freedom of Information request to London North Eastern Railway Limited

I have seen a document going around social media from Abellio Greater Anglia showing their "Contingency Guard Payment Agreement" for the upcoming strikes next week. The document sets out the full agreement with staff members that are becoming Contingency Guards and the rates of pay that they...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Almost certainly nothing. Firstly TOCs, with the possible exception of those run by DOR, are almost certainly not public bodies within the scope of the legislation. Secondly there are FOI exemptions for commercially sensitive information.

Disclosure: l have drafted and/or approved a lot of FOl responses!

 

[Starmill]

I never said exams won't be attended at all, as that would presume all school children require the train to get to school and no-one has any alternative. However, suggesting the other extreme that no-one will miss an exam as everyone will work out alternatives is equally false. Even if the trains were running there's a chance some children will miss exams due to a train breaking down or a signalling issue. I'm pretty sure there's a limit to how late a school can delay the start time of an exam by. They can't have their pupils getting messages from children at another school who've finished an exam before their pupils have started.

Your claim was that children would be unable to attend an exam where they otherwise would have because of the strike. I am explaining that this is extraordinarily unlikely for so many reasons which we've already explained, and you're picking up on a tiny chance. Focusing on a series of very unlikely coincidences is not a strong argument. Obviously in a small proportion of cases exams will still be missed because the children and their parents just aren't really bothered about them, though these will be very few in number and aren't anything to do with transport or the railway.

The strikes are very disruptive and inconvenient. You can sensibly put forward that argument with lots of logical points without resorting to bananas arguments about children missing out on major life events because of RMT.

 

[Wolfie]

Then why are they suppressing pay and enforcing TOCs via contract to follow through with their ambitions regarding modernisation

Because they are the employer's paymaster. You will not be getting more taxpayers money for a payrise, get used to that idea!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Given that there has been enough notice, won't schools have arranged coaches to bring children in so that they can take their exams?

 

[Wolfie]

That would be a meeting without tea and biscuits if I was his manager and heard about it. Employees must never, ever, in any business air their dirty laundry with customers in that manner. If there were managers on board, I suspect that meeting likely took place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2022 ==



Which is the correct answer. "I'm afraid that's a matter between us, our Unions and our employer, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to discuss it here" or somesuch is the right answer to such an approach.

Agreed.

 

[2021_Signaller]

That doesn't sound like someone who will be happy if he gets a pay rise. It sounds like someone who wants to leave the industry but knows he'll have to accept lower pay in another industry, so he'll never be happy.

It sounds like someone that has no choice but to strike but wants passengers to know he's not unsympathetic.

Similarly I was invited to go on GB News to discuss the strike action after I sent in an email defending the strike action. I declined it because I didn't think I could do the cause justice or could consider myself in any way a representative of the movement to speak for it. Been quite impressed by Mike Lynch whose media performances have been really good.

 

[uglymonkey]

Especially since whoever was on the carriage very probably a few of them , who had not seen a pay raise in a good long while, would jump at 3% !!!

 

[Watershed]

Almost certainly nothing. Firstly TOCs, with the possible exception of those run by DOR, are almost certainly not public bodies within the scope of the legislation.

Hence why the poster said 'relevant' TOCs. Nowadays that means 3 out of the 13 TOCs whose staff are on strike!

Secondly there are FOI exemptions for commercially sensitive information.

Which are frequently falsely applied. Quite a number of appeals are successful in this regard. I fail to see how it is commercially sensitive; embarrassing or liable to inflame tensions, perhaps. But the FoIA doesn't allow exemptions on that basis.

 

[Wolfie]

It sounds like someone that has no choice but to strike but wants passengers to know he's not unsympathetic.

Similarly I was invited to go on GB News to discuss the strike action after I sent in an email defending the strike action. I declined it because I didn't think I could do the cause justice or could consider myself in any way a representative of the movement to speak for it. Been quite impressed by Mike Lynch whose media performances have been really good.

Sensible man. Whatever your view with respect to the strikes it isn't hard to realise that anyone going into GB News, given its political stance is slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan, to defend them would be like Daniel entering the lion's den.

 

[northwichcat]

Given that there has been enough notice, won't schools have arranged coaches to bring children in so that they can take their exams?

School buses generally disappeared where there are alternative trains because the councils couldn't/wouldn't subside them anymore. A lot of operators have downscaled or gone out of business, while there's now a national shortage of bus drivers. There's going to be very limited availability of buses or coaches on strike days for any purpose, which is the excuse the rail operators have given for not organising them themselves.

 

[Wolfie]

Hence why the poster said 'relevant' TOCs. Nowadays that means 3 out of the 13 TOCs whose staff are on strike!


Which are frequently falsely applied. Quite a number of appeals are successful in this regard. I fail to see how it is commercially sensitive; embarrassing or liable to inflame tensions, perhaps. But the FoIA doesn't allow exemptions on that basis.

Re your last para you may be right. Of course the exemptions would be applied in any event. By the time the appeals process is exhausted, the Information Commissioner is involved etc, if you are correct you might possibly see something in 18-24 months time.....

 

[2021_Signaller]

Especially since whoever was on the carriage very probably a few of them , who had not seen a pay raise in a good long while, would jump at 3% !!!

We're not to blame for those that fail to unionise and take action against poor pay. For the amount of responsibility I have and the risks that I manage 29000 is low. Now it's 11% lower and who knows what else is coming, yet some people seem to think we should be cheery and grateful to be paid that. Nope. This will run and run.

If passengers are happy or think the government is supposedly defending their interests- more fool them.

 

[Watershed]

Re your last para you may be right. Of course the exemptions would be applied in any event. By the time the appeals process is exhausted, the Information Commissioner is involved etc, if you are correct you might possibly see something in 18-24 months time.....

Sadly that is very true. The Times recently ran an article about how various government departments have been stonewalling them with spurious exemptions, knowing full well that the political relevance behind the request will be gone by the time any appeal is decided. Unfortunately the appeals processes are far too slow to allow FoI to be an effective tool at holding a contemptuous and rule-breaking government to account. But I digress.

 

[northwichcat]

It sounds like someone that has no choice but to strike but wants passengers to know he's not unsympathetic.

Everyone has a choice. An individual who is in a union can choose not to strike and it probably won't even affect the dispute. It would only have an impact if hardly anyone walked out.

Comparing his role to being trapped in a poultry coop and indirectly making out his situation is worse than any the passengers could be in, is not being sympathetic! If he'd said "Like many of you we've not had pay rises and like many of you we face a cost of a living crisis where we won't be able to afford to heat our homes this winter unless we take action" then it would be a different situation.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If he keeps doing that ("wilfully bringing your employer into disrepute" is usually considered gross misconduct) then it's likely he will have to accept lower pay in another industry because he'll get sacked before long.

Exactly, it was pathetic and embarrassing. To think he actually gave his precise salary. And moaned that he couldn’t put food on the table. It was something like £40,000 which isn’t millions but will hardly put you in poverty when you think cabin crew start on roughly £15,000 and survive.

 

[Starmill]

Train crew are normally asked to give factual details about things like this. I.e. to explain how to find out more information about the service or yo point out there's disruption to the train service on specifc dates.

 

[2021_Signaller]

Everyone has a choice. An individual who is in a union can choose not to strike and it probably won't even affect the dispute. It would only have an impact if hardly anyone walked out.

Comparing his role to being trapped in a poultry coop and indirectly making out his situation is worse than any the passengers could be in, is not being sympathetic! If he'd said "Like many of you we've not had pay rises and like many of you we face a cost of a living crisis where we won't be able to afford to heat our homes this winter unless we take action" then it would be a different situation.

As I implied from my own example, I don't think it's a good idea. We are not politicians and should leave the public discourse to those that do it for a living.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

We're not to blame for those that fail to unionise and take action against poor pay. For the amount of responsibility I have and the risks that I manage 29000 is low. Now it's 11% lower and who knows what else is coming, yet some people seem to think we should be cheery and grateful to be paid that. Nope. This will run and run.

If passengers are happy or think the government is supposedly defending their interests- more fool them.

Pay is commensurate with grade and on the railway, presumably signalling grade is commensurate with the box/route worked.

I would expect a signaller working in a busy ROC to be on a higher grade (and therefore higher salary) than one working a box with an average 1tph in each direction

 

[Bletchleyite]

School buses generally disappeared where there are alternative trains because the councils couldn't/wouldn't subside them anymore. A lot of operators have downscaled or gone out of business, while there's now a national shortage of bus drivers. There's going to be very limited availability of buses or coaches on strike days for any purpose, which is the excuse the rail operators have given for not organising them themselves.

Though one thing I do find unacceptable is TOCs cancelling already-planned engineering RRBs on strike days. They should still run, even if they aren't useful to everyone.

 

[Wolfie]

Though one thing I do find unacceptable is TOCs cancelling already-planned engineering RRBs on strike days. They should still run, even if they aren't useful to everyone.

Unless they are being redeployed to something more useful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless they are being redeployed to something more useful.

Indeed, though in my experience they just get binned off entirely.

 

[SignallerJohn]

Exactly, it was pathetic and embarrassing. To think he actually gave his precise salary. And moaned that he couldn’t put food on the table. It was something like £40,000 which isn’t millions but will hardly put you in poverty when you think cabin crew start on roughly £15,000 and survive.

So, if you have a high mortgage because you have a higher salary are you saying people should be happy not to have a pay rise? Lol can you tell us all the price of house we should have, mortgage cost and outgoings, and could you let me know the minimum amount I can earn a year before I’m allowed to complain about a pay rise? Cheers.

Edit: survive, life in the UK is about surviving in 2022? Forget enjoying it, surviving??? Absolutely maddening you’re annoyed at someone earning 40k a year.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I have and the risks that I manage 29000 is low. Now it's 11% lower and who knows what else is coming, yet some people seem to think we should be cheery and grateful to be paid that.

I'm guessing you haven't been in the job/grade for long. At least your earning potential is higher if you manage to move up the career ladder

Why do you think the £29k salary for the risks that you manage are low? If you are working in a box that handles 1tph each way within a relatively short AB system, then surely, the risks are less than for somebody working in a panel box that controls 100s of miles?

 

[yorksrob]

Interestingly the treasury has waded into the debate:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-61862313

This week's rail strikes "will cause misery for millions", a government minister has said, but insisted public sector workers need to be "realistic" about pay rises.

Speaking to the BBC, Chief Secretary to the Treasury Simon Clarke said the government has to manage expectations on pay, saying double-digit wage hikes aren't affordable.

Clarke said he didn't want to see "inflation-busting" pay rises for public-sector workers because that would risk "baking in" higher prices through what's called a "wage price spiral".

Asked whether the government is happy to see the strikes take place for political reasons, Clarke said they "absolutely don't want them to go ahead" because they will "cause misery for millions of people".

"It is in everyone's interest, passengers and tax-payers alike, that we find a way forward," Clarke added.
A warning of the industrial action at Westminster London Underground station
PACopyright: PA

"There is no suggestion of a pay freeze, but we do need reforms - the rail industry is currently unsustainable and not fit for the 2020s.

"We are asking for the rail industry to reform itself sensibly. We need this to be resolved," Clarke says.

The government has faced criticism for not stepping into talks between the rail employers and the RMT, but Clarke says he doesn't think the union will negotiate in good faith.

He says it's been reported that RMT general secretary Mick Lynch will "not negotiate with a Tory government" so that limits the chances of a "sensible" negotiation.

"We don't sit around the table with the trade unions - we're not the employer," Clarke says.

 

[Class 466]

I can't remember if it's 1000 this morning or 2200 this evening before the strike timetable is uploaded and set in stone for us.

2200 the night before is standard procedure, after that any changes are for control to deal with. Even if the strike was called off at the very last minute, tomorrows service would definitely risk being heavily disrupted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2022 ==

Exactly, it was pathetic and embarrassing. To think he actually gave his precise salary. And moaned that he couldn’t put food on the table. It was something like £40,000 which isn’t millions but will hardly put you in poverty when you think cabin crew start on roughly £15,000 and survive.

I'm surprised this isn't all over twitter tbh, public are normally very hot this sort of thing - like the time a guard put in a manual destination on a 450 to say 'Vote Leave' (Pictured from a passing train) - I believe in doing so they voted to leave their employment!

 

[Watershed]

Interestingly the treasury has waded into the debate:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-61862313

They keep on claiming they're not the employer but, for all practical intents and purposes, they are! They accept they need to be around the table for teachers' negotiations, even though they are legally speaking employed by individual trusts, academies or local authorities - so how is this any different? The government literally reimburses the TOCs for every cost and decides what expenditure is and isn't acceptable to them.

This is a highly disingenuous attempt to sidestep accountability and pin the blame elsewhere. As for the suggestion that the RMT won't negotiate with a Tory government... they'd be waiting a long time for a payrise if that were really the case!

 

[Dan G]

Can anyone point me towards a *detailed* explainer of what this dispute is about please?

I've scoured the RMT website and get the gist -- paltry pay award, T&Cs attack, "pension raid", job cuts + and apparently Network Rail maintenance hour reductions -- but it's all in emotive language with no calm, clear detail. E.g. what actually are the T&C attacks? What changes to pensions are being proposed? As a veteran of many public pension changes, I want to know the details, the numbers.

I'd love to know the facts of the issues. The pay side I get and support -- staff absolutely deserve at least 7%. I'd like to know more about the rest so I can form an opinion about that too.

Just wondering if anyone could help out with my earlier request