SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Doomotron]

The “first class” seats are definitely in need of replacement - basically the standard class seats used on GWR’s HSTs and EMR/some of Scotrail’s 158s…

Some German S-bahn trains use the same seats in first class, so as @JonathanH says it's not unusual.

 

[Wolfie]

The 458 seats are lovely and squashy compared to any modern stock though. They really are very comfortable trains.

Squashy yes, comfy no, at least to me.

 

[fgwrich]

In a way, I hope they are binned off - the ex GatEx ones are certainly quite patched up with all sorts of plates covering the former hand grab handles / arm rests / seat numbers etc. I'm not sure how the rest of the original units are, but they were also modified and moved around a little.

 

[DelW]

In a way, I hope they are binned off - the ex GatEx ones are certainly quite patched up with all sorts of plates covering the former hand grab handles / arm rests / seat numbers etc. I'm not sure how the rest of the original units are, but they were also modified and moved around a little.

AIUI, only the original 458 coaches will be retained and refurbished, not the ex GatEx ones.

 

[43096]

AIUI, only the original 458 coaches will be retained and refurbished, not the ex GatEx ones.

To go from 5 cars back to 4 they can only remove the ex-460 trailer. The other two middle cars are a motor car (which you can't lose) and the car with the universal access toilet in it (which you also can't lose).

 

[Speed43125]

AIUI, only the original 458 coaches will be retained and refurbished, not the ex GatEx ones.

That's right, the formations will simply be returned to as built condition, albeit in current Siemenised form.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They will probably want to add tray tables though, so might depend on whether they can still source replacement backs for these seats which incorporate them.
Also arm rests would be nice to bring them up to 444 comfort level, there seems to be space on the existing seats. Only issue is the quite narrow aisle on 458s, not sure whether arm rests would make this worse or if it’s only narrow due to all of the grab rails.

They already have tray tables.

 

[fgwrich]

AIUI, only the original 458 coaches will be retained and refurbished, not the ex GatEx ones.

I know, but, certainly in the ex Gatwick vehicles, the seats have been battered and patched up over the years that, if the original units are the same, I wouldn’t bother retaining them. Just start afresh and replace them all.

That’s if the 458 rebuild program is still on track after all.

 

[JonathanH]

I know, but, certainly in the ex Gatwick vehicles, the seats have been battered and patched up over the years that, if the original units are the same, I wouldn’t bother retaining them. Just start afresh and replace them all.

That’s if the 458 rebuild program is still on track after all.

458529 to 458536 aren't in the conversion programme.

 

[fgwrich]

458529 to 458536 aren't in the conversion programme.

Again, I’m aware of that. The point I’m trying to make is that, if the seats in the original SWT 458s are as battered and as patched up as the seats in the former Gatwick units, then I would just replace all of them in the units to be retained.

 

[JonathanH]

Again, I’m aware of that. The point I’m trying to make is that, if the seats in the original SWT 458s are as battered and as patched up as the seats in the former Gatwick units, then I would just replace all of them in the units to be retained.

Right yes, my recollection is that quite a few of the seats have bent pans at their base. Seat frames and cushions out of the 456s (and 455s as they go) might have been a good move.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It really hasn't been unusual in the past for first class seats in outer suburban stock in the South East to be the same as those used as standard class in longer distance stock, sometimes adjusted to have a reclining mechanism.

317s had the same first class seats as were used in standard class on Mark 3 carriages

321s had the same first class seats as were used in standard class on 442s

350s and 450s (and 458s as built) have the same first class seats as installed in standard class on 377s.

Even what has gone in first class on the 444s (and could potentially go in a 458) is the standard class seat on 745s and 755s.

The current first class seats in the 458s were a reasonable step up on what was fitted before.

to add to this, the 1st class seats in 360s were the same as the standard class seats on TPE 185’s, even down to the same pattern moquette. No doubt the seats have been reupholstered now since the 360s moved to EMR and the TPE 185s were refurbished a few years ago

 

[D365]

That's right, the formations will simply be returned to as built condition, albeit in current Siemenised form.

What does "Siemensised" mean?

 

[janahan]

What does "Siemensised" mean?

When they changed the Cab of the 458 (the previous ones had some issues including a step, preventing passager use - officially), the rebuild changed the cabs to be able to couple with a desiro 450/444. Note, just couple, I dont think they can fully comminucate with each other in a pair, but a stranded 458 can be rescued by a 450/444 and vice versa.

 

[cjmillsnun]

What does "Siemensised" mean?

It’s the alterations to the corridor connection on the driving vehicles to a similar type to the desiro. They can still only run in service coupled to other 458s

 

[WarrenTManager]

When they changed the Cab of the 458 (the previous ones had some issues including a step, preventing passager use - officially), the rebuild changed the cabs to be able to couple with a desiro 450/444. Note, just couple, I dont think they can fully comminucate with each other in a pair, but a stranded 458 can be rescued by a 450/444 and vice versa.

Mechanical coupling only, 5 mph limit. Anything with a Dellner on SWR can couple. 701>458 have been test coupled for example. When 8501 had been damaged by fire at Windsor it and the other unit were helped back by a 450.

 

[janahan]

Mechanical coupling only, 5 mph limit. Anything with a Dellner on SWR can couple. 701>458 have been test coupled for example. When 8501 had been damaged by fire at Windsor it and the other unit were helped back by a 450.

Ahh, I was not aware that it can also couple to non-corridor Dellner (such as 707/701) too, though it seems obvious thinking about it. Was aware the speed limit was lower, but did not realise it was as low as 5mph, is this because the lack of communication effectively does not allow the brakes of the "non driver" part of the train to engage when the driven part is engaged, or something similar thus requiring safety built into stopping, or is there another reason?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

It has been said on here the current form of 458s are "faux-Desiros" with their similiar resemblance to 450s down to the blue livery & end gangways.

Looking forward to the refurb'd 458s, hope these will be just as good & comfortable as the 350s with LNR.

 

[Invincible]

Would have thought by now Alstom would have sent SWR at least one refurbished 458 for testing?.

 

[Western Sunset]

This one has been at BM for a while...

 

[Invincible]

This one has been at BM for a while...

Thought I saw a photo of some 458s being refurbished at Widnes?

 

[spark001uk]

What will be happening to the surplus coach taken out of each set? Storage? Or straight to scrap?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder if Porterbrook may have fitted the refurbished 458s with, not just the 442 first class seats as previously suggested but, the Grammar seats in standard from their unwanted 455/456 fleet that have been handed back by SWR. There's a good five or six 455s at LM, and of course the TOC got rid of all the 456s.

It would make a consistent product with the Desiros, and although the 450s are famously unpopular on the PDL, fitting them in a spaced 2+2 configuration (and adding seatback tables and armrests) would create a product not unlike the 442 offering.

Having said that there is nothing wrong with the 458 seats now (in fact I like them more than Desiro seats) and it'd probably be a load of hassle for very little gain; I just wondered if they'd be after a more consistent 3rd rail Mainline product.

 

[387star]

Like the 769 project I can see this getting scrapped

 

[nw1]

I wonder if Porterbrook may have fitted the refurbished 458s with, not just the 442 first class seats as previously suggested but, the Grammar seats in standard from their unwanted 455/456 fleet that have been handed back by SWR. There's a good five or six 455s at LM, and of course the TOC got rid of all the 456s.

It would make a consistent product with the Desiros, and although the 450s are famously unpopular on the PDL, fitting them in a spaced 2+2 configuration (and adding seatback tables and armrests) would create a product not unlike the 442 offering.

A neo-CIG if you like. That would be appropriate enough for the PDL fasts, I think.

 

[Jturner98]

What will be happening to the surplus coach taken out of each set? Storage? Or straight to scrap?

Scrap probably

 

[spark001uk]

I wonder if Porterbrook may have fitted the refurbished 458s with, not just the 442 first class seats as previously suggested but, the Grammar seats in standard from their unwanted 455/456 fleet that have been handed back by SWR.

Given the obscene amount of money spent on the 442 refurb - which came to no good, I would've thought it sensible to use whatever they could from them, to at least try and recoup some of it.

 

[fgwrich]

I wonder if Porterbrook may have fitted the refurbished 458s with, not just the 442 first class seats as previously suggested but, the Grammar seats in standard from their unwanted 455/456 fleet that have been handed back by SWR. There's a good five or six 455s at LM, and of course the TOC got rid of all the 456s.

It would make a consistent product with the Desiros, and although the 450s are famously unpopular on the PDL, fitting them in a spaced 2+2 configuration (and adding seatback tables and armrests) would create a product not unlike the 442 offering.

Having said that there is nothing wrong with the 458 seats now (in fact I like them more than Desiro seats) and it'd probably be a load of hassle for very little gain; I just wondered if they'd be after a more consistent 3rd rail Mainline product.

You'd like to hope so, but given the endless amount of former FGW Mk3s sent off for scrap, complete with Grammar seats inside them, I cant see anyone retaining the seats from either units unfortunately. New ironing boards seem to be the choice of the day, despite the utter wastage and commonality with other fleets.

Comfort wise the current seats may be reasonably ok, but condition wise many of them are poor. Battered, scraped and in the case of the 458s converted from 460s, riddled with the holes from the previous locations of grab handles / tables etc.

Like the 769 project I can see this getting scrapped

So can I.

Scrap probably

Currently in storage at Long Marston pending their fate, which mostly likely, will be scrap.

Given the obscene amount of money spent on the 442 refurb - which came to no good, I would've thought it sensible to use whatever they could from them, to at least try and recoup some of it.

Most of it went for scrap. As far as I'm aware, only the FC tables were re-used. I'm not even sure the barely used, brand new, FC Seats made it out of the class sin the end. An utterly wasteful end to the fleet.

 

[D365]

Given the obscene amount of money spent on the 442 refurb - which came to no good, I would've thought it sensible to use whatever they could from them, to at least try and recoup some of it.

Would Angel Trains have any incentive to provide Porterbrook with seats?

 

[spark001uk]

Would Angel Trains have any incentive to provide Porterbrook with seats?

I believe swr paid for the refurb, so wouldn't the parts technically be theirs?