Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[dk1]

The train drivers (and other staff required to run the service) should be forced to work on Sundays as part of their contract and a Saturday level of service should be offered on routes where demand requires it.

There should be an increase in the 35hr contracted week to cover this and no additional pay rise to compensate, as most other jobs already involve 37/39/40hr plus weeks excluding unpaid breaks.

Anyone who doesn't want to work under a contract mandating Sunday shifts can find gainful employment elsewhere as there seems to be little shortage of applicants for jobs driving trains.

Now that’s a trolling based bait post if ever I’ve seen one. I’m choking on my Châteauneuf-du-Pape lol

 

[jayah]

Actually only asmall percentage of nurses are bands 6 to 8. My wife had decades of experience but was band 5 doing paediatric oncology ( £26,000 - £ 30000) prior to COVID. Can you believe it.

Teachers, Social Workers & Police mostly £30, 000 -£35,000.
The limited public sector pay funding should go to levelling up pay between professions.

Why has train driver pay lept ahead of these other professions in the last 40 years.

I am anything but anti driver. It is an admirable career. I have traveled by train for 70 years including to school, work & leisure as far as S. Italy

Driver pay has leapt ahead because of the competitive market. The companies need drivers, and they are expensive to train. Suddenly they have to confront the reality of having a monopoly buyer of their labour a bit like the NHS.

Train companies used to get large fines for cancelling trains, while the NHS doesn't get fined for having thousands of unfilled nursing vacancies. This is another area where nationalisation in all but name will make the railway look a lot more like the NHS.

 

[Julia1985]

Anyone who doesn't want to work under a contract mandating Sunday shifts can find gainful employment elsewhere as there seems to be little shortage of applicants for jobs driving trains.

There is a vast difference between the number of applicants, and those capable of making the grade.

 

[dk1]

Should have happened years ago.

You have form.

 

[jayah]

There is a vast difference between the number of applicants, and those capable of making the grade.

There is absolutely no difficulty in finding applicants who make the grade.

 

[HST274]

View attachment 117588

Frankly if this no compulsory Redundancies was guaranteed declining this offer, calling it paltry and immediately announcing strikes was dangerous. Perhaps the first action was fair- mandating lots of weekends and later retirement is not good- but otherwise this deal is a huge improvement and I believe should not have been so hugely declined. As well as this, putting such a deal to the members is the definition of democracy is it not?

 

[Jimmy Foster]

View attachment 117588

That’s nowhere near a third of front line staff.

I have no problem with RMT rejecting the offer but this claim and the one about giving senior staff a 40% pay rise (or whatever it says) are somewhere between disingenuous and outright lies. That sort of misrepresentation can heavily influence members and that feels wrong.

 

[jayah]

You have form.

You are in danger of confusing opinions you don't happen agree with, and other things.

By going to war with the government (and making little secret of it) the militant trade unions are turning their members pay and conditions into a matter of political debate and they may not like the results.

You don't know how lucky you were to have it privatised, and I don't know why your unions fought tooth and nail to return to the public sector.

 

[Julia1985]

There is absolutely no difficulty in finding applicants who make the grade.

You got the figures to hand of those that get through the psychometric testing of those that apply yeah?

No, didn’t think so.

 

[jayah]

You got the figures to hand of those that get through the psychometric testing of those that apply yeah?

No, didn’t think so.

You are welcome to share them if you want to prove otherwise.

 

[Signal_Box]

The RMT official on the evening news tonight confirmed that the offer had not been put to the membership.

Correct as 95% of signallers and operations staff would accept it, that would leave maintenance in a difficult place out on their own.

 

[Towers]

Driver pay has leapt ahead because of the competitive market. The companies need drivers, and they are expensive to train. Suddenly they have to confront the reality of having a monopoly buyer of their labour a bit like the NHS.

Train companies used to get large fines for cancelling trains, while the NHS doesn't get fined for having thousands of unfilled nursing vacancies. This is another area where nationalisation in all but name will make the railway look a lot more like the NHS.

There is also the fact, rarely considered when the tedious "but nurses...!!" comparisons are rolled out, that if the creaking, shuddering wreck that is the NHS had to answer to the same level of safety responsibility that the railway does, the whole lot would be shut down.

Nurses routinely working 12 hours at a time or more with minimal breaks, staff running about like headless chickens dishing out drugs that can easily kill, hospital wards that look like warzones, people dumped in corridors or sat in the back of an ambo as it queues up outside.... Whilst the indviduals keeping the thing running are generally amazing, the overall safety culture of the NHS is appalling. No professional industry like a railway could possibly contemplate behaving in that way, it would rightly be considered lethal to operate in such an openly haphazard and inadequate manner. There is a far, far higher degree of professionalism presented by our railways than there is by the NHS, and the salaries paid are reflective of that culture. Nurses being paid peanuts is not a reflection on traincrew being overpaid, rather it is one of the symptoms of the chronic underfunding and managed decline of the NHS. The comparison simply isn't valid.

 

[JonathanH]

Correct as 95% of signallers and operations staff would accept it, that would leave maintenance in a difficult place out on their own.

It would also leave guards in a difficult place as the signallers are the key group who can actually bring the railway to more of a standstill.

 

[jayah]

There is also the fact, rarely considered when the tedious "but nurses...!!" comparisons are rolled out, that if the creaking, shuddering wreck that is the NHS had to answer to the same level of safety responsibility that the railway does, the whole lot would be shut down.

Nurses routinely working 12 hours at a time or more with minimal breaks, staff running about like headless chickens dishing out drugs that can easily kill, hospital wards that look like warzones, people dumped in corridors or sat in the back of an ambo as it queues up outside.... Whilst the indviduals keeping the thing running are generally amazing, the overall safety culture of the NHS is appalling. No professional industry like a railway could possibly contemplate behaving in that way, it would rightly be considered lethal to operate in such an openly haphazard and inadequate manner. There is a far, far higher degree of professionalism presented by our railways than there is by the NHS, and the salaries paid are reflective of that culture. Nurses being paid peanuts is not a reflection on traincrew being overpaid, rather it is one of the symptoms of the chronic underfunding and managed decline of the NHS. The comparison simply isn't valid.

Monopoly buyer of labour. They run thousands of almost permanently unfilled nursing roles. A lot of what you describe could have been BR in the early 1990s.

Why ever did the rail unions want to compete with nurses for public cash?

We now have a Dutch auction of fantasy tax cuts in the Conservative Party. The idea drivers are going to get 4% this year to cover RPI and 10% the next, without paying for it in productivity is fantasy.

It is far easier to cut train services than cut the number of people needing hip replacements although the NHS does have a few tricks there.

 

[Signal_Box]

It would also leave guards in a difficult place as the signallers are the key group who can actually bring the railway to more of a standstill.

I left the grade as I saw the writing on the wall, secure your own future or lose it unfortunately.

 

[irish_rail]

There is also the fact, rarely considered when the tedious "but nurses...!!" comparisons are rolled out, that if the creaking, shuddering wreck that is the NHS had to answer to the same level of safety responsibility that the railway does, the whole lot would be shut down.

Nurses routinely working 12 hours at a time or more with minimal breaks, staff running about like headless chickens dishing out drugs that can easily kill, hospital wards that look like warzones, people dumped in corridors or sat in the back of an ambo as it queues up outside.... Whilst the indviduals keeping the thing running are generally amazing, the overall safety culture of the NHS is appalling. No professional industry like a railway could possibly contemplate behaving in that way, it would rightly be considered lethal to operate in such an openly haphazard and inadequate manner. There is a far, far higher degree of professionalism presented by our railways than there is by the NHS, and the salaries paid are reflective of that culture. Nurses being paid peanuts is not a reflection on traincrew being overpaid, rather it is one of the symptoms of the chronic underfunding and managed decline of the NHS. The comparison simply isn't valid.

Decent post. I once knew a nurse who admitted there was no rules about them being under the influence of alcohol on duty. The railway is a strichter world altogether in so many ways.

And just another point, most of the nurses doing 12 hour shifts also do a 3, yes a 3 day week. So let's not all feel too sorry for them (although they have my utmost admiration and respect!).

 

[jayah]

Decent post. I once knew a nurse who admitted there was no rules about them being under the influence of alcohol on duty. The railway is a strichter world altogether in so many ways.

And just another point, most of the nurses doing 12 hour shifts also do a 3, yes a 3 day week. So let's not all feel too sorry for them (although they have my utmost admiration and respect!).

No rules about being under the influence? I don't actually believe that, but it sounds more and more like the nationalised railway of the 80s/90s!

My reading of one autobiography was that the NHS was it operates like a public school with Junior Doctors, Registrars working insane hours (basically fagging for more senior grades). If they survive the initiation (lasting years) they make Consultant which was made to sound like a very well paid cushy number with not much actual work and an improving golf handicap.

The author didn't make it there, so this may well have influenced his write up.

Another one to note is why so very few nurses ever progress to the medical doctor grades, despite both being degree educated.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2022 ==

I feel sorry for you if you think that the conflict in Ukraine is a "convenient cover" and has no effect on many different countries with energy and food supplies being disrupted. The latest news from Sri Lanka should be a good example of the area of the world that has been so affected.

The crisis in Sri Lanka was caused by the government banning fertilisers, so in fact had its origins in the same environmental cultist policies like net zero that caused our own fuel / heating problems.

Gas was soaring last autumn and the problem with fuel has more to do with refining than crude oil prices, which were above $100 for much of 2008-14.

 

[Wolfie]

I’ve never seen “hope” spelt “f e a r”.

Not true. Government doing that even once sets a bloody awful precedent.

 

[dk1]

You are in danger of confusing opinions you don't happen agree with, and other things.

By going to war with the government (and making little secret of it) the militant trade unions are turning their members pay and conditions into a matter of political debate and they may not like the results.

You don't know how lucky you were to have it privatised, and I don't know why your unions fought tooth and nail to return to the public sector.

Neither do I having always been a massive fan of privatisation.

 

[O L Leigh]

Another one to note is why so very few nurses ever progress to the medical doctor grades, despite both being degree educated.

Because they are totally different career paths. Nursing does not lead onto being a doctor.

Monopoly buyer of labour.

Not so. There is the private healthcare sector together with other hybrid career paths (e.g. bank and agency).

If you’re going to try and make comparisons do please at least get your facts straight.

 

[SA91]

Another one to note is why so very few nurses ever progress to the medical doctor grades, despite both being degree educated.

To get into the medical doctor grade, you need to be a medical doctor. To be a medical doctor, you need to have done Medicine as your degree...

 

[Wolfie]

To get into the medical doctor grade, you need to be a medical doctor. To be a medical doctor, you need to have done Medicine as your degree...

Absolutely. Is, or certainly was, the second hardest degree to get onto....

Three guesses what the hardest was (remember that we are British)?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

ah, I ready the May report of the MPC, evidently updated for June! Apologies.

This is the current forecast from BoE

 

[Mat17]

Absolutely. Is, or certainly was, the second hardest degree to get onto....

Three guesses what the hardest was (remember that we are British)?

Latin

 

[Horizon22]

It seems that the general public is not so in favour of the strikes this time from general musings I've seen so far. Perhaps it is because in the public eye's the 5% threshold is seen as "about right" and as that has been reached, it's now flipped a bit to being greedy. I think what some have said is correct is that certain roles represented by the RMT would jump on this, and others wouldn't. Might be some internal strife.

 

[Goldfish62]

It seems that the general public is not so in favour of the strikes this time from general musings I've seen so far. Perhaps it is because in the public eye's the 5% threshold is seen as "about right" and as that has been reached, it's now flipped a bit to being greedy. I think what some have said is correct is that certain roles represented by the RMT would jump on this, and others wouldn't. Might be some internal strife.

Maybe that is why it's just one day this time. For an outright rejection of the offer I'd have expected at least three days again.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It seems that the general public is not so in favour of the strikes this time from general musings I've seen so far. Perhaps it is because in the public eye's the 5% threshold is seen as "about right" and as that has been reached, it's now flipped a bit to being greedy. I think what some have said is correct is that certain roles represented by the RMT would jump on this, and others wouldn't. Might be some internal strife.

If it was 5% no strings attached then they might get it over the line. What the public aren't being told is the job losses, ok not 30% as RMT say but still around 18% of mtce workforce although doubt they will have any trouble finding VS candidates. The issue that RMT also major on is the change to working conditions ie having to work 39 weekends a year and 39 weeks of night shifts for no additional remuneration.

 

[dk1]

Maybe that is why it's just one day this time. For an outright rejection of the offer I'd have expected at least three days again.

Unless it’s a drip-feed release of dates & that ASLEF will do the days in between. It can all become so complicated with a bit of coordination.

 

[Wolfie]

Latin

Haha Veterinary science would you believe.

 

[HST274]

If it was 5% no strings attached then they might get it over the line. What the public aren't being told is the job losses, ok not 30% as RMT say but still around 18% of mtce workforce although doubt they will have any trouble finding VS candidates. The issue that RMT also major on is the change to working conditions ie having to work 39 weekends a year and 39 weeks of night shifts for no additional remuneration.

The point is they did guarantee no compulsory Redundancies until GBR come in. Am I right in saying the pay rise won't happen in 2 years if those severance aren't met though?