"Covid rising in England" - let's stop the fear mongering

[Cdd89]

The problem is that there are no openly anti-Covidians in the Labour party

Ben Bradshaw was very vocal against international travel restrictions (in contrast to the rest of his party).

Unfortunately he was very pro masks etc, but I thought he was a positive influence anyway.



I think supporting ever-harsher restrictions was (politically) very short sighted of Starmer. He was able to briefly be the party that cares about Saving Lives, but lost the ability to criticise authoritarian policies typically associated with the hard right, including hotel-quarantine / “expect a knock at your door” / “snitch on your neighbour”; as well as the economic consequences of the outrageous spending.

 

[danm14]

International travel restrictions are the ones I worry about. We had those as recently as January this year.

January?

Mandatory paid pre- and post-arrival testing for the unvaccinated was not removed until mid-March, and in any case I am doubtful that it would have been removed so quickly were it not for Ireland suddenly and unexpectedly dropping travel restrictions entirely, rendering the UK's entirely evadable by routing via Dublin.

While many may not have been affected by travel restrictions that only applied to the unvaccinated in the past, what's to say that the definition of vaccinated the next time round won't involve two boosters, or even a specific requirement for an Omicron-specific booster?

 

[bramling]

Some people were bribed, and took the bribe, with the promise of "working" from home.

And furlough, and eat out to help out.

For some people it all amounted to a nice little package, especially when the restrictions on travel were lifted.

The emergency measures implemented in March 2020 should never have been allowed to become de-facto business as usual. Indeed, even the likes of Whitty at the time I seem to remember stating that much of what was implemented was part of a “delay” strategy. There was *never* any policy to stop Joe Public catching Covid, just not too many people having it at the same time - and, in the case of shielding, vulnerable people catching it before having been vaccinated.

 

[MikeWM]

The emergency measures implemented in March 2020 should never have been allowed to become de-facto business as usual. Indeed, even the likes of Whitty at the time I seem to remember stating that much of what was implemented was part of a “delay” strategy. There was *never* any policy to stop Joe Public catching Covid, just not too many people having it at the same time - and, in the case of shielding, vulnerable people catching it before having been vaccinated.

Exactly this. The whole argument that lockdown was sold on was 'flattening the curve' , not reducing the area under it, in order to allow for a rapid build-up of healthcare capacity. Even the wretched Ferguson's paper that was partly to blame for the hysteria showed that - you try to delay people getting it, not prevent it. He never claimed (well, not in March 2020 at least) that we could prevent the vast majority of the population being infected.

Somehow once we were in lockdown, the whole argument shifted to (utterly futile) prevention, that herd immunity was no longer a thing, that natural immunity was useless, that zero-Covid was possible, that we had to lockdown until we got a vaccine, etc. etc.

It was a bait-and-switch. And most people didn't notice.

 

[Eyersey468]

Exactly this. The whole argument that lockdown was sold on was 'flattening the curve' , not reducing the area under it, in order to allow for a rapid build-up of healthcare capacity. Even the wretched Ferguson's paper that was partly to blame for the hysteria showed that - you try to delay people getting it, not prevent it. He never claimed (well, not in March 2020 at least) that we could prevent the vast majority of the population being infected.

Somehow once we were in lockdown, the whole argument shifted to (utterly futile) prevention, that herd immunity was no longer a thing, that natural immunity was useless, that zero-Covid was possible, that we had to lockdown until we got a vaccine, etc. etc.

It was a bait-and-switch. And most people didn't notice.

I agree most people didn't notice the shifting of the goalposts

 

[bramling]

Exactly this. The whole argument that lockdown was sold on was 'flattening the curve' , not reducing the area under it, in order to allow for a rapid build-up of healthcare capacity. Even the wretched Ferguson's paper that was partly to blame for the hysteria showed that - you try to delay people getting it, not prevent it. He never claimed (well, not in March 2020 at least) that we could prevent the vast majority of the population being infected.

Somehow once we were in lockdown, the whole argument shifted to (utterly futile) prevention, that herd immunity was no longer a thing, that natural immunity was useless, that zero-Covid was possible, that we had to lockdown until we got a vaccine, etc. etc.

It was a bait-and-switch. And most people didn't notice.

It probably didn’t help that Labour chose to weaponise the issue, in the same way that it became weaponised in America. It didn’t help that both countries had soppy comic-style leaders, which made it very easy for oppositions to score points off the muddled response and poor comms.

I’d also suggest that a further issue we had here was a Chancellor who saw the whole thing as a tool for building up his own profile, and a PM who didn’t have the stomach for taking unpopular decisions like a timely end to furlough.

 

[greyman42]

Quite. I've often voted for Labour in the past, but no way I could do so if he remains the leader at the next election. He backed every restriction imposed by the government and was regularly demanding more restrictions, tougher restrictions, longer restrictions. The problem is that there are no openly anti-Covidians in the Labour party. Not that there were huge numbers in the Tories either, but there were a few and they were quite vocal when they had the opportunity.

There are more than just a few who are anti-restriction in the Conservatives, unlike Labour.

 

[43301]

There are more than just a few who are anti-restriction in the Conservatives, unlike Labour.

There are, but only relatively few who have repeatedly been openly critical of the restrictions.

 

[bramling]

There are, but only relatively few who have repeatedly been openly critical of the restrictions.

Which is all actually rather surprising for a number of reasons.

Firstly I get the feeling a greater proportion of Labour voters have simply wanted to get on with life, as opposed to somewhere like my own town which is generally Conservative and full of work-from-home types who have always wanted to string this all out (for everyone else, not necessarily themselves, of course). Secondly, one would expect Labour voters to be more heavily impacted by some of the consequences we have seen and are now seeing, not least the high inflation. Thirdly, with Covid being more of a threat to older people, and with older people in general being more likely to vote Conservative, one would expect that to be a factor too. But since when did logic come into any of this?!

 

[43301]

Which is all actually rather surprising for a number of reasons.

Firstly I get the feeling a greater proportion of Labour voters have simply wanted to get on with life, as opposed to somewhere like my own town which is generally Conservative and full of work-from-home types who have always wanted to string this all out (for everyone else, not necessarily themselves, of course). Secondly, one would expect Labour voters to be more heavily impacted by some of the consequences we have seen and are now seeing, not least the high inflation. Thirdly, with Covid being more of a threat to older people, and with older people in general being more likely to vote Conservative, one would expect that to be a factor too. But since when did logic come into any of this?!

I think this highlights the widening gulf between the traditional Labour voter, who is probably as you say, and the metropolical liberal-left Labour voter who work in things like media, communications and education - this lot benefitted from the restrictions in many cases, and they are the ones who largely control the Labour party these days.

 

[Jimini]

Exactly this. The whole argument that lockdown was sold on was 'flattening the curve' , not reducing the area under it, in order to allow for a rapid build-up of healthcare capacity. Even the wretched Ferguson's paper that was partly to blame for the hysteria showed that - you try to delay people getting it, not prevent it. He never claimed (well, not in March 2020 at least) that we could prevent the vast majority of the population being infected.

Somehow once we were in lockdown, the whole argument shifted to (utterly futile) prevention, that herd immunity was no longer a thing, that natural immunity was useless, that zero-Covid was possible, that we had to lockdown until we got a vaccine, etc. etc.

It was a bait-and-switch. And most people didn't notice.

Very. Well. Said.

 

[jumble]

There are also of course the graphs from numerous countries around the world which clearly show that mask mandates had no discernible effect on infection rates. They’re probably the most compelling “real world” evidence there is.

I agree
However surely if there actually was any evidence it would seem logical that The government/Sadiq Kahn etc would be shouting from the rooftops about it

 

[nw1]

I think supporting ever-harsher restrictions was (politically) very short sighted of Starmer. He was able to briefly be the party that cares about Saving Lives, but lost the ability to criticise authoritarian policies typically associated with the hard right, including hotel-quarantine / “expect a knock at your door” / “snitch on your neighbour”; as well as the economic consequences of the outrageous spending.

This, together with the fact that Omicron both spreads very easily and isn't so serious (and hence restrictions are pointless), is why he needs to change tack soon. I agree that he should have come out against hard-right extremist nonsense like hotel quarantine with a four-figure bill payable by the individual concerned.

If he has any sense he won't focus on Covid at all, and instead focus on the cost of living crisis and attacking the Tories on other matters. As someone who has never liked the Tories (especially since 2016) and thus wants to see a change of party in government, I hope he and his party will indeed do this. There are other lines of attack on the Tories besides Covid, and, despite not liking Johnson and the Tories, I don't think they can be blamed for Covid!

 

[DustyBin]

I agree
However surely if there actually was any evidence it would seem logical that The government/Sadiq Kahn etc would be shouting from the rooftops about it

That’s a good point; if there was any evidence they’d have made damn sure we’d seen it!

In reality “masks work” is the very definition of dogma.

 

[greyman42]

If he has any sense he won't focus on Covid at all, and instead focus on the cost of living crisis and attacking the Tories on other matters.

He won't want to focus on covid at all because he has been found out as someone who wanted more lockdowns/restrictions than the Conservatives.
However the question is bound to come up whether he likes it or not.

 

[duncanp]

He won't want to focus on covid at all because he has been found out as someone who wanted more lockdowns/restrictions than the Conservatives.
However the question is bound to come up whether he likes it or not.

I bet Sir Kier Starmer is also very glad that COVID happened whilst the Conservatives were in power, and that he didn't have to take responsibility for all the difficult decisions.

 

[greyman42]

I bet Sir Kier Starmer is also very glad that COVID happened whilst the Conservatives were in power, and that he didn't have to take responsibility for all the difficult decisions.

You can add the cost of living issues and the war in the Ukraine to that list.
But saying that, we should all be glad (apart from those who enjoyed the lockdown/restrictions) that Starmer was not in power during covid as life would of been a lot more miserable under a Labour government and lockdowns/restrictions would have lasted a lot longer and we would probably still have mask mandates.
And to think that some people are actually shouting for a Labour government.

 

[duncanp]

You can add the cost of living issues and the war in the Ukraine to that list.
But saying that, we should all be glad (apart from those who enjoyed the lockdown/restrictions) that Starmer was not in power during covid as life would of been a lot more miserable under a Labour government and lockdowns/restrictions would have lasted a lot longer and we would probably still have mask mandates.
And to think that some people are actually shouting for a Labour government.

Yes, I think Sadiq Khant in London has given us a view on the level of restrictions that would have been in force under a Labour government.

 

[43301]

You can add the cost of living issues and the war in the Ukraine to that list.
But saying that, we should all be glad (apart from those who enjoyed the lockdown/restrictions) that Starmer was not in power during covid as life would of been a lot more miserable under a Labour government and lockdowns/restrictions would have lasted a lot longer and we would probably still have mask mandates.
And to think that some people are actually shouting for a Labour government.

Quite! I've never voted Tory, but I have no doubt that if we'd had Labour in charge things would have been worse - look at New Zealand and Canada for examples of what left-wing governments did. Starmer has had his chance at leadership and blown it - nobody on the left who is against these measures should be voting for a party led by him now (and apart from the diehards, many won't if he's still in charge at the next general election).

 

[Eyersey468]

To be honest the chance of me voting for any of the main political parties at the next election is zero

 

[Mikw]

You can add the cost of living issues and the war in the Ukraine to that list.
But saying that, we should all be glad (apart from those who enjoyed the lockdown/restrictions) that Starmer was not in power during covid as life would of been a lot more miserable under a Labour government and lockdowns/restrictions would have lasted a lot longer and we would probably still have mask mandates.
And to think that some people are actually shouting for a Labour government.

I don't see how you can say that with certainty. What we got was what we go, long lockdowns and draconinan restrictions.

By the way, i don't think Starmer is "left wing" at all. Blair wasn't. Corbyn and Foot were though.

 

[kez19]

I don't see how you can say that with certainty. What we got was what we go, long lockdowns and draconinan restrictions.

By the way, i don't think Starmer is "left wing" at all. Blair wasn't. Corbyn and Foot were though.

Let’s not forget, Ferguson bonked, Boris and the devolved nations partied, Kay Burley and Beth Rigby too partied but still the public were thrown to the wolves!

 

[Philip]

I doubt most of the public would hold Keir Starmer's previous stance on lockdown measures against him should there be an election soon; most people will be more interested in the problems of today, namely the cost of living crisis, and how he is going to deal with them. He is not advocating a return to restrictions so what he did in the past shouldn't be of much relevance now that vaccines and immunity are the weapons against the virus.

 

[nw1]

I doubt most of the public would hold Keir Starmer's previous stance on lockdown measures against him should there be an election soon; most people will be more interested in the problems of today, namely the cost of living crisis, and how he is going to deal with them. He is not advocating a return to restrictions so what he did in the past shouldn't be of much relevance now that vaccines and immunity are the weapons against the virus.

Completely agree with this.

I am not a supporter of restrictions in 2022, but come 2024 I doubt Covid will be much of an issue, despite the media still doubtless trying to make it one even then. People will vote on other matters, I suspect.

A lot will depend on how bad the cost of living crisis proves to be this winter, and will people blame the incumbents?

 

[Whistler40145]

Does everyone else think the advice by the World Health Organisation to mask up and possibly introduce a lockdown is old hat and very much a backwards move?

 

[nw1]

Does everyone else think the advice by the World Health Organisation to mask up and possibly introduce a lockdown is old hat and very much a backwards move?

What's the source of this? Done a quick search on "world health organization lockdown" and it's not coming up with any recent news - just things about the authoritarian and self-defeating extremism going on in China.

 

[Whistler40145]

What's the source of this? Done a quick search on "world health organization lockdown" and it's not coming up with any recent news - just things about the authoritarian and self-defeating extremism going on in China.

I'm not too sure, but some stupid fool posted a video on YouTube saying that behind the scenes in Whitehall they're planning a lockdown to save the NHS

I don't think this is credible information as not one of the Tory Leader candidates have mentioned such an idea and think most are anti lockdown

 

[nw1]

I'm not too sure, but some stupid fool posted a video on YouTube saying that behind the scenes in Whitehall they're planning a lockdown to save the NHS

Probably a wind-up, I'd imagine. And lockdown certainly won't "save the NHS". Not now, at any rate.

 

[duncanp]

I'm not too sure, but some stupid fool posted a video on YouTube saying that behind the scenes in Whitehall they're planning a lockdown to save the NHS

I think there is more chance of me testing negative if I take a COVID test within the next 5 minutes than there being another lockdown.

You Tube and social media in general are full of clickbait content like this.

 

[Whistler40145]

Probably a wind-up, I'd imagine. And lockdown certainly won't "save the NHS". Not now, at any rate.

I know, visited my Doctors recently and now it's the norm for the medical staff rather than the patient to wear a mask