Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[ComUtoR]

As a taxpayer who isn't prepared to pay one cent for your "fair increase", and who will be getting 2% at best myself, deal with it!

If you don't like it. Maybe you should quit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you don't like it. Maybe you should quit.

Should the advice given above apply to all working people?

 

[dk1]

Thanks for the confirmation

ASLEF striking Saturday 23rd at GA too.

 

[Wolfie]

If you don't like it. Maybe you should quit.

If that meant sensible payrises on the railway l would. At least my taxes wouldn't be spunked away!

 

[Signal_Box]

Thankfully people like you have no choice in the matter.
As a taxpayer you have no choice in anything so brush that chip off your shoulder and get on with life.

People like this (who you replied to) seem to forget WE are tax payers as well, the amount of tax I paid last year paid the FULL salary of a nurse.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thinking of recent comments made by the Opposition Front Bench in recent weeks that the Prime Minister should be actively involved in resolving this dispute, but now noting the situation in which the Prime Minister is in, we could also approach another senior politician from outside this country for advice and ask Mr V Putin on the way he would advise on transport matters, based on how he as head of state would do at home. If this advice was forthcoming, which party in this dispute would fare the best?

 

[Exscrew]

If that meant sensible payrises on the railway l would. At least my taxes wouldn't be spunked away!

What a ridiculous statement to make.
The wages of public sector workers is a mere drop in the ocean compared to the money that has been scammed out of the system by corruption via MPs, ie ppe scandal, Chris graylings ferries, moody contracts with organisations to work privately in public sector.
Stop getting your opinions from Facebook and the daily mail.
If you genuinely think workers asking for a payrise is the issue then you need to give your head a wobble.

 

[ComUtoR]

Should the advice given above apply to all working people?

The problem is, this is a common rhetoric espoused by many. It comes in various forms. "You know what you signed up for", "other people are queueing to take your job" and yes, "if you don't like it, quit" We are currently in a country where "shut up and take it" is pretty much the new normal. We have people who are in public service espousing the view that they are suffering so should everyone else.

The flip side, of course, is to stand up and fight for what you believe in, fight for better conditions, and work hard for a long term career in something you love and enjoy doing.

Which would you prefer ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem is, this is a common rhetoric espoused by many. It comes in various forms. "You know what you signed up for", "other people are queueing to take your job" and yes, "if you don't like it, quit" We are currently in a country where "shut up and take it" is pretty much the new normal. We have people who are in public service espousing the view that they are suffering so should everyone else.

The flip side, of course, is to stand up and fight for what you believe in, fight for better conditions, and work hard for a long term career in something you love and enjoy doing.

Which would you prefer ?

At the age of 77, my preference is somewhat immaterial, having worked all my business life, both at home and abroad. Maybe I was fortunate in having a well-known reputation for managerial skills having reached that level in my mid-30s and was "headhunted" on two occasions, the last of these being the consultancy that I retired from in March 2010. I was known for working long hours on certain projects which I saw as a challenge for me to overcome. I state here and now that any large company bonuses over and above a very high salary were earned as my personal commercial input went a long way to the company obtaining lucrative consultancy work, my most notable one being heading a Canadian Hydro project from our Toronto consultancy office for ten years from 1995 to 2004, where we were the project lead.

 

[43066]

Really? I think that you will find that middle and senior level civil servants have rather a lot of input....

I hear civil servants are something of an endangered species these days. JRM has donned his topper, he’s been sharpening his axe and his swivel eyes are looking your way! It’s high time (by his pocket watch) that the civil service was modernised and dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. I’m looking forward to reading about the forthcoming massacre in the Daily Mail! I don’t want to pay a penny piece more in income tax to support the civil service and its Spanish practices.

Sound familiar?!

Ask yourself: who exactly benefits from that kind of attitude?

True enough... Some of us got them when they were relatively rare though....

Well, we none of us can help when we’re born. People with good degrees in proper subjects from non-ex poly universities are still rare.

Albeit nobody ever becomes a nicer person just because they’re well educated…

I know in my part of the world some services are well and truly packed, but this seems to be as much down to reduced timetables and more cancellations than you can waive a Delay Repay claim at than a return to pre-covid levels. Things are still not back to where they were, and once again a prolonged run of industrial action ain't going to make things better. However interestingly the roads are as busy as they were back in 2019, if not busier. In time people will adjust away from the railways, in much the same way they have from buses if they are forced to through strikes and working to rule. Its just how it plays out.

You’re in one of the areas served by TPE
I think? Yep, clearly things are in bad shape in that neck or the woods. The blame can’t be laid at the door of the railway industry, though, when it’s being actively prevented from the delivering the service it’s supposed to by government strategy.

That analysis also applies to the wider picture: the industry is ready and willing to reach agreement on the various disputes that are running and move forward. Ideological obstinacy from the government is preventing that.

Well HMRC might beg to differ....

You know what I mean. The civil service is entirely funded by tax revenue.
The railway requires subsidy but does at least have the benefit of generating significant fare income.

I'm not actually in dispute with you over subsidies, I would much prefer the railways to be a fully publicly owned and run service for the punters. But it isn't, it is expected to try to turn a profit. That's not my decision, but that of the government.

I’m afraid this is where my inner Tory emerges. Quite honestly, I’d rather the railway wasn’t publicly owned. Nationalised industries tend to be inefficient, wasteful and generally unfit for purpose - just look at the NHS! That’s not to say the current franchising system doesn’t have major issues, clearly it does. Albeit I’m not sure the proposed GBR model really changes things materially.

Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic springs to mind.

Don't be so sure folk in IT don't know the wee small hours. Strangely enough a lot of work takes place when the rest of the workforce are in bo-bo-land. Oh and I know you have a beef about people working from home, I still only do two days a week at home because there is no longer the capacity in our office because we have had to employ more people to deliver front-line services. But this is the reality of the situation, and never labour under the impression that we all like it because I for one don't. It has actually caused me more grief than it could ever solve, both financially & emotionally and even pushed my marriage over the edge. So think on before you start slagging people off for having to do such things, most of us had no choice.

I’m genuinely sorry to hear that re. your marriage but, with all due respect, that was said in response to you telling me to “get off my arse”! Frankly that’s rather insulting and utterly laughable given the shift work I do. I physically can’t work from home. I did ask my boss last year if I could sit at home playing train simulator. His response was to swear at me.

Generally I completely agree with you. Working from home isn’t particularly healthy from a mental health perspective. We are, after all, a social species.

You might want to keep a closer eye on the top table, because I've seen it happen in CPSA / PCS where the top brass become more politically motivated than motivated by the best interests of the membership.

Yep. I get the sense that’s an issue with trade unions across the board.

Show me a Tory government that has actively encouraged trade unions.

Probably none, but that doesn’t mean the current government’s approach to IR is typical or correct. I’m not sure there’s much to tell between Labour and the Tories, given that the current Labour leader is apparently anti trade union (ironically, in the one area I might have found some common ground with labour, he yet again disappoints).

So let me get this right, you enjoy watching the "government get stuck in", by which I assume you mean the cutbacks to 2016 levels demanded by the government. Good to know you revel in people potentially losing their jobs, but try to remember that the decision makers behind that are also looking for cutbacks elsewhere. And whilst your industry continues to rely on heavy subsidies, sooner or later that big eye of the Treasury Mordor is going to be looking your industry's way. And you call me naive....

Well that’s pot kettle black!

I take no pleasure in seeing people losing their jobs. I was merely turning the tables on the clear delight in the prospect of railway Ts and Cs being attacked emanating from certain posters. The other civil servant posting on this thread is rather worse than you in that regard.

Mordor. That reminds me of more than one ex girlfriend…

No you are not. You are there to drive trains, and you wonder why people have a go at the industry. Judging by your & other member's comments here the railway industry really is stuck in another era, and one that the travelling public don't look back at with any fond memories.

Yes I know I’m there to drive trains - thanks for reminding me. What do you want me to do? Stick a broom handle up my rear end and I’ll sweep the platform as I’m changing ends? (an expression I heard from a true railwayman with 40 years in)

You mean the people that use your company's services, and keep the need for people to drive the trains? Maybe we should turn up at the stations banging pots & drawing rainbows for you. Would that make you less condescending?

No need for pot banging and rainbows, thanks. I’ll settle for a pay rise. I don’t expect to be liked. I do expect to get paid.

Well that is frankly your own fault, coming across as a grumpy, passenger loathing so & so what else do you expect?

Where have I said I loathe passengers? I’m largely indifferent to them and rarely interact with them. I don’t do a customer facing job so that’s as to be expected.
It’s a little like me accusing you of loathing tax payers…

What do you expect me to do? Perform a dance routine at the end of the platform?

Yep, some 90K+ jobs to go, to get back to 2016 levels even though workloads are much higher, certainly in my little grubby corner of the civil service. Now I know you believe your industry is bullet-proof, but it really isn't. Just look at all the big ticket projects that have been cancelled. What do you suppose will happen when the bigwig civil servants have no more projects to axe, but ministers need more savings from the railways. You see its a bit like creeping death, you might think you are miles from it but sooner or later it will come after you.

If you really don't like being tied to government decisions then you are going to have to find (or form) a company that is willing to p*** good money after bad. Because from where I'm standing the railway industry does not look in good shape, and is hardly having the investors chasing after it.

If a little more was invested in the right places it could be so much better. For example a pay rise to match average wage growth in the economy, and no more political footballism over rest day working arrangements at TPE/XC for example.

“Creeping death” a good way of putting it. The objective of the railway unions is to stave that off for as long as possible. What I hate most about the current situation is that it’ll be the low paid guys at the bottom of the food chain who will end up taking a bullet.

There’s a hell of a lot wrong with this country and it’s getting worse.

Wait until there isn't a economic crisis, or at least until a general election is looming. Chasing the big prize when the government is only halfway through it's term, and now looking for some big hits to restore confidence within its membership is crazy. Quietly they will be looking at the rail unions and thanking their blessings they will potentially have a scapegoat to go after. I know you don't believe it, perhaps through some misguided belief that the Tories you vote for wouldn't dare come after your industry, but I would bet that deep in the corridors of power plans & perhaps even legalisation are being drawn up to hammer the industry, and the unions with. Hell we even know that a "minimum service level" bill is being considered for the industry.

I actually don’t think the government particularly cares about the railway, and that might work in the unions favour. Bunging train drivers and guards a
modest pay increase to shut them up and stave off negative headlines isn’t that expensive in the scheme of things.

The “minimum service level” may well come in, frankly I’m skeptical as to how effective it will really be. Clearly the government is, too. Otherwise it would have been introduced long ago. It isn’t a magic bullet, especially as far as drivers are concerned, when the railway is so reliant on voluntary overtime (and will continue to be).

Stand it all you want, I just think its bad timing. Which has been my point all along, because this is exactly why unions like mine have become toothless. The RMT, ASLEF et al all risk becoming the same.

I’m not sure there’s any choice in the matter. Standing by and doing nothing won’t get better results, so we might as well dig in.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The “minimum service level” may well come in, frankly I’m skeptical as to how effective it will really be. Clearly the government is, too. Otherwise it would have been introduced long ago. It isn’t a magic bullet, especially as far as drivers are concerned, when the railway is so reliant on voluntary overtime (and will continue to be).

Just as a matter of interest, which of any other very large organisations in the UK or the European mainland are reliant upon voluntary overtime as a major part of their trading strategy?

 

[66701GBRF]

How does "minimum service levels" work in practice? If 85% of your staff are in the union and walk, how does the other 15% run more services than what they could cope with?

 

[Wolfie]

What a ridiculous statement to make.
The wages of public sector workers is a mere drop in the ocean compared to the money that has been scammed out of the system by corruption via MPs, ie ppe scandal, Chris graylings ferries, moody contracts with organisations to work privately in public sector.
Stop getting your opinions from Facebook and the daily mail.
If you genuinely think workers asking for a payrise is the issue then you need to give your head a wobble.

I neither read the Daily Heil nor ever have had a Facebook (or indeed Twitter, Snapchat or Tik Tok) account. Some of us are quite capable of forming our own opinions.

Incidentally l would observe that the published evidence rather suggests that your second para is true enough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==

How does "minimum service levels" work in practice? If 85% of your staff are in the union and walk, how does the other 15% run more services than what they could cope with?

Based on what happens in Italy the TUs are obliged to ensure that sufficient staff work in order to meet those obligations and face eye-watering fines if they fail to do so.

 

[irish_rail]

I read nurses want a 16 per cent increase if we are still doing daft career comparisons.

And for a 3 day week remember. OK not all nurses but many of the hospital ones.

 

[Wolfie]

I hear civil servants are something of an endangered species these days. JRM has donned his topper, he’s been sharpening his axe and his swivel eyes are looking your way! It’s high time (by his pocket watch) that the civil service was modernised and dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. I’m looking forward to reading about the forthcoming massacre in the Daily Mail! I don’t want to pay a penny piece more in income tax to support the civil service and its Spanish practices.

Sound familiar?!

Ask yourself: who exactly benefits from that kind of attitude?

Well, we none of us can help when we’re born. People with good degrees in proper subjects from non-ex poly universities are still rare.

Albeit nobody ever becomes a nicer person just because they’re well educated…

The CS has long since been dragged screaming and kicking into the 21st Century. Even at its worst it never had some of the practices l have, all too often gleefully, seen described by staff on here.

One positive of this Tory leadership election is the high probability that Harry Potter the Undertaker will disappear never to be heard from again.

Your comments about education and nice people are of course wholly accurate. I really have no idea what you mean by "proper subjects" but would certainly hope that mathematics, statistics and computing qualify.

I would like to point out to you "Wolfie" that this industrial action is not purely about pay increases for all. My former boss capped my salary six years ago because myself and three others were considered to be too highly salaried compared to a new five year structure that was implemented. Even though my union negotiated a two year deal for 2016 and 2017 my boss withheld the 2017 increase from us. Since then two colleagues have retired and one died in service but I have no idea when I will ever get another rise.

More important than my own situation though (our company has already told us there is no money for us) the recent announcement for rail workers is a 2% rise but with the contract raised from 25 to 40 hours per week. This has the effect of me having to work 20 hours a month for free in exchange for a 2% salary increase. Work that out.

That is why rail workers are so upset and have voted so overwhelmingly for industrial action.
How would you fancy working 5 hours a week for nothing - in a stressful job where the DfT is doing it's damndest to wreck the future of trailways in the UK ?

I fully understand your anger. Mark time on pay after restructuring is something that the CS has done for years. Some years ago all new CS entrants in London, and anyone promoted or changing department, had to work an extra hour a week. At the same time all new entrants countrywide, anyone promoted or changing department, also lost two privilege days. They also suffered cuts in sickness pay and detrimental pension changes (pay more, work longer, get less). There was zero compensation for that. That is the nature of the beast you are facing.

 

[43066]

Just as a matter of interest, which of any other very large organisations in the UK or the European mainland are reliant upon voluntary overtime as a major part of their trading strategy?

I asked this question recently, and the answer was “many”. Of course unpaid overtime is a huge thing in this country - at least it I work a rest day in paid for it!

There’s another question about working hours in the U.K. versus much of Europe. My impression is that we have a rather unhealthy attitude towards work life balance.

As a former consultant you must have pulled some pretty long hours? My personal record was two days working, as a trainee solicitor working on an M&A transaction. Taxi home, shower, change of shirt, straight back to the office in the same taxi.

The legal profession, especially the top end of it, is somewhat notorious for long hours. We talk about train driver salaries of £50-60k on here as if we’re footballers. Newly qualified lawyers at the firm I trained and qualified at go in on £115,000… Partners hover around the £2m mark.

Do I miss it? Hell no. One of the things that sealed my decision to leave was listening to a partner berating a secretary, still turning up to work in his 50s, overweight, narcissistic, overall a thoroughly unpleasant individual… All those millions of pounds earned, he could have been on a beach somewhere, still working (arrogantly) for the ego boost.

I’m healthier and a hell of a lot happier having left. I’d be a lot richer if I’d remained…

Based on what happens in Italy the TUs are obliged to ensure that sufficient staff work in order to meet those obligations and face eye-watering fines if they fail to do so.

You’d love that wouldn’t you. See those dirty railway staff properly shafted…. You have two degrees, right!

Here’s a suggestion: get over yourself.

 

[Wolfie]

I asked this question recently, and the answer was “many”. Of course unpaid overtime is a huge thing in this country - at least it I work a rest day in paid for it!

There’s another question about working hours in the U.K. versus much of Europe. My impression is that we have a rather unhealthy attitude towards work life balance.

As a former consultant you must have pulled some pretty long hours? My personal record was two days working, as a trainee solicitor working on an M&A transaction. Taxi home, shower, change of shirt, straight back to the office in the same taxi.

The legal profession, especially the top end of it, is somewhat notorious for long hours. We talk about train driver salaries of £50-60k on here as if we’re footballers. Newly qualified lawyers at the firm I trained and qualified at go in on £115,000… Partners hover around the £2m mark.

Do I miss it? Hell no. One of the things that sealed my decision to leave was listening to a partner berating a secretary, still turning up to work in his 50s, overweight, narcissistic, overall a thoroughly unpleasant individual. I’m healthier and a hell of a lot happier having left. I’d be a lot richer if I’d remained…



You’d love that wouldn’t you. See those dirty railway staff properly shafted…. You have two degrees, right!

Here’s a suggestion: get over yourself.

Re your penultimate para: no, l actually wouldn't love it at all. A question about how it might be implemented was posted and l answered it as best l could, that is all. For context my ex was of Italian origin (hence my citing that country) and had relatives who worked in the transport sector there.

I absolutely agree your comments about the UK and work-life balance. I learnt that one the hard way after a major health issue. The grave yards are full of indispensable people.

 

[43066]

The CS has long since been dragged screaming and kicking into the 21st Century. Even at its worst it never had some of the practices l have, all too often gleefully, seen described by staff on here.

I rather doubt that.

Which railway practices are you thinking of? Please name them, I suspect you’ve been listening to a few myths and legends…

Your comments about education and nice people are of course wholly accurate. I really have no idea what you mean by "proper subjects" but would certainly hope that mathematics, statistics and computing qualify.

Law at a proper university please. Straight As at A level only….

Maths is a cruise. No books to read, nor essays to write .

(Joking)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==

I absolutely agree your comments about the UK and work-life balance. I learnt that one the hard way after a major health issue.

Well, good. You can see where the railway unions are coming from, then?

 

[Wolfie]

I rather doubt that.

Which railway practices are you thinking of? Please name them, I suspect you’ve been listening to a few myths and legends…



Law at a proper university please. Straight As at A level only….

Maths is a cruise. No books to read, nor essays to write .

(Joking)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==



Well, good. You can see where the railway unions are coming from, then?

If you read my past posts l have never supported anything that would have negative H&S implications, far from it.

Edited to add: l hope that anyone working in the forecast extreme weather over the next few days looks after themselves and comes to no harm.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And for a 3 day week remember. OK not all nurses but many of the hospital ones.

Quite some time ago, when the Covid-19 pandemic was in its first major growth period, a very senior pairing of a consultant and a very senior member of the Royal College of Nursing appeared before a committee panel of MPs to give both chapter and verse on not just the excess pressure that front-line nursing staff were facing and because there was little known about the virus, the danger to life to those hospital staff that could so exist. This was in the period where the full uniform protection was not yet in operation. I believe that death statistics amongst front-line medical staff became a matter of discussion a year later on certain committees.

 

[43066]

If you read my past posts l have never supported anything that would have negative H&S implications, far from it.

Not sure what your getting at there. It doesn’t really bare any relevance to what I’ve written?

 

[dctraindriver]

And for a 3 day week remember. OK not all nurses but many of the hospital ones.

They might only be working a 3 day week, however they’re at work for over 12 hours, more like 13. Then commuting time. My wife is a nurse. She leaves for work 06.30 and isn’t home until about 20.00. She’s burnt out. As are most of her colleagues so while it sounds great on paper, she’s more knackered than me whose working stupid hour shifts. My jobs a walk in the park compared to nursing. Just have a think on that with your 3 day remark.

 

[Need2]

Quite some time ago, when the Covid-19 pandemic was in its first major growth period, a very senior pairing of a consultant and a very senior member of the Royal College of Nursing appeared before a committee panel of MPs to give both chapter and verse on not just the excess pressure that front-line nursing staff were facing and because there was little known about the virus, the danger to life to those hospital staff that could so exist. This was in the period where the full uniform protection was not yet in operation. I believe that death statistics amongst front-line medical staff became a matter of discussion a year later on certain committees.

What were the statistics for frontline deaths?

 

[Bald Rick]

More important than my own situation though (our company has already told us there is no money for us) the recent announcement for rail workers is a 2% rise but with the contract raised from 25 to 40 hours per week. This has the effect of me having to work 20 hours a month for free in exchange for a 2% salary increase. Work that out.

which company do you work for?

I‘ve never heard of a 25hour week before.

 

[Exscrew]

which company do you work for?

I‘ve never heard of a 25hour week before.

I believe it was a mistype and was supposed to be 35

 

[43066]

Delete please.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What were the statistics for frontline deaths?

I was not privy to the findings that were discussed during those committees, just was told they formed part of the discussions. You will of course be aware that certain items discussed in these committees are never put into the public domain.

 

[Bald Rick]

I believe it was a mistype and was supposed to be 35

ok - but the question still stands, I’m not aware of any company proposing an extension of the working week from 35-40 hours for no change in pay.

 

[Wolfie]

Not sure what your getting at there. It doesn’t really bare any relevance to what I’ve written?

I thought that you were focussing on the potential health implications of some of the possible changes. Sorry if l misunderstood.

 

[43066]

I thought that you were focussing on the potential health implications of some of the possible changes. Sorry if l misunderstood.

Specifically what did I say that made you think that?

Methinks you’ve got the wrong end of the stick.