Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Annetts key]

The market for financing stock can be very competitive and it is fairly embarrassing for the DfT that OG’s seem to get better deals for leasing than they can!

Sorry, OG’s? Meaning?

 

[Dryce]

A couple of solid weeks would hit hard at the time, but fade in the memory quickly amongst passengers once services are restored.

The question is would it hit hard that it would have any effect?

And the oher thing to consider is how low the freight business is for the railway. Strike action just reminds businesses as to why they shouldn't rely on the railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==

I thought some comments
along those lines had been made earlier (many weeks ago) emphasising that just a few days upset won't change anything.
Surely, a 2-4 week strike is far more likely to generate a response from the management/Govt ? - they're not likely to be all that bothered otherwise.

Well the problem with any strlke of that duration is that not only does it lose the union members a large slug of their income but it may also risks demonstrating that the railway is not as important as some of its advocates state it is.

The shift in the last two years is that a chunk of the workforce learned to not to travel - and a chunk of that chunk is either still not travelling or has reduced travel for work.

So try a 4 week shutown. What's the outcome? Maybe the public scream and shout to cause the politicians to get it all restarted ..... or maybe while the unions wait for the outcry to get it all resinstated at any cost they end up listening as the wind blows the tumble weed though the stations and along the deserted tracks.

My view is simple. No additional taxpayers money. If the railways operating as a business want or need to pay ther staff more they either find the revenue elsewhere to increase the payroll or make some decisions as to how the payroll is reorganised.

 

[HSTEd]

No pay for weeks or months will run the risk of staff starting to cross the picket line out of financial necessity.

The union can't hope to keep up action like that over the long term.

And in a post coronavirus world short railway disruptions are not the political hot potato they once were.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

There seems to be a question as to how vital the UK Railways are and therefore how effective a strike is in causing disruption and thereby putting pressure on management to settle.

It is a given that the pandemic has resulted in more workers WFH. Of course there is a large segment of the population than cannot WFH due to the nature of their job. There is another segment who may be WFH for now but there may be movement to start returning to the office at least part time if not full time for various reasons e.g. difficulty of coordinating tasks, loss of team cohesiveness etc.

In addition there is still the leisure market plus tourism which of course has more options not being tied to the 0705 to Waterloo and can consider other ways of getting around. However for tourists one of the attractions of visiting the UK is the ease of public transport compared to the US, Canada or even Australia. Tourists have other options for destinations and a country whose public transport is in an uproar may become a less desirable one.

So it seems to this outside observer that one should be careful about saying a strike will be less effective since the Railways are less important than they used to be.

 

[Wolfie]

I don't think the odd day here or there is going to be effective. There needs to be something like a fortnight-long or maybe even month-long strike to really get the message across to the government that the unions won't back down lightly. It's time they showed the government just how powerful they are and bring the entire railway system to a grinding halt (pun intended).

EDIT: Yes, it won't be pretty but then neither will railway employees being unable to heat their homes or put food on the table and the latter should be the priority.

Really? The TUs thought that they ran the country in the 1970s and that brought Margaret Thatcher into power and a whole lot of anti-TU legislation. The same could very easily happen again.

The 1980s saw the miners starved to defeat. I am sure that many of the candidates for the Tory leadership, particularly Liz Truss who reportedly sees herself as the new Thatcher, would have zero hesitation in repeating that.

 

[the sniper]

I'd almost forgotten about the miners, thinking about nurses.

 

[43066]

I'm pretty certain I have never suggested such a thing, but I'll try to answer your question as best as I can.

You realise that was a rhetorical question? I wasn’t *actually* interested in your inevitably tortuous and long winded views on railway franchising - it’s an incredibly dull subject at the best of times.

Look I am no fan of how the GP system works, but they are not public sector. They are private businesses contracted by the NHS.

As am I. I’m an employee of a private business contracted to provide railway services. Why am I suddenly public sector?

Good to hear, so I assume this will include heading out to the Ukraine to end the Russian's attempt to invade, and perhaps convince the Chinese to get back to normal and resume their normal trade. Oh and while you are at it, perhaps nip back in time and undo all the covid based restrictions that has cost this country alone in the region of half a trillion quid.

The point here is that your industry does not exist in some sandbox, especially when the government paid to keep you guys working trains instead of sending you home, and imposing potential cuts in income of 20% or more.

You really are talking nonsense here. Heading out to the Ukraine? I don’t suppose so.

It might involve going on strike.

This industry absolutely does exist in a sand box (do you mean sand pit?) We have passengers, not “customers”, how ever badly we treat them, they always inevitably come back.

Like a boomerang. Or cancer.

As for the ineffectiveness of my union, well you are completely right they are as much use nationally as a bag of dead badgers. And this is because of the reasons above. From when I first joined back in 1987 the union constantly engaged in battle after battle with the government of the time until such point that what I would describe as "member fatigue" set in. You see my union, or at least a big part of it doesn't have the luxury of well above average pay to soften the blow of industrial action. Indeed for as long as they could, the CPSA would endeavour to pay strike pay because the majority of members simply couldn't afford to take more than a day or two off in any given period. And that I am afraid to tell you is the reality for many, many people. So instead of slagging people off for not simply downing tools, perhaps you might want to consider why the might not be able to in the first place.

I’ve never heard of the CPSA, are they a chocolate fireguard taking shop? I bet they are. You’ve heard of ASLEF and the RMT. They’re a bunch of frustrated railway staff who have the balls to go out….

(I was 4 in 1987, sorry couldn’t resist ).

Your union just sounds like an absolute waste of time. Why would anyone bother paying money to belong to it?

Strangely enough I am not surprised. However so long as your industry leans more and more on public finances then you expectations may not be met.

We’re leaning less and less on public finances now as ticket revenue increases. Less than the civil service is, that’s for sure.

I think you are vastly overstating the importance of the rail unions in today's political environment.

Important to me. I want my:

Dirty.
Sexy.
Money.

sometimes as a union representative you have to learn to read the room.

But, as per your own admission, your union was as effective as a “bag of dead badgers”. Why on Earth do you think you’re in a position to advise others on these matters.

ASLEF can be corrupt at times - they’re mighty effective. More so than the RMT. Let’s face it, for all the posturing, many of us vote Tory .

Your view has shifted because some people have questioned the wisdom of industrial action in the current climate on these forums? If that is the case, then I feel you do not have the right motives I'm sorry to say.

Unfortunately that is the nature of my personality, yes. If I’m pushed against, I push back, and don’t back down.

I’m a qualified solicitor, qualified train driver, qualified pilot. Don’t let that imply I haven’t been dragged away in a police van when I *really* fall out with someone.

Like it or not, your job is to deliver a service to the punters first, then have your tea when you are able to.

Is it really? Thanks. What other insights can you give me about my job (that you’ve never done)?

I love my job a little bit too much. I enjoy hammering through stations at 120mph. I enjoy waving at kids on the platform. Never gets old tbh. Privileged and proud to do it.

Be careful what you wish for, as you just may get it. I kind of get the impression that you believe that your industry is bullet proof, that it could not possibly be decimated the way the civil service has been over the years. Well I hate to be the one to break it to you, but unless your wages / benefits / pensions are fully funded & approved by the private sector & making money for investors, with no intervention from HM Government, then get ready for a nasty surprise.....

It sort of is bullet proof. Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses.

Sorry, but they won't. And that is the centre of the problem for you as I see it. You somehow believe that your industry will just chug on the way it always has, but it won't.

I suspect it will continue largely as it is now. Interested to hear what qualifies you to say otherwise?

Indeed, full of grumpy gits who refuse to move on from the time when people were grumpy gits....

No one grumpier then me I can assure you.

Christ on a bike, you like an argument don’t you?!

 

[Bantamzen]

You realise that was a rhetorical question? I wasn’t *actually* interested in your inevitably tortuous and long winded views on railway franchising - it’s an incredibly dull subject at the best of times.

But also highly relevant in the context of this dispute.

As am I. I’m an employee of a private business contracted to provide railway services. Why am I suddenly public sector?

Because the above mentioned franchise system is broken, and private companies are throwing in the towel because they can't make them work. Its either that or a change in career.

You really are talking nonsense here. Heading out to the Ukraine? I don’t suppose so.

It might involve going on strike.

This industry absolutely does exist in a sand box (do you mean sand pit?) We have passengers, not “customers”, how ever badly we treat them, they always inevitably come back.

Like a boomerang. Or cancer.

Will they though? Let's face it the commuter market has changed with a lot more people working from home more often, and the leisure market is much more volatile especially when inflation is rampant. Throw in a load of disruption through industrial action, and a generally crap service we are getting at the moment and a lot of people might just decide to stuff rail transport once and for all. So unless you can find a multi-billionaire happy to pay for a giant train set indefinitely, you might want to rethink that view.

I’ve never heard of the CPSA, are they a chocolate fireguard taking shop? I bet they are. You’ve heard of ASLEF and the RMT. They’re a bunch of frustrated railway staff who have the balls to go out….

(I was 4 in 1987, sorry couldn’t resist ).

Your union just sounds like an absolute waste of time. Why would anyone bother paying money to belong to it?

Its either that or no union. And besides the reps on the ground still do a good job by and large, its just the wannabe politicians around the top table and those that seek their place there that are sodding useless.

We’re leaning less and less on public finances now as ticket revenue increases. Less than the civil service is, that’s for sure.

Well duh!! The civil service is kind of a public service so is inevitably going to be publicly funded. The fact that the rail industry, or more precisely the companies that operate it having been struggling to make it work at all. And that should have sent alarm bells throughout your sector.

Important to me. I want my:

Dirty.
Sexy.
Money.

And that's fair enough. But if you want mine, or indeed anyone else's money for playing big boy train sets then get your arse out of your living room, put down your tea and run a bloody service that we paying mugs can rely on.

But, as per your own admission, your union was as effective as a “bag of dead badgers”. Why on Earth do you think you’re in a position to advise others on these matters.

Because I've seen what happens when unions try to bring down governments.

(Spoiler alert, it doesn't end well for the unions)

ASLEF can be corrupt at times - they’re mighty effective. More so than the RMT. Let’s face it, for all the posturing, many of us vote Tory .

Which quite frankly sums things up very neatly. Union activists voting for the very party ideologically opposed to a unionised workforce.

The words turkey & Christmas spring to mind for some reason....

Unfortunately that is the nature of my personality, yes. If I’m pushed against, I push back, and don’t back down.

I’m a qualified solicitor, qualified train driver, qualified pilot. Don’t let that imply I haven’t been dragged away in a police van when I *really* fall out with someone.

I'm not sure what you are implying here? I trust that isn't a threat?

Is it really? Thanks. What other insights can you give me about my job (that you’ve never done)?

So if your job isn't to deliver a service to paying punters, what exactly is it?

I love my job a little bit too much. I enjoy hammering through stations at 120mph. I enjoy waving at kids on the platform. Never gets old tbh. Privileged and proud to do it.

Just remember that occasionally you might have to actually pick up their kids & parents and take them where they want to go. Because you'll find less kids waving at you if you don't.

It sort of is bullet proof. Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses.

Oh dear, do you really believe how that is how it works. Well allow me to let you in on a little secret. Governments tend not to like losing money, and tend to start swinging the axe in the direction of areas that haemorrhage cash.

I suspect it will continue largely as it is now. Interested to hear what qualifies you to say otherwise?

Nothing qualifies me to say otherwise. It's just glaringly obvious what's coming.

No one grumpier then me I can assure you.

Finally, something we can agree on.

Christ on a bike, you like an argument don’t you?!

Yep. Got that from my time as a union rep....

 

[Snow1964]

So govt needs to see strength of feeling from workforce that they need to allow operators to put at least 5% on the table to attempt to move negotiations forward but i suspect that won't happen with govt in semi paralysis.

The Government being in semi paralysis is why it is completely pointless striking in July and August.

The top figure currently allowed by Government is probably already offered (probably with conditions), and until Government returns to normal business and a new cabinet is in place (September ?) the figure won’t change.

It should be obvious to everyone that if Government didn’t care and do anything on the 3 strike days whilst it was working, it is hardly going to spring into life and offer more money whilst it is absent and on holiday.

 

[TheBigD]

Sorry, OG’s? Meaning?

Owning groups I suspect. Generally the likes of First, National Express, virgin etc etc

 

[irish_rail]

The top figure currently allowed by Government is probably already offered (probably with conditions), and until Government returns to normal business and a new cabinet is in place (September ?) the figure won’t change.

Need to take issue with this as as a GWR driver the top figure offered to us is zero. So forgive me for not rushing to accept such an offer.

 

[Falcon1200]

Yes, nowadays most staff only see it as a job. This is different to how it was back on BR before privatisation.

I worked with a number of staff on BR whose only objective was to do as little as they could get away with and finish as early as possible, and a number of staff who treated the passenger as nothing but a nuisance, something which IMHO did change, for the better, post-privatisation. Which is not of course to say that everything is better now, far from it, but the BR era was very far from being the Golden Age of Rail.

 

[dk1]

I worked with a number of staff on BR whose only objective was to do as little as they could get away with and finish as early as possible, and a number of staff who treated the passenger as nothing but a nuisance, something which IMHO did change, for the better, post-privatisation. Which is not of course to say that everything is better now, far from it, but the BR era was very far from being the Golden Age of Rail.

Yes I was with BR from 1984 and it was always get away with what you can & pretty much the same today. Most (not all) drivers I work with look at when they can get away whether it be through a cut out or a cancellation. Should it be the latter I have never heard anyone even mention the passengers involved.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Owning groups I suspect. Generally the likes of First, National Express, virgin etc etc

Somewhat ironic.Where are NX trains and Virgin trains now ?
Yeah. Rail was too awkward and didn't give what the shareholders expected.

In my view the rail unions absolutely have to fight the current attack. Running the railway is an expensive game but that can be laid at the feet of John Major who released the privatisation genie from it's bottle back in 1993. Margaret Thatcher wouldn't contemplate it and kept shuffing railway privatisation back to the bottom of the pile. The real crazy part was Major privatising the infrastructure first, in the form of Railtrack. He went about the task completely the wrong way, as the morph of Railtrack into Network Rail has proved.

Anyway, the railway trade unions need to think very vey carefully about their game plan. RMT have peaked way too early with the series of strikes but I suspect Mick Lynch felt no other solution. As has already been said the country shuts down politically from July to September - especially without a Prime Minister in charge to lead decisions. Rishi Sunak wasn't prepared to fundthe railway industry any more than absolutely. But now he has gone Boris has found 5% for the public sector workers.

The concern I have is the bile Peter Wilkinson has for the industry, particularly the drivers. His outburst at a meeting in Croydon a few years ago exposed his hatred, and Wilkinson is still a senior in Whitehall. I am confident he will try and implement "fire and rehire" if he can get away with it.

So watch this space and don't think ASLEF are invincible. Wilkinson has been waiting a few years for this after having his wings clipped over Croydon.

 

[Bantamzen]

But now he has gone Boris has found 5% for the public sector workers.

Erm he hasn't yet. It was only reported the the Financial Times, and there is no sign that this will ever become a reality.

 

[Shrop]

ECML electrification and modernisation was authorised along with numerous Southern extensions and voluminous amounts of new rolling stock so despite her antipathy towards the industry it wasn't abandoned. Oh and not forgetting she was against privatising it.

You could actually say we are living in a paradox when they are so supportive of HS2 and IRP yet the existing network is just drifting along

I could say quite a bit in response to these comments but it would be going off topic. Suffice to say that a reluctant interest never bodes well.

Yes I was with BR from 1984 and it was always get away with what you can & pretty much the same today. Most (not all) drivers I work with look at when they can get away whether it be through a cut out or a cancellation. Should it be the latter I have never heard anyone even mention the passengers involved.

This epitomises the point that I've made several times. Of course there are drivers and other rail staff who have a genuine enthusiasm for their industry, but the fact that the industry is also riddled with those who care little or nothing for their passengers is seriously unhealthy. Management ought to be on top of this, but when they're also riddled with staff who see the railways as nothing more than a stepping stone to furthering their own career and their own personal gain, then the rail industry will always struggle.

Then there's the (appalling) Government attitude that people could and probably should have cars an an alternative means of travel, so rail passengers aren't worth much of their time. This all combines to make the withdrawal of rail services through strikes, nothing like the strong tactic that many seem to believe it is. And sorry, no I don't have an alternative suggestion, but I'm not convinced that striking is all that effective. It's likely to hurt passengers with genuine travel needs most, while possibly not having anything like the effect on management and Government that is claimed by the unions.

 

[XIX7007177]

I read nurses want a 16 per cent increase if we are still doing daft career comparisons.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Sorry, OG’s? Meaning?

Owning groups, the likes of Stagecoach, Arriva, Go-Ahead, First.

 

[Lancy99]

I read nurses want a 16 per cent increase if we are still doing daft career comparisons.

Greedy so and so’s

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Greedy so and so’s

The proverbial bandwagon is now being regularly jumped on. But human nature is what it is, so who is surprised?

 

[Bantamzen]

I could say quite a bit in response to these comments but it would be going off topic. Suffice to say that a reluctant interest never bodes well.

This epitomises the point that I've made several times. Of course there are drivers and other rail staff who have a genuine enthusiasm for their industry, but the fact that the industry is also riddled with those who care little or nothing for their passengers is seriously unhealthy. Management ought to be on top of this, but when they're also riddled with staff who see the railways as nothing more than a stepping stone to furthering their own career and their own personal gain, then the rail industry will always struggle.

The problem being that it is likely many of the management come from the same culture, which if the suggestion that there is a widespread "couldn't care less about the punters" attitude could explain some decision making across TOCs.

Then there's the (appalling) Government attitude that people could and probably should have cars an an alternative means of travel, so rail passengers aren't worth much of their time. This all combines to make the withdrawal of rail services through strikes, nothing like the strong tactic that many seem to believe it is. And sorry, no I don't have an alternative suggestion, but I'm not convinced that striking is all that effective. It's likely to hurt passengers with genuine travel needs most, while possibly not having anything like the effect on management and Government that is claimed by the unions.

This government has never really seen the railways favourably. They might come up with big ticket projects, but look also how often these are scaled back and even abandoned. It should come as no surprise if a prolonged dispute with the rail unions leads to retaliation from them.

I read nurses want a 16 per cent increase if we are still doing daft career comparisons.

Its completely unrealistic in the current climate, but beautifully demonstrates the cycle of pay claims can escalate when some areas of the public sector make claim to or receive large pay rises.

 

[Wolfie]

Greedy so and so’s

Perhaps, when you or your family next need treatment, there may not be one of those "greedy so and so's" available. The number of people in this country who value railway workers above nurses, other perhaps than railway workers and their families, could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

 

[Lancy99]

The proverbial bandwagon is now being regularly jumped on. But human nature is what it is, so who is surprised?

Perhaps, when you or your family next need treatment, there may not be one of those "greedy so and so's" available. The number of people in this country who value railway workers above nurses, other perhaps than railway workers and their families, could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

As a train driver who’s prepared to strike to get a fair increase in salary it was said very tongue in cheek. This place is unbelievable

 

[yorksrob]

The question is would it hit hard that it would have any effect?

And the oher thing to consider is how low the freight business is for the railway. Strike action just reminds businesses as to why they shouldn't rely on the railway.

I think it would have a more direct effect on the Government, whereas the long drawn out intermittent action wouldn't as much.

 

[Wolfie]

As a train driver who’s prepared to strike to get a fair increase in salary it was said very tongue in cheek. This place is unbelievable

As a taxpayer who isn't prepared to pay one cent for your "fair increase", and who will be getting 2% at best myself, deal with it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==

I think it would have a more direct effect on the Government, whereas the long drawn out intermittent action wouldn't as much.

Personally l would tie railway funding directly to the state of the general economy. The more damage the strikes do the less money the railway gets!

 

[Carlisle]

but I'm not convinced that striking is all that effective.

The thousands who participated in the Scotrail, Northern, GWR & WMR DCO disputes a few years ago likely consider them an outright success given the TOCs capitulated entirely.

 

[Lancy99]

As a taxpayer who isn't prepared to pay one cent for your "fair increase", and who will be getting 2% at best myself, deal with it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==


Personally l would tie railway funding directly to the state of the general economy. The more damage the strikes do the less money the railway gets!

Push yourself a little harder and get something different. It’s worth it.

 

[66701GBRF]

As a taxpayer who isn't prepared to pay one cent for your "fair increase", and who will be getting 2% at best myself, deal with it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2022 ==

Hate to break it to you but if the government use public money to fund pay rises you won't have a choice, so I suspect it is you that will have to "deal with it".

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Same with Brighton early this morning,; I was there until 10am and the TL trains from London were rammed solid. God help those pax on 30th July; I've had to rearrange my trip on that day

IIRC TL weren't among the companies whose drivers voted to strike.

 

[Shrop]

The thousands who participated in the Scotrail, Northern, GWR & WMR DCO disputes a few years ago likely consider them an outright success as the TOCs capitulated entirely.

But does this really provide a strong enough template for success now? A lot has happened since then. Is the objective today to get the TOCs to capitulate, or Government?