Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[yorksrob]

I have friends in the North West who still use the train, however they are showing fatigue with the whole situation. They would have taken the train most times for leisure travel, however they're now down to half.

It's not just the strikes though, it's the whole reliability situation with Avanti and TPE that's making the railway unattractive for them.

 

[Starmill]

Once that happens passengers will just carry on as if nothing had happened. Which has always been the case

This is not the case. It's also once again an attitude firmly rooted in hubris. It's bad attitudes at work, such as yours, that are part of the cause of the current dispute.

 

[mandub]

You could equally say the sooner some rail staff and their union stop living in some bizarre fantasy world the sooner this will all end. Some of the aspirations on this thread are laughable with people seeing a pay rise in double digits as achievable. Does anybody really think the government is going to offer NHS staff and the police around 4-5% but offer people who open and close the doors on trains twice that?

Speaking broadly for my TOC/depot and for drivers only....

No one expects a double digit pay rise. Aslef will negotiate from a certain position as best they know how. But I'm sure everyone from the DfT down know that Aslef and the vast majority of drivers would accept 4.5%-5.0%. That's what ScotRail drivers accepted and I'd bet all TOC's drivers given a vote would do so also.

 

[NI 271]

Why do you care so much anyway? You’ve said you don’t like the railway and won’t be using it anymore. Unless you’re just trying to provoke a reaction?

He also spent several weeks proudly telling everyone he wouldn't be affected by the strikes. I can't imagine a point in my life where I'd be spending countless hours over many weeks mashing a keyboard over something that doesn't affect me.

Best just not to feed the troll.

 

[Starmill]

I honestly can’t see it being any different now than it has been. Most people have had cars in the last 38 years & still they come back to rail. It will all work itself out until the next time.

But this isn't true is it. Some passenger services have been cut permanently in recent times because people aren't using them in sufficient numbers. Just to offer a handful of examples, the second train each hour between Buxton and Manchester, the semi-fast Dundee - Edinburgh services and all services between Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy, also around half of services between Reading and Birmingham. I wouldn't expect these to be returning; they were not intensively used when they existed, so will be bottom of the pile. Far more service enhancements which were committed to have been dropped, likely permanently. This means that the staff who would have been recruited to work these do not now exist.

 

[Smidster]

There could be a strike lasting a fortnight, or a month, or two months on alternating days. At the moment there's deadlock so it won't be likely to 'move the dial'.

Historically it has been common for strike action to be of an indeterminate duration. This is rather less likely but still possible.

Agreed - However much the RMT shout there comes a point, which I think we are already near, where the offer is the offer and unless the RMT are willing to make significant movement then you are just giving more and money back to your employers and the Treasury.

October seems a strange choice given that will be just after energy prices have skyrocketed again. Not only must that surely impact the ability for long strikes based on financial implications but this Winter is going to be so bad for the country in general that the rail sector is going to be right at the bottom of the Governments attention.

And again - You need to stop taking people for granted...you have already seen people not come back after Covid and the more you strike the more damage you do to leisure as well - especially given the economics right now.

 

[Dryce]

It's of no concern to the Unions , who are only acting in the interests of members. I personally see strikes continuing indefinitely. That's the reality.

This is where major negotiations get more complicated outside public sector - where a genuinely commercial business will include investment commitments into the deal and the unions will trade short term interests and long term intersts of the mebers.

The nearest we get to this in the current situation with rail is the unions wanting to ensure there are no compulsory redundancies - which is an inherent recognition that there may well be risks for the members looking ahead - whether that be loss of customers / revenue - or government funding limits - or both.

 

[mandub]

Again speaking as a driver only......what do people on here who say "don't go on strike" propose we should do....

Is it that we should accept no pay rise this year and carry on working normally? Maybe just this one year and see how things are next year??
What if there's no pay offer next year either?
Or the year after that?
How long living with pay freezes would be enough?
And what about the coming changes to T&C, extra weekend work and all the other looming productivity issues?
Just say yes to everything?

Is there any evidence that there would then be a pay off down the line for the railway if drivers forgo any pay increases for x number of years and agree to broad changes to working conditions?
Will the govt say thank you and announce that services will be returning to pre Covid levels due to pay restraint & productivity gains?

I understand the financial squeeze on the railway and I somewhat share the existential worry for its future.
And we are all taking a hit to real pay and have been since 2020 and that's fair enough.

But I don't see any provable correlation between us completely rolling over and the railway then being saved or protected.

My best guess is that the govt will take whatever savings it can get from wherever it can get them and it'll be pursuing them agressively in the short/medium term. And that the future of the railway in the UK will not be determined by drivers pay awards or otherwise. They'll take zero pay award if they could get it and continue with their plans. And they'll grudgingly accept a 4.5% pay rise if they have to and also continue with their plans.

Drivers can't 'save' the railway with their actions here. But we aren't going to kill it either.

 

[Fokx]

This is not the case. It's also once again an attitude firmly rooted in hubris. It's bad attitudes at work, such as yours, that are part of the cause of the current dispute.

In what way has a bad attitude caused a national rail strike?

 

[Starmill]

In what way has a bad attitude caused a national rail strike?

Because, as I have already explained, a significant part of the reason why there's no reasonable pay offer is because the industry is in financial crisis. A large driver of this underperformance is industry hubris, from management level downwards. Other industries which are much better focused on customer satisfaction have had faster recoveries.

 

[High Dyke]

I've been telling myself that it's worth paying a lot extra to take the train to work so I don't have to concentrate but I tried driving on my last trip to work. It was an 30 mins quicker door to door each way and £23 less all in. Not sure I'll bother with the train much more if this continues. I'm not really interested in the RMTs crusade against the government.

Have you taken into account cost of fuel, tyres, car insurance and depreciation for the wear and tear on the car?

Hull Trains appears to have some industrial relations issues at present as well. Those arent anything to do with Whitehall either.

I believe industrial action announced on their operation for various dates during the next couple of months.

Cars are a thing.

Indeed they are. I use mine because there's no trains to get me to work; and why? It's because I have to be at work to allow the trains to run.

Nobody enjoys going on strike (it costs a great deal of money) and nobody enjoys annoying passengers - just ask my guard colleagues who are the ones who get spat at and assaulted.

Exactly. The wife was sexually assaulted by a passenger a couple of years whilst carrying her revenue duties. She shouldn't be expected to have to suffer that experience.

I get the sense I’m wasting my breath here…

Indeed.

 

[Fokx]

Because, as I have already explained, a significant part of the reason why there's no reasonable pay offer is because the industry is in financial crisis. A large driver of this underperformance is industry hubris, from management level downwards. Other industries which are much better focused on customer satisfaction have had faster recoveries.

But the goal of the public sector isn’t profitability, it’s public service. We aren’t exactly cashing in from the Emergency Servcies or Education services who are to receive a rise without changes to terms and conditions so why is the mentality to treat public transport any different? (Rhetorical)

 

[Starmill]

But the goal of the public sector isn’t profitability, it’s public service. We aren’t exactly cashing in from the Emergency Servcies or Education services who are to receive a rise without changes to terms and conditions so why is the mentality to treat public transport any different? (Rhetorical)

Yes indeed. And the quality and value for money of the public service being provided by the railway industry is very poor indeed.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I was on a train on your patch yesterday. Between Reading the London it was like being on a (pre Covid) rush hour tube train. Enormous numbers travelling from the West Country.

I was at Paddington on Saturday for an hour or so (admittedly there was disruption), again massive volumes passing through the station.

And all trains arriving/departing Brighton and along the West Coastway on Saturday were packed solid... Full and standing. Same last Saturday. My (late) commutes home in the week; every seat taken.

I don't think the railway will be going away anytime soon

 

[Dryce]

But I don't see any provable correlation between us completely rolling over and the railway then being saved or protected.

I think most onlookers can understand the dilemma at work for those working in the sector.

At the same time those of us in the private sector who are exposed to the same economic pressures without the expectation that the taxpayer will be expected to wave a magic wand are also not so sympathetic if its the taxpayer paying for the increases and also covering the risks of any reduction in revenue. If we raise our payroll we have to fund it from our client revenue - that revenue won't go up just because we demand the clients pay more - and in pushing for increases we may lose even more client revenue - and then the payroll would come under scrutiny.

If the RMT and ASLEF want to increase the cost of the payroll then they should have to accept the increase is paid for from commercial revenue and the associate risks. (And morally by doing so if revenue increases they can argue in future that their members deserve an additional reward because they share the risks of the downside).

 

[ar10642]

Have you taken into account cost of fuel, tyres, car insurance and depreciation for the wear and tear on the car?

Yes, they are not going to add up to *anything like* £23 extra per return trip, sorry.

I've paid a premium to not have to concentrate for a couple of hours, but this week will be the second time the railway has made itself unavailable when I've needed to go to the office.

Indeed they are. I use mine because there's no trains to get me to work; and why? It's because I have to be at work to allow the trains to run.

What's your point?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2022 ==

And all trains arriving/departing Brighton and along the West Coastway on Saturday were packed solid... Full and standing. Same last Saturday. My (late) commutes home in the week; every seat taken.

I don't think the railway will be going away anytime soon

I don't think they'll ever close lines like that, but how about Uckfield (already down to 1 train every 2 hours off peak), Hastings - Ashford, North Downs line, Redhill - Tonbridge. Loads of other examples around the country.

 

[43096]

Have you taken into account cost of fuel, tyres, car insurance and depreciation for the wear and tear on the car?

Literally no-one does this when deciding whether to use the train or car. At most, they will look at rail ticket price vs car fuel and parking. Mention of insurance and depreciation is irrelevant - it’s a fixed cost of ownership regardless of how much use you make of the car.

 

[berwicksfinest]

That would only be true if there were no passengers. The service is going to unavailable as a result of these ongoing strikes so actually it has everything to do with passengers. Unless you're a freight driver your whole job only exists because of passengers.

I'll bite, and I'm sure my railway family would say the same, we roll over look at our alarm clock see the silly o'clock time and think, "nah i'm gonna wind ar10642 up today"

You've quite clearly have an axe to grind with the railway fraternity, SO "what industry do you work in"

 

[ar10642]

I'll bite, and I'm sure my railway family would say the same, we roll over look at our alarm clock see the silly o'clock time and think, "nah i'm gonna wind ar10642 up today"

You've quite clearly have an axe to grind with the railway fraternity, SO "what industry do you work in"

I just want you to do your jobs without dragging everyone else into your pay dispute. Apparently that's too much to ask.

 

[berwicksfinest]

I just want you to do your jobs without dragging everyone else into your pay dispute. Apparently that's too much to ask.

AGAIN what industry do you work in ???

 

[ar10642]

AGAIN what industry do you work in ???

Office based, private sector, none of your business.

 

[berwicksfinest]

Office based, private sector, none of your business.

And yet you're quite free on tell my passenger colleagues how they should conduct their business! I suggest you practise what you preach and mind your business

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I don't think they'll ever close lines like that, but how about Uckfield (already down to 1 train every 2 hours off peak), Hastings - Ashford, North Downs line, Redhill - Tonbridge. Loads of other examples around the country.

I don't know about Uckfield but closing lines that service Hastings, Ashford, Redhill and Tonbridge ?? Are you serious ?? And why have the North Downs line got "new" trains? I don't know the numbers but its a good link between Tonbridge and Redhill and a diversionary route for trains when the line between Tonbridge and Sevenoaks is blocked

 

[Horizon22]

Not universally, I don't think. I think some London suburban services don't have a second person, but I'm not sure.

The vast majority of suburban London services don’t and haven’t for 20+ years. SWR is a bit of an exception in this regard.

 

[High Dyke]

What's your point?

Public transport is of no use for me to get to work. Driving is my only option.

 

[43066]

Literally no-one does this when deciding whether to use the train or car. At most, they will look at rail ticket price vs car fuel and parking. Mention of insurance and depreciation is irrelevant - it’s a fixed cost of ownership regardless of how much use you make of the car.

He also mentioned fuel. Very much a variable cost and one which has hit record highs of late.

 

[Julia1985]

You can suggest what you like, I'm not interested in what you think.

The fact you're replying confirms the opposite

 

[footprints]

If the internal rumour mill is correct, there could well be a whole week of strikes first week in October. It coincides with the Tory Party conference in Birmingham. I could actually see that happening

In which case, the Tories will be chauffeured up to Birmingham, most people will work from home or make alternative travel arrangements. The only losers will be RMT members when they receive their pay packets at the end of the month.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't know about Uckfield but closing lines that service Hastings, Ashford, Redhill and Tonbridge ?? Are you serious ?? And why have the North Downs line got "new" trains? I don't know the numbers but its a good link between Tonbridge and Redhill and a diversionary route for trains when the line between Tonbridge and Sevenoaks is blocked

It certainly isn't out of the question for those lines to close given they are among the lines with the least traffic in the South East, have modernisation costs to bear and no one should be complacent about where the cuts would fall if the treasury numbers need to add up.

 

[Gostav]

He also mentioned fuel. Very much a variable cost and one which has hit record highs of late.

But quite a lot of people think it's just due to the war and it will going end anyway.