Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[43066]

Apart from previous strikes & the like, I always think of the aftermath of Hatfield in 2000. Month upon month of a decimated long distance train service across the entire UK with hundreds of miles of 20mph running due to GCC. A few decent advertising campaigns & some eye catching offers soon had the public back on board in their droves & numbers along with revenue soon went back into growth again.

I’d forgotten that. Agreed that’s a better example!

 

[Starmill]

Whilst previous strikes might not have affected passengers' habits of using the railways, this is a bit different now. If there are many strikes, then commuters mostly have the infrastructure to work from home now, employers will get ever more used to it, and when the likely 10% ticket price rises for next year are announced, many will just not see the price Vs reliability as worth it, and will likely not go back to regular commuting.

Leisure travellers might be less affected, granted. But the backbone of many lines is commuting, and right now I know many who are just bothering less and less due to the poor reliability, and strikes only add to that.

Of course, if the government sticks with the RPI +1 formula (which is of course wrong but unfortunately they love using obsolete measures for some reason), its likely that the rise for "regulated" fares will be 12 - 13%.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I’m the *last* person to defend OTT Covid nonsense. However it strikes me as completely wrong to single out the railway unions for behaving in the same way as every single other union, and indeed merely acting in accordance with government advice.

I wonder why the rail unions took any notice of "government advice" at any time noting their normally vehemanently expressed disbelief of any governmental statements that are put forward.

 

[Goldfish62]

Of course, if the government sticks with the RPI +1 formula (which is of course wrong but unfortunately they love using obsolete measures for some reason), its likely that the rise for "regulated" fares will be 12 - 13%.

Indeed, it's very odd that we're told that RPI is unreliable and so is no longer used. Except when it comes to fares rises apparently.

 

[exbrel]

My earnings are irrelevant to the point I was making - you’ll notice my comment was also agreed with by another member of staff.

You’re no doubt blissfully unaware of the current situation but many members of current rail staff, including very modestly paid ones, feel the need to take action now to stave off long term erosion of their pay and Ts and Cs. Does the phrase “short term pain for long term gain” mean anything to you?

If you really did thirty years on the railway, did you never take part in industrial action yourself? Perhaps you were one of those who were happy to take the perks but looks down your nose at those fighting to defend them?
And a decent pension, and a job you said you did for decades, which has presumably set you up for retirement?

As I said, the staff I know fully agree with the sentiment I expressed. Trust me you’re in no position to know Search better than they.

What did you do on the railway yourself, out of interest? Maybe some of your current colleagues still working in the industry can give you some direct feedback on your views on their approach to taking industrial action.

This attitude of “people who expect customers to come back shouldn’t work in the industry” of course comes from people who have an axe to grind and *wish* passengers wouldn’t return! It is a simple reality that railway passengers have come back after every strike ever. It’s intriguing how much that simple statement of reality irritates some on here.

They’re also continuing to come back after Covid. I’ve just passed through a thronging London Bridge. I guess I must have imagined the hoards of people piling on and off full and standing thameslink trains. After all we know from this forum the railway is busily carting around fresh air and needs to close. .
---------------------------------------------------------

i've no idea on railway pay, and i don't believe the newspaper quotes on it, but i do expect that they are paid reasonably well, but in the present situation do you honestly believe that 10% is viable or reachable? Now the unions by nature are labour orientated, so by asking for 10% and no compulsory redundencies are playing on their members feelings, because no sane unionist would expect a government be it conservative or labour to give that sort of rise in the present situation...because as is now happening other unions are putting claims in. in my time on the railways i went on strike once for a week, and that was a dispute over grades, which i didn't agree with, but i followed my local rep's advice, any other disputes that arose were solved by local discussions.

this above paragraph is part of my reply, but i pressed the wrong button- a age thingy...

Also my pension, i had to pay tax on then and now, and a family and mortgage was not easy, but i'm still here and thankful that i don't have to claim any benefits.
Finally has a service industry the railways depends a great deal on passengers, but every dispute/disruption looses some. have you ever heard the saying "the final straw that broke the camels back"

 

[footprints]

Liz Truss' proposals regarding rail strikes are being reported today as follows:

• Introduce minimum service levels during strikes affecting critical national infrastructure such as railways and hospitals.

• Raise the minimum proportion of workers required to back a strike ballot for industrial action to be legal from 40 per cent of those eligible to vote to 50 per cent.
• Increase the minimum notice period for strikes to four weeks, up from two weeks at present.
• End unions being able to strike as many times as they like in the six months after a ballot.
• Stop members receiving tax-free payments from trade unions on strike days.

She is promising to table this as primary legislation in her first 30 days in office.
RMT have responded with predictable fire and fury.

“If these proposals become law, there will be the biggest resistance mounted by the entire trade union movement, rivalling the general strike of 1926, the Suffragettes and Chartism.”

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-will-fiercely-resist-further-attacks-on-trades-unions/

 

[Thermal]

• Raise the minimum proportion of workers required to back a strike ballot for industrial action to be legal from 40 per cent of those eligible to vote to 50 per cent.

Liz Truss only obtained 45% of her own constituencies vote. More people didn't want her than did. If 50% is deemed the fair level for workers, it should also be the fair level for MP's too.

 

[jettofab]

I wonder why the rail unions took any notice of "government advice" at any time noting their normally vehemanently expressed disbelief of any governmental statements that are put forward.

This kind of rhetoric belongs in the Daily Mail. It is not constructive and is aggressively dismissive of the realities of both ongoing work by reps and the work they did particularly at the start, but throughout, the pandemic.

I'll only bite once but best of luck with the rest of your fishing trip.

 

[winks]

Rail unions rejected last-minute pay deal that would have averted strikes​

The RMT rejected a last-minute pay deal CREDIT: MARTIN POPE/GETTY IMAGES

• James Warrington
• 
  
• Oliver Gill, chief business correspondent

26 JULY 2022 • 1:36PM

The Rail, Maritime and Transport workers union (RMT) rejected a last-minute improved pay deal to avoid strike action that will this week heap fresh misery for beleaguered commuters.
Network Rail, the state-backed owner of tracks and stations, committed to an additional no-strings-attached 2pc increase late last week - on top of the 6pc already offered, The Telegraph has learnt.
The offer, which would have led to a 4pc pay rise for this year and next, was well-received by RMT negotiator Eddie Dempsey, industry sources said.
One claimed that the sentiment from Mr Dempsey was that “we can see a way through it and are prepared to postpone the strikes”.
But the proposals were rejected by the RMT ruling executive after they were put forward by Mr Dempsey.
“They have marched us up the hill and down again,” the source added. “The RMT executive seems intent on resurrecting the trade union movement in force.”
A spokesman for the RMT said: “We were optimistic about making enough progress to suspend strike action.
“However that evaporated when Network Rail hardened their position on attacking our members conditions of work and even threatening to put compulsory redundancies back on the table.”

Tube workers announce fresh strike in August

London Undeground workers are set to strike again next month amid a long-running dispute over jobs and pensions.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Not sure what to make of this article, an additional 2pc? Well received by Eddie Dempsey apprently.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Liz Truss' proposals regarding rail strikes are being reported today as follows:

• Introduce minimum service levels during strikes affecting critical national infrastructure such as railways and hospitals.
• Raise the minimum proportion of workers required to back a strike ballot for industrial action to be legal from 40 per cent of those eligible to vote to 50 per cent.
• Increase the minimum notice period for strikes to four weeks, up from two weeks at present.
• End unions being able to strike as many times as they like in the six months after a ballot.
• Stop members receiving tax-free payments from trade unions on strike days.

Not going to lie, the Tory membership and moderate Tories will absolutely love that stance. You would probably convince many middle ground floating voters with that.

I think the RMT will have to be very careful here...

 

[Smidster]

I really don't see anything particularly problematic in that list from Truss bar the one around a maximum number of days.

 

[MasterYoda]

why would LNWR be able to run a skeleton service on Wednesday but nothing at all on Saturday?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed, it's very odd that we're told that RPI is unreliable and so is no longer used. Except when it comes to fares rises apparently.

I think they will still use RPI plus 12% and use increases in wage for union demands as a reason why. Have to be careful to avoid a PR backlash there.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Liz Truss' proposals regarding rail strikes are being reported today as follows:


Not going to lie, the Tory membership and moderate Tories will absolutely love that stance. You would probably convince many middle ground floating voters with that.

I think the RMT will have to be very careful here...

Fantastic list. I’ve never had great opinions of Truss, but these proposals are very promising.

 

[dk1]

why would LNWR be able to run a skeleton service on Wednesday but nothing at all on Saturday?

Saturday is ASLEF.

 

[MasterYoda]

Saturday is ASLEF.

Could you help a union lay-person out? So some drivers are in RMT union, but all drivers are in ASLEF union?

 

[dk1]

Could you help a union lay-person out? So some drivers are in RMT union, but all drivers are in ASLEF union?

Very few drivers are in RMT. The vast majority if not all at most depots would be ASLEF.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Very few drivers are in RMT. The vast majority if not all at most depots would be ASLEF.

Isn't it LU (TfL) with the bulk of RMT drivers? And not involved in the current disputes.

 

[Starmill]

Could you help a union lay-person out? So some drivers are in RMT union, but all drivers are in ASLEF union?

Generally it's only a small handful of drivers who are in RMT, usually as they were previously working in a role where RMT are the mainstream and they simply continued their membership.

 

[dk1]

Isn't it LU (TfL) with the bulk of RMT drivers? And not involved in the current disputes.

Yes which is what confuses so many I think as they are the ones usually taking action more frequently.

 

[Goldfish62]

Isn't it LU (TfL) with the bulk of RMT drivers? And not involved in the current disputes.

It tends to go by line.

 

[Moonshot]

Liz Truss' proposals regarding rail strikes are being reported today as follows:


Not going to lie, the Tory membership and moderate Tories will absolutely love that stance. You would probably convince many middle ground floating voters with that.

I think the RMT will have to be very careful here...

I wonder what they propose to be a minimum service level? Despite the strikes tomorrow, 20% of services will still run

 

[westv]

I wonder what they propose to be a minimum service level? Despite the strikes tomorrow, 20% of services will still run

But some lines have no service at all.

 

[Moonshot]

But some lines have no service at all.

Well aware of that

 

[Mag_seven]

I wonder what they propose to be a minimum service level?

I was in Italy recently when there was a strike and they had to provide some services between designated times - not all routes were provided with this though.

 

[Starmill]

But some lines have no service at all.

Yes, the way that the minimum service level works is that the it removes the lawful protections from the industrial action if they're not met. They would be likely to be set at around 70% of the normal level of service.

Of course, you can still go on an unlawful strike, sometimes called a wildcat strike, but you can't then rely on the lawful protections of breaking your contract.

 

[Goldfish62]

Liz Truss' proposals regarding rail strikes are being reported today as follows:


Not going to lie, the Tory membership and moderate Tories will absolutely love that stance. You would probably convince many middle ground floating voters with that.

I think the RMT will have to be very careful here...

That will all require primary legislation, as did the Trade Union Act 2016, which takes time, particularly with draft legislation having to be written regarding minimum service levels and what exactly the definition of that is.

It's not something which is going to impact on the current dispute and I'm sure that even if all action was suddenly called off now PM Truss would still proceed with her proposals.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This kind of rhetoric belongs in the Daily Mail. It is not constructive and is aggressively dismissive of the realities of both ongoing work by reps and the work they did particularly at the start, but throughout, the pandemic.

I'll only bite once but best of luck with the rest of your fishing trip.

How is it that that so many people on the left-leaning side of the political spectrum appear so well versed in the viewpoints that they associate with the Daily Mail? I would have thought that their political views meant that particular newspaper would have been the last one that they would read.

 

[Moonshot]

How is it that that so many people on the left-leaning side of the political spectrum appear so well versed in the viewpoints that they associate with the Daily Mail? I would have thought that their political views meant that particular newspaper would have been the last one that they would read.

I don't read it .....but I'm well aware of the anti rail agenda it has. An awareness brought about by the age of the internet and social media.

 

[Bluejays]

This kind of rhetoric belongs in the Daily Mail. It is not constructive and is aggressively dismissive of the realities of both ongoing work by reps and the work they did particularly at the start, but throughout, the pandemic.

I'll only bite once but best of luck with the rest of your fishing trip.

I know it's tempting, but don't feed the troll