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Shops & other venues that still insist on masks.

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yorkie

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Masks were mandated in June on public transport and then July in shops and other public venues which also coincided with the lifting of lockdown restrictions, reopening of pubs/hospitality and a Summer/Autumn period where a lot of people wanted to go out and socialise with others after the tough Spring lockdown. So of course cases were bound to go up as a result.
Masks came in for hospitality, pubs etc later than that! It wasn't until 24th September.

I'm glad you appear to admit that masks did not do anything to stop the rise in cases, so that's something!

You also agree that cases dropped sharply when masks ceased to be mandated, yes?
Besides the question is not whether their use prevented transmission and cases, it is whether they prevented a person from getting the same amount of viral load from an infected person wearing a mask compared with an infected person not wearing a mask (and thus potentially reducing the likelihood of severe illness).
Do you have any real world evidence of this?
 
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Philip

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Masks came in for hospitality, pubs etc later than that! It wasn't until 24th September.

I'm glad you appear to admit that masks did not do anything to stop the rise in cases, so that's something!

You also agree that cases dropped sharply when masks ceased to be mandated, yes?

Do you have any real world evidence of this?

I have said that I do not believe surgical masks prevented transmission. Cases probably dropped because of increasing immunity rather than masks being a cause of transmission and higher case rates.

I don't have actual evidence to support the second point about viral load, but I don't think you or anyone else has enough evidence to confirm that masks didn't have an effect on viral load and serious illness neither. So you play the percentages.
 

yorkie

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I have said that I do not believe surgical masks prevented transmission. Cases probably dropped because of increasing immunity rather than masks being a cause of transmission and higher case rates.
So we're all agreed masks made no difference to infection rates. Good :)
I don't have actual evidence to support the second point about viral load, but I don't think you or anyone else has enough evidence to confirm that masks didn't have an effect on viral load and serious illness neither. So you play the percentages.
So anyone can make up a claim on the basis that the onus is on others to disprove it? That's your argument?
 

Eyersey468

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So anyone can make up a claim on the basis that the onus is on others to disprove it? That's your argument?
That appears to be the case, maybe the government should have mandated sacrificing a goat each week to the gods to appease them and it might stop so many Covid deaths*

*yes I am being facetious.
 

Philip

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So we're all agreed masks made no difference to infection rates. Good :)

So anyone can make up a claim on the basis that the onus is on others to disprove it? That's your argument?

Sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry and before we had other protections in place a lot of people thought masks were just a little measure which may help to protect others or themselves to an extent and so they were prepared to wear them.

I appreciate that some people couldn't wear them for medical reasons and others found them distressing, however for the majority of people they were a bit of a nuisance but no big deal otherwise, and there was a chance it helped protect others to an extent so that's why most people went along with wearing them, rather than 'dystopia' or other sensationalist claims.
 

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Sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry and before we had other protections in place a lot of people thought masks were just a little measure which may help to protect others or themselves to an extent and so they were prepared to wear them.

I appreciate that some people couldn't wear them for medical reasons and others found them distressing, however for the majority of people they were a bit of a nuisance but no big deal otherwise, and there was a chance it helped protect others to an extent so that's why most people went along with wearing them, rather than 'dystopia' or other sensationalist claims.

If that's the case why does usage plummet when they are no longer mandatory ?

In my view most people wore them because they were forced to, not for any altruistic reasons.
 

Philip

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If that's the case why does usage plummet when they are no longer mandatory ?

In my view most people wore them because they were forced to, not for any altruistic reasons.

Perhaps because most people had been offered/taken up their two vaccinations by the time they were no longer mandatory. And to say that their usage plummeted isn't accurate; many people were still wearing them this time last year and from my own observations at a busy station it was a gradual reduction over some months in the number of people wearing them.
 

DustyBin

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I have said that I do not believe surgical masks prevented transmission. Cases probably dropped because of increasing immunity rather than masks being a cause of transmission and higher case rates.

I don't have actual evidence to support the second point about viral load, but I don't think you or anyone else has enough evidence to confirm that masks didn't have an effect on viral load and serious illness neither. So you play the percentages.

We’ve discussed this previously. My understanding, based on what I’ve read, is that you either have a viable infection or you don’t. Peak viral load is reached several days after initial infection, and is dependant on a number of factors. Whilst I can’t categorically disprove your claim, with respect it appears to be based on nothing but your own “logic”.
 

Philip

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Whilst I can’t categorically disprove your claim, with respect it appears to be based on nothing but your own “logic”.

Exactly and the same goes for the opposite argument, that face coverings had absolutely no effect. That's why I said people played the percentages when it came to wearing them. This country is not a dictatorship or an authoritarian state, so claims of most people only wearing them because they were coerced into it are questionable to say the least.
 
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DustyBin

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Exactly and the same goes for the opposite argument, that face coverings had absolutely on effect.

That’s not entirely true; there is in fact quite a lot of evidence to support such an argument. Is it absolutely 100% watertight and conclusive? Perhaps not if you set an extremely high bar, but it’s pretty persuasive nonetheless.

That's why I said people played the percentages when it came to wearing them. This country is not a dictatorship or authoritarian state, so claims of most people only wearing them because they were coerced into it are questionable to say the least.

The majority of people wore them because they were forced to, or because they had been misled into thinking they offered a good level of protection. Do you really think that if the government had came out and said “masks may reduce the chance of you contracting covid by 1% so if you’d like to wear one feel free” the majority of people would have taken up the offer?

Edited for typos!
 
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yorkie

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Sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry...
You could use that logic to advocate all sorts of ineffective measures indefinitely on the basis that they might do something. It's a meaningless statement.

and before we had other protections in place a lot of people thought masks were just a little measure which may help to protect others or themselves to an extent and so they were prepared to wear them.
So you keep saying but the reality is that people only wore them once they became mandated; before then hardly anyone wore them. And once they were no longer mandated, use plummeted and now hardly anyone wears one. If you see someone wearing a mask now they really stand out.

I appreciate that some people couldn't wear them for medical reasons and others found them distressing, however for the majority of people they were a bit of a nuisance but no big deal otherwise, and there was a chance it helped protect others to an extent so that's why most people went along with wearing them, rather than 'dystopia' or other sensationalist claims.
So you keep repeating, but see replies above.

If that's the case why does usage plummet when they are no longer mandatory ?

In my view most people wore them because they were forced to, not for any altruistic reasons.
Exactly.

Perhaps because most people had been offered/taken up their two vaccinations by the time they were no longer mandatory.
It wasn't for this reason; for the majority it was simply a case of if mandated, wear one and if not, don't.

And to say that their usage plummeted isn't accurate; many people were still wearing them this time last year and from my own observations at a busy station it was a gradual reduction over some months in the number of people wearing them.
It was complicated by the fact that when they were no longer mandatory there were still several months of being bombarded by announcements and signage urging people to wear the damn things; this meant that the reduction in usage in certain settings, such as public transport, was slower than others such as pubs.

What you describe is not evidence people wanted to wear them; if they did, they'd still be wearing them today. It's simply evidence of most people doing what they are told to do, even if they think it doesn't achieve anything.

Exactly and the same goes for the opposite argument, that face coverings had absolutely on effect. That's why I said people played the percentages when it came to wearing them.
You cannot ask people to prove a negative; if you claim that a particular intervention is effective in a particular way, the onus is on you to provide evidence of this.

This country is not a dictatorship or authoritarian state, so claims of most people only wearing them because they were coerced into it are questionable to say the least.
This is completely false.

Firstly, depending on how you define it, we did become an authoritarian state for a period of around 16 months or so. A country that tries to fine people for going out for a walk, or who harasses distressed relatives at funerals (I could go on...) is an authoritarian state in my opinion. You are entitled to a different opinion if you have a different ideology where such behaviour is normalised.

Secondly, people generally do what is mandated in most countries regardless of whether or not they are in an authoritarian state or not.

Your arguments make absolutely no sense.
 

GC class B1

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Perhaps because most people had been offered/taken up their two vaccinations by the time they were no longer mandatory. And to say that their usage plummeted isn't accurate; many people were still wearing them this time last year and from my own observations at a busy station it was a gradual reduction over some months in the number of people wearing them.
I think there will be correlation between the number of people who wear them now and the number who wore them when mandatory. The number of people infected at the present is similar to the peak when masks were mandatory. i think it is fair to conclude that the small minority of people who are now wearing masks are those who would have worn them anyway, and the vast majority therefore only wore them because they were mandatory.
When the mask mandate had been lifted, I spoke to some people who were putting them on when getting on the bus and I asked why. They replied that they were required on public transport , so I informed them that wasn’t the case. It is likely that the reason the usage reduced slowly was because the messaging was poor.
 
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yorkie

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When the mask mandate had been lifted, I spoke to some people who were putting them on when getting on the bus and I asked why. They replied that they were required on public transport , so I informed them that wasn’t the case. It is likely that the reason the usage reduced slowly was because the messaging was poor.
Indeed, many operators were desperately trying to get people to wear masks and this meant it took longer for usage to drop.

LNER were one of the worst for this.
 

Philip

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Quite a lot of people were wearing masks before they became mandatory. To say that most people only wore them because they were forced to is fallacy.
 

DustyBin

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I think there will be correlation between the number of people who wear them now and the number who wore them when mandatory. The number of people infected at the present is similar to the peak when masks were mandatory. i think it is fair to conclude that the small minority of people who are now wearing masks are those who would have worn them anyway, and the vast majority therefore only wore them because they were mandatory.
When the mask mandate had been lifted, I spoke to some people who were putting them on when getting on the bus and I asked why. They replied that they were required on public transport , so I informed them that wasn’t the case. It is likely that the reason the usage reduced slowly was because the messaging was poor.

Yes a surprising (or perhaps not!) number of people didn’t understand the rules as the messaging was so confusing (deliberately so in my opinion). Then there was the “strongly recommended” nonsense as well of course……
 

yorkie

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Quite a lot of people were wearing masks before they became mandatory. To say that most people only wore them because they were forced to is fallacy.
Not true at all; before they became mandated, hardly anyone was wearing a mask.
 

Philip

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You’re literally now making things up.

Nope, my own observations whether or not you like it. Obviously the number increased hugely by the time they were mandated, but quite a few were already wearing them in shops before it became law.
 

DustyBin

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Nope, my own observations whether or not you like it.

When and where was this observed?

I was in London for two weeks immediately before the first lockdown was announced, and the only people wearing masks were the usual East Asians and a very small number of other people who stuck out like a sore thumb. Likewise in and around Newcastle I don’t recall seeing a single mask until they were mandated.

Your observations may of course differ from my own, but I suspect mine are consistent with those of the majority of people.
 

yorkie

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Nope, my own observations whether or not you like it. Obviously the number increased hugely by the time they were mandated, but quite a few were already wearing them in shops before it became law.
Very few were, as observed by me in many places as I do a lot of travelling.

Where/when did you observe this?

I see the Department of Health are desperately trying to get people to mask up:


Choosing to wear a face covering in crowded and enclosed spaces can help to stop the spread of COVID-19 and keep everyone safer this summer
1f637.svg
Find out more: https://gov.uk/guidance/livin
The replies are very negative in nature.

This is absolute nonsense; face coverings of the sort most commonly worn are not designed to filter aerosol particles and were found to be ineffective against the spread of Sars-CoV-2.

It is not true to suggest that people will be "kept safe" by masking; studies did find that the wearing of tight-fitting FFP3 masks, when correctly worn/handled etc did reduce transmission however all this will do is delay the inevitability of exposure, as Sars-CoV-2 is going to continue to circulate at high levels until a high level of population immunity is reached. Delaying the onset of endemic equilibrium would not make anyone "safer" and would just prolong the epidemic. The virus is never going to disappear and is becoming the 5th endemic human coronavirus.

I don't understand how Government accounts can be used to spread such misleading messaging but I am pleased to see the vast majority of the population are not being fooled.
 
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Sars-CoV-2 is going to continue to circulate at high levels until a high level of population immunity is reached

The population immunity you seek seems unlikely, as Omicron BA.5 is linked with higher odds of causing a second SARS-COV-2 infection regardless of vaccination status and previous infection. That's backed up anecdotally: a careful, young, fit and fully vaccinated relative was reinfected within 10 weeks.

COVID-19 remains a nasty disease with evidence of damage to the heart and lungs. Omicron BA.5 is linked with more severe outcomes regardless of vaccination status.

A Portuguese study this week referred to "evidence to adjust public health measures during the BA.5 surge." The Dept of Health guidance, as we go towards people being indoors more, seems to me to be prudent.
 

yorkie

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The population immunity you seek seems unlikely, as Omicron BA.5 is linked with higher odds of causing a second SARS-COV-2 infection regardless of vaccination status and previous infection. That's backed up anecdotally: a careful, young, fit and fully vaccinated relative was reinfected within 10 weeks.
You think we won't ever get to the stage we reached with similar viruses such as OC43?
COVID-19 remains a nasty disease with evidence of damage to the heart and lungs
In what proportion of people who have been fully vaccinated?
. Omicron BA.5 is linked with more severe outcomes regardless of vaccination status.
Really?

These virologists are not convinced
1:25:45
...this is an example of why you cannot

1:25:52
just take a statistic out of one place and say you know ba5 is more danger this

1:25:57
is the most dangerous that maybe this is what topol is talking about he doesn't understand that you can't take quebec's

1:26:03
data and apply it to the world i mean this is well it's not just you can't take quebec's data you can't take

1:26:09
last year's data because the definition the way you reported case...
Nor is this immunologist:
Another note on vaccines. Recent data out of UKHSA VE Report hospitalization data and community study data shows that vaccine efficacy is NO DIFFERENT for BA.2 than BA.4/BA.5 suggesting vaccines still work quite well. •https://bit.ly/3AxusKM
the pandemic mainly will be dictated by preexisting immunity, which involves MORE THAN nAbs. Look at REAL-WORLD data out of South Africa who have found NO DIFFERENCE in risk of hospitalization or severe disease for BA.4/BA.5. •https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/590040/good-news-for-covid-in-south-africa-mediclinic/https://nature.com/articles/s4159
A Portuguese study this week referred to "evidence to adjust public health measures during the BA.5 surge."
And...?
The Dept of Health guidance, as we go towards people being indoors more, seems to me to be prudent.
We should close the pubs/restaurants/night clubs then, as these are incompatible with being masked up.

Where is your evidence?
 

Eyersey468

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Nope, my own observations whether or not you like it. Obviously the number increased hugely by the time they were mandated, but quite a few were already wearing them in shops before it became law.
May I ask when and where did you observe this? I am Yorkshire based and I saw hardly anyone wearing one before they were mandated
 

Philip

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May I ask when and where did you observe this? I am Yorkshire based and I saw hardly anyone wearing one before they were mandated

I can't remember the exact places and exact dates as I didn't note things down, I just remember seeing quite a lot of people wearing them locally to my region and on a couple of visits to London in July before the mandate came in.

A more noticeable thing was whilst on visits to Oxford in May/June 2021, there were lots of people in their late teens/20s wearing masks whilst walking along the streets in the city centre - it has never been mandatory to wear them whilst walking along the pavement yet many were doing so in Oxford on the days I was there, which suggests they weren't wearing them because they had been told to.
 

Eyersey468

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I can't remember the exact places and exact dates as I didn't note things down, I just remember seeing quite a lot of people wearing them locally to my region and on a couple of visits to London in July before the mandate came in.

A more noticeable thing was whilst on visits to Oxford in May/June 2021, there were lots of people in their late teens/20s wearing masks whilst walking along the streets in the city centre - it has never been mandatory to wear them whilst walking along the pavement yet many were doing so in Oxford on the days I was there, which suggests they weren't wearing them because they had been told to.
I didn't expect you to remember exact dates I just wondered roughly when and also a rough geographical area as well
 

yorkie

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I can't remember the exact places and exact dates as I didn't note things down, I just remember seeing quite a lot of people wearing them locally to my region and on a couple of visits to London in July before the mandate came in.
Which region? The vast majority of people in London weren't wearing them before it was mandated.
A more noticeable thing was whilst on visits to Oxford in May/June 2021, there were lots of people in their late teens/20s wearing masks whilst walking along the streets in the city centre - it has never been mandatory to wear them whilst walking along the pavement yet many were doing so in Oxford on the days I was there, which suggests they weren't wearing them because they had been told to.
At that time the mandate was still in force and some people chose to keep them on between visits to venues on the basis that the advice was not to handle masks unnecessarily.

Also the young people you saw in Oxford were probably more likely to be of the sort of demographic who is relatively on board with masks and probably making a political statement, and are hardly representative of wider society. It would be very different in certain other cities (or indeed in certain suburbs of Oxford).

The experience of the vast majority of people in the vast majority of places is surely that the vast majority of people did not wear masks until they were mandated.

The idea that people (other than the hard left and a few other misfits) want to wear masks is absurd and not borne out by the reality.
 

Philip

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Which region? The vast majority of people in London weren't wearing them before it was mandated.

At that time the mandate was still in force and some people chose to keep them on between visits to venues on the basis that the advice was not to handle masks unnecessarily.

Also the young people you saw in Oxford were probably more likely to be of the sort of demographic who is relatively on board with masks and probably making a political statement, and are hardly representative of wider society. It would be very different in certain other cities (or indeed in certain suburbs of Oxford).

The experience of the vast majority of people in the vast majority of places is surely that the vast majority of people did not wear masks until they were mandated.

The idea that people (other than the hard left and a few other misfits) want to wear masks is absurd and not borne out by the reality.

North West region. My London observations were clearly different to yours then - if anything I'd say London had the highest useage of them from my observations. I think you're being a bit patronizing to the young people of Oxford in this post!

It's not necessarily about people 'wanting' to wear them, rather more that people felt it was important to wear them, for the reasons I've stated.
 

yorkie

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North West region. My London observations were clearly different to yours then - if anything I'd say London had the highest useage of them from my observations. I think you're being a bit patronizing to the young people of Oxford in this post!
I remember visiting the Sainsbury's at Preston and being surprised at how few people were wearing masks compared to York, so I don't believe you that many people in the North West region were choosing to voluntarily wear masks.
It's not necessarily about people 'wanting' to wear them, rather more that people felt it was important to wear them, for the reasons I've stated.
So you keep saying; I refer you to the replies above.
 

Bikeman78

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If people thought masks protected people, why has hardly anyone been wearing them in recent weeks where case rates have been really high?

It's often erroneously claimed by pro-maskers that people want to wear masks, and use this as justification for mask mandates. However when masks are optional, mask wearing plummets. Right now infections are really high (albeit down from the peak of a few weeks ago) and yet hardly anyone wears masks. That suggests to me that most people know that masks do not protect others.
Masks were still very rare in Wales by Fathers day 2020. I know this because I took my first post lockdown bus ride around that time. I had my kids with me. At the bus stop there was a lady with a mask. My then five year old daughter said, in the blunt way that small children do, "What's that on the lady's face?" Clearly she'd never seen one before. It's not as if they were hard to get hold of by that date. I'd already ordered some online for a few quid. Most people only wore masks when the law told them to.
 
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