Why I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a physical ticket

[vic-rijrode]

I do think there is a great temptation in seeing the ticket office dispute as binary. Stations should not be staffless unless they're rural shacks. But equally, staff behind a window are under-utilised, and would be better off as a deterrent to ASB and fare evasion, and more helpful in shifting customers to better and eco-friendly forms of electronic ticketing by being on hand as floor walkers at most busy town stations.

Quite!

 

[317 forever]

Yesterday I considered trying an e-ticket option. I was not even bothered by the fact that it was a split ticket. What did bother me was that I was buying Bus Plus, and I had my doubts as to bus drivers would all recognise email with Bus Plus.

 

[Haywain]

Yesterday I considered trying an e-ticket option. I was not even bothered by the fact that it was a split ticket. What did bother me was that I was buying Bus Plus, and I had my doubts as to bus drivers would all recognise email with Bus Plus.

PlusBus isn’t currently available as an eTicket.

 

[317 forever]

PlusBus isn’t currently available as an eTicket.

Just as well I kept to paper tickets then. But thanks, I know to keep to paper tickets for Bus Plus at least for now.

 

[Wallsendmag]

PlusBus isn’t currently available as an eTicket.

Coming shortly to a bus you though

 

[Haywain]

Just as well I kept to paper tickets then. But thanks, I know to keep to paper tickets for Bus Plus at least for now.

If you buy online you don’t have a choice - when you add PlusBus the whole transaction will be unavailable as eTickets.

 

[JonathanH]

Also, the machine assumes that I want to buy a ticket from the station where the machine is situated (the machines at East croydon do not offer 'Boundary of Zone 6' as a starting point).
By using the ticket office at east Croydon I can get a 'Boundary of Zone 6 to Eastbourne' off-peak day return (with Senior rail card and showing my Freedom Pass) at 0900.

Very first screen when you select 'Tickets from another station' on a GTR ticket machine offers Boundary of Zone 6.

 

[yorkie]

I have been travelling by rail with nobody to hold my hand for over 60 years. In that time I've used Edmondson tickets, tickets on 80 track card sized card, flimsy orange/yellow (PORTIS type) paper tickets, CCSTs, and paper roll tickets, - there may be more. I cannot remember ever losing one, and when I have been benefitting from a railcard reduction I've never not had it with me for inspection. That's not to say that I'm perfect or have an infallible memory as I've mislaid, lost or even damaged/destroyed other articles that I've carried, but have always accepted responsibility for my errors. I carry contctless bank cards for many payments and if they don't work correctly, that is either the vendor or the bank's problem.
I have been forced to rely on a mobile phone in a few instances and on occasions, that has let me down, but fortunately I have not let a phone be my sole means of getting home safely, and especially linked my phone to a bank card. I see no reason why I should do so in order to travel and there are plenty of people unable to do so. This pushing for everything to be aligned to digital payment can only make the lot of many far worse.

Well you're lucky then as I know of many instances where people have lost printed tickets.

This reply demonstrates that either you don't know many people of the Senior Railcard generation, or, if you do, that you don't pay much attention to how a lot of them live their lives.

I do; for example my parents once forgot to pack their tickets for their journey home from Cornwall to York. That was a problem as they had to buy replacement tickets and although they got the originals refunded, they had to pay the difference which was a fair bit of cash as the price had risen since then.

I think you'll find a lot of the Senior Railcard generation do use electronic devices these days. It's certainly true to say that many of them like a printed ticket. e-tickets do not in any way prevent anyone having a physical ticket. My parents like the fact that they can have both a physical ticket and also a digital backup; e-tickets allow that!

Not an option in a fully gatelined penalty fare area, e.g. most of London and the home counties.

If there is no opportunity to buy before boarding, you cannot be denied travel and are permitted to buy at the first available opportunity.

How many fully gatelined stations in penalty fare areas have no machines which take cash?

And if they do, the staff would have to let passengers through.

I imagine that the same pressure to push passengers into using phones will also include the removal of paying by cash at TVMs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2022 ==


As a quite 'old' (well into my '70s) Senior Railcard holder I am capable of using a smartphone to do many things for my convenience when out and about, yet I know plenty of my age who can't or don't, so why should they be denied travel for the convenience of others and/or the TOCs. Many from this area attend hospital appointments in Central London, so safe rapid transport by Thameslink is important and the daytime opening of the booking office is key to that. If consideration of others in that situation is patronising is patornising, then I understand why many older people just keep their mouths shut.

Who is denying travel? If anyone is denying travel that needs to be dealt with.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2022 ==

Quite right. I resent the growing expectation that I need to carry a mobile phone at all times.

You don't. You can buy an e-ticket using any device and you can print it. No need to carry a mobile phone.

My mobile seems to behave like a newborn baby - needing constant nursing and attention. When it's not running out of battery (or mysteriously not charging overnight, despite the cable being plugged in), it wants more money putting on it, or perhaps something updating. It seems to have great trouble maintaining connectivity between Shrewsbury and Telford - hardly a remote place with herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain. And all this functionality has cost me several hundred pounds, plus a hefty monthly charge.

Sounds like a false economy keeping that phone, but that's a whole new topic.

I'm often in the queue behind someone scanning a mobile ticket at the barriers in Shrewsbury, which then fails to open the gates. This happens several times a week. So with all these advantages, I'll stick to paper tickets, thank you.

And I've been behind people faffing around with paper tickets which fail to open the gates.

Also at many ticket offices these days you will be getting an (Aztec) barcode ticket, not a magnetic paper ticket.

So if you don't like barcode tickets, well you are getting them regardless, there is no escaping that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2022 ==

I also prefer physical card stock tickets.

At many major locations these are no longer available; if you use a ticket office these days you are generally going to get a 'till roll' style barcode ticket, which is basically a printed version of an e-ticket which is printed for you (with no electronic backup).

I have had to use etickets on occasion where they have been purchased in that format by my employer (once it occurred to me this might be their default I requested they choose a physical ticket where available). My experiences with etickets have been fine and without issue, and yet, I still prefer a physical ticket.

That's fine but your choice is between having a barcode ticket printed for you with no backup or having a digital ticket which you can choose to print yourself.

As I've said before, I think the rail industry should enable TVMs to print physical copies of e-tickets; this would destroy all the arguments against e-tickets compared to the paper equivalents.

I don't understand the obsession this forum seems to have with trying to convert people to etickets.

I could say "I don't understand the obsession this forum seems to have with trying to stick to old format tickets which are rejected by the majority of passengers"

But your statement makes no sense; "the forum" has no view. People on the forum have very differing views. I am not obsessed with converting anyone and the only time I tend to comment on the advantages of e-tickets are when other people make claims I feel are misleading or are incompatible with the views of the majority of passengers. Then I will reply accordingly. I don't create threads telling people to use e-tickets!

I accept that one day they may be the only option, but until that point I will use card stock tickets wherever available as it is my preference. It may not be entirely logical (although I do find it easier), but it is there and I see no reason to change while I still have the choice to use the format I prefer.

Magnetic card tickets are being phased out and the choice is going to be between barcode tickets issued on till roll stock or barcode tickets issued as e-tickets which can optionally be printed.

Not all older people cannot purchase online, but a not insignificant portion of them cannot/will not. Equally the same is true of some below the senior railcard age.

Anyone who cannot buy online and cannot buy at their origin station is entitled to pay at the next opportunity, which may be on the train.

None of my grandparents would make an online purchase (all in their 80s) although they might ask a family member to purchase for them or use a telephone service. If a booking office was nearer than they are in reality I am certain they would use that. One might attempt a TVM if there was no alternative for a low value fare, I doubt it would even register as an option to any of the others.

My mother (50s) will make online purchases but would be lost to book a train ticket due to the complexity of the system and her lack of confidence in using a computer. She would ask her husband or go to a booking office if one was available. She might attempt a TVM for a low value fare if there was no alternative.

A friend of mine (40s) will not make online purchases. He uses booking offices, or if one was not available ask a family member.

They can choose not to make online purchases if they want, but ticket offices will often charge more than booking sites (at least the ones I use).

The reality is that ticket offices are going to continue to reduce opening hours and are going to be unavailable at an increasing number of stations. This does not prevent anyone travelling and does not reduce any rights people have.

I do "embrace" the technology when it is most appropriate and convenient for me to use it. That surely is the whole point.

Indeed and you only have to look at the trends to see what people find appropriate and convenient.

Personally I find the prospect of buying a ticket on-line at the last minute whilst in the station or on the platform not very attractive given the noise and crowds.

No-one is saying you have to do this!

How also do I get past the ticket gates before buying a ticket online "when boarding the train"?

If there are ticket gates and the ticket office is open, then your choice is to either use your device or the ticket office or a machine. If there is no ticket office then your choice is to use a machine or your device. If there is no facility to pay at the origin you have to be allowed through.

Anybody who stores dozens of tickets in their wallet is definitely asking for trouble - but who would do that.

I know of people who have done that; I even know of a forum member who had all their tickets confiscated by a train company (I think it was Southern before it became GTR).

Surely you would only take that ticket (or those tickets) that you were going to use that day.

Indeed and that introduces the risk of leaving a ticket behind.

One piece of paper in a wallet versus one mobile phone - probably also in your pocket - what's the difference?

The difference is a paper ticket has no backup at all; it's that ticket or nothing. The ticket on your phone can optionally be printed and/or shown on any other device.

"Most people chosing not to use ticket offices" is very subjective - when the inspector comes through the carriage, probably 50% of passengers proffer physical tickets - whether bought on-line or at a ticket office I don't know. It seems to be the chattering class that use e-tickets.

What route is that on? On my trains the vast majority are showing e-tickets!

From this thread, I can see I am not the only one who is dismayed by the relentless march to all things "digital".

True but you are in a minority.

Route dependent, maybe. In my experience it's roughly 10% paper tickets these days.

That's much more in line with my experiences. If on an LNER train then even less than that!

Whilst i'm not on any side in this particular debate this doesn't fit with what I see these days. Tickets on devices are easily above 80% on any service I use, it's fairly obvious by the sheer amount of beeps heard as the guard moves through the train after each stop.

Yep agreed.

Like vic-rijrode, I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a ticket.
In the relatively recent past I would buy advance tickets and walk to the station to get them from the ticket machine in advance. Now I'm happy to use e-tickets for the purpose, and I generally print them as well as carry them on my phone, that's my belt-and-braces preference.

Yep, exactly my point!

I value the skill of the people in my local station who sell me tickets, and have always enjoyed my interactions with them, they never had a problem selling me the ticket(s) I asked for including split tickets.

Yep that's fine but some ticket office staff can be obstructive at some stations and they are not supposed to advise on split tickets, so if you don't already know what to ask for, they are going to be charging more than a site such as Trainsplit.

Also it's far more convenient to get a combination of tickets on a single PDF than have a string of tickets to juggle with.

Many of my trips are made on the day, with the decision to travel made at the time of travelling and then I buy the ticket at the station.
I spent my life in the computer industry and so I have no problem with the technology. I just find a paper ticket a significantly better medium for many of the reasons vic-rijrode states.
It's just my preference, but I can see the way things are going. So this will change, and I will modify my behaviour accordingly. I don't need to be convinced that the new way is better, because for me it isn't, but I'm not going to fight the inevitable. Especially as we seem to be seeing off dreadful m-tickets, thank goodness!

Yes they were awful and put many people off e-tickets!

My paper ticket also elicit a beep though.

True, the new style paper tickets are issued on till roll stock and are (Aztec) barcode tickets which are simply provided only on a piece of paper. They are effectively the same as e-tickets, but pre-printed and with no digital version.

I do think there is a great temptation in seeing the ticket office dispute as binary. Stations should not be staffless unless they're rural shacks. But equally, staff behind a window are under-utilised, and would be better off as a deterrent to ASB and fare evasion, and more helpful in shifting customers to better and eco-friendly forms of electronic ticketing by being on hand as floor walkers at most busy town stations.

I completely agree. I am firmly against destaffing stations but the staff could be far better deployed than sitting behind a window.

I think the issue is that e-tickets currently either require you to show your ticket on a mobile device (which is subject to the vagaries of battery life, untimely updates/crashes etc.) or to print the PDF out yourself (not everyone has access to a printer and in any case, you shouldn't have to pay to print your ticket).

Given the potential sanctions for being unable to show a valid ticket - even if through no direct fault of your own - I prefer to stick with paper tickets. I've never lost my phone or my wallet and this seems a spurious argument either way.

When or if e-tickets can be printed by ticket machines just as ToD bookings can now, I'd be happy to make that switch.

I've called for this time and time again; it would destroy the arguments against e-tickets, so is quick win for the rail industry.

Pretty much the only time I will use a ticket office now is if I have an RTV to redeem (as far as I'm aware they cannot be used online?). However, as the ticket office at my home station of York is now greatly reduced in size and staffing, if I'm going to purchase a ticket for travel asap I will have to turn up a good bit earlier than my train is due to depart as there does seem to still be quite a few travellers utilising the facility. So I'm either queuing for ages or marking time on the platform (or more likely York Tap) if I'm straight in and out.

Personally, I prefer to buy online and usually will print out a "hard copy" too, and if I'm carrying a bag will also have a fully charged power bank in case of any mobile phone battery farces.

Same here. I bought a couple of till roll style tickets to get RTVs used up. There was no queue at all and as I finished my transaction both windows were free. One of the people selling tickets was the Scottish guy who has been there for as long as I can remember (certainly when I was a kid and maybe even decades before that).

At the same time (approx 1630 on a busy weekday) there would have been perhaps 10 windows open in the ticket office heyday and also long queues (though generally much less of a queue for "travel today").

Times have changed a lot, even if some of the staff haven't, though I notice some of the staff have been redeployed to the 1st class lounge.

 

[sheff1]

No-one seems to have an issue with airline tickets being issued as etickets, or tickets to sporting events being issued as etickets so I really don't understand what the fuss is about.

I attended a sporting event in Sweden a couple of weeks ago. I attempted to buy a ticket online but found the system would not accept a UK bank card, so I went to to the ticket office at the stadium who sold me a paper ticket. If there had been no ticket office how would I have gained access to the event without a 'fuss' ?

Back to railways, fortunately the Swedish railway operators' online systems and TVMs do accept a UK card, as even large stations there have no booking office. I have never had a valid eticket declined on SJ which cannot be said for this country, which is why I only use etickets here for advances - too many 'computer says no' types seem to work for UK ToCs.

I accept that the way things are going the opportunity to use physical tickets on the railway will continually reduce - I am not lookmg forward to the ensuing 'discussions' with those people who think electronic systems are somehow infallible.

 

[TUC]

This is based on assumptions about people and technology that don't always apply in the real world.

Not everyone has a digital device.
Not everyone with a digital device has a printer.
Not everyone with a digital device feels secure about making financial transactions online.
Not everyone can operate a ticket machine.
Digital devices are not infallible.
Wifi is not infallible.

No, but rail enthusiasts seem to be disproportionately full of people who are cautious about the above issues, as compared to the general public. Quite why I'm not sure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This reply demonstrates that either you don't know many people of the Senior Railcard generation, or, if you do, that you don't pay much attention to how a lot of them live their lives.

What, like my parents in their 70s? They're never off the Internet. The generations that don't use it are, to be blunt, rapidly dying off.

 

[yorkie]

I attended a sporting event in Sweden a couple of weeks ago. I attempted to buy a ticket online but found the system would not accept a UK bank card, so I went to to the ticket office at the stadium who sold me a paper ticket. If there had been no ticket office how would I have gained access to the event without a 'fuss' ?

On the GB rail network, you'd be allowed to board the train without penalty. I can't speak for other countries or other products, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion! I've not had a problem with a Clarity Card from any European operator (except Renfe), so you may want to consider one of those perhaps.

Back to railways, fortunately the Swedish railway operators' online systems and TVMs do accept a UK card, as even large stations there have no booking office. I have never had a valid eticket declined on SJ which cannot be said for this country, which is why I only use etickets here for advances - too many 'computer says no' types seem to work for UK ToCs.

If you have been involved in a dispute, please create a thread (if you've not already done so) and link to it here.

Staff acting inappropriately is not a reason not to use e-tickets and indeed I've had fewer instances of valid tickets being rejected on e-tickets than on paper tickets.

I accept that the way things are going the opportunity to use physical tickets on the railway will continually reduce - I am not lookmg forward to the ensuing 'discussions' with those people who think electronic systems are somehow infallible.

Can you elaborate?

No, but rail enthusiasts seem to be disproportionately full of people who are cautious about the above issues, as compared to the general public. Quite why I'm not sure.

I think a significant proportion of enthusiasts have a nostalgic preference for physical tickets. In all honesty though printing a PDF onto good quality paper is going to last a lot longer than the naff paper tickets that are issued these days! New style paper tickets fade surprisingly quickly and are printed on really low quality paper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd have thought that can't be far off.

A really handy thing, if we are going to have a single ticketing site and account, would be to be able to log into your account at a TVM and print. You'd then be able to get a copy of your ticket even if you'd had everything stolen.

 

[sheff1]

If you have been involved in a dispute, please create a thread (if you've not already done so) and link to it here.

Can you elaborate?

My e ticket dispute was resolved but the event made me steer clear of e tickets other than advances (or the odd esoteric itinerary) for rail travel in this country. I have no problem using etickets (including 'rovers') elsewhere.

As I said, far too many staff take the 'computer cannot be wrong' line and multiple threads on here have referenced etickets being shown as 'used' when availability still remains. It is bad enough encountering clueless barrier staff who insist a paper ticket is not valid because the barrier has rejected it*, no point introducing the chance of such discussions on the train where, as it stands, the portable ticket reading devices cannot read the card tickets issued by the TVMs or booking office.

* I am pretty sure I reported experiences at Southampton & Plymouth on here at the time, there have been many other less serious cases. Fortunately no such thing as barrier staff in Sheffield.

 

[yorkie]

My e ticket dispute was resolved but the event made me steer clear of e tickets other than advances (or the odd esoteric itinerary) for rail travel in this country. I have no problem using etickets (including 'rovers') elsewhere.

But the same logic could be made for steering clear of the format that was 'new' around 10 years ago when @gnolife had all his tickets confiscated by a revenue protection officer because they didn't recognise the (then) new format?

As I said, far too many staff take the 'computer cannot be wrong' line and multiple threads on here have referenced etickets being shown as 'used' when availability still remains.

I do not believe that is the case; you are referring to m-tickets!

I have long campaigned against m-tickets and have argued that they have harmed the reputation of e-tickets as some people confuse the two, and this is another example of that happening.

You are totally right that this is unacceptable and the awful m-ticket format is inherently to blame.

It is bad enough encountering clueless barrier staff who insist a paper ticket is not valid because the barrier has rejected it*, no point introducing the chance of such discussions on the train where, as it stands, the portable ticket reading devices cannot read the card tickets issued by the TVMs or booking office.

* I am pretty sure I reported experiences at Southampton & Plymouth on here at the time, there have been many other less serious cases. Fortunately no such thing as barrier staff in Sheffield.

I don't see how the argument would be any different whether it is an e-ticket or a printed ticket.

These days at most major ticket offices that I've encountered, a paper ticket is a barcode enabled ticket anyway so there is no fundamental difference between the two, from a readability point of view. If the staff can't read an e-ticket's barcode then they can't read a till roll paper ticket barcode either as it's the same thing!

 

[Hadders]

I attended a sporting event in Sweden a couple of weeks ago. I attempted to buy a ticket online but found the system would not accept a UK bank card, so I went to to the ticket office at the stadium who sold me a paper ticket. If there had been no ticket office how would I have gained access to the event without a 'fuss' ?

That's a pretty niche situation to be fair. I'm pretty sure the ticket you'd have been issued with an eticket, i.e. a ticket with a barcode that was scanned on entry to the event.

Back to railways, fortunately the Swedish railway operators' online systems and TVMs do accept a UK card, as even large stations there have no booking office. I have never had a valid eticket declined on SJ which cannot be said for this country, which is why I only use etickets here for advances - too many 'computer says no' types seem to work for UK ToCs.

I've had CCST tickets declined and I've had etickets declined. It happens sometimes with out complex ticketing system, especially if you try and start or finish short or break your journey.

I accept that the way things are going the opportunity to use physical tickets on the railway will continually reduce - I am not lookmg forward to the ensuing 'discussions' with those people who think electronic systems are somehow infallible.

You will still be able to get physical tickets but physical tickets will be printed on paper till roll tickets and have barcodes which you will use to operate ticket barriers. Staff will scan the barcode when doing ticket inspections.

What will change is that there will be fewer traditional ticket offices but that doesn't mean you won't be able to get a physical ticket, if that's what you want.

 

[alistairlees]

I do think a lot of people are seeing online-purchased eTicket vs station-purchased physical ticket as a binary thing. In reality it won't be; you will be able to purchase most tickets from whichever of these you prefer.

As now, most stations will have TVMs; and some (though probably fewer than today) will have booking offices. Eventually they will all issue barcode tickets, rather than CCST (orange magstripe tickets) - but they will still be physical tickets. Techincally they will be Paper Roll Tickets (PRT). I appreciate that some forum members don't like these, but they will help to reduce costs in several ways, as well as being recyclable. Where (as now) stations don't have either a TVM or a booking office, then you will be able to buy a physical barcode ticket on the train. No-one is going to be forced to have a phone or internet access to buy a ticket!

For those people who are comfortable buying online, and using the barcode ticket on their phone (or a print out of the barcode ticket) to travel with, then this will (of course) continue to be an option. All products (ticket types) and all routes will soon be available in this way. Technically these will be either eTickets or (mostly for seasons) sTickets - but in both cases they will be barcode tickets. You don't have to do this though - you remain free to go to a station and buy your tickets there. As some members have observed, buying online and using a phone is now by far the most popular method of ticket fulfilment for customers.

People will also be able to use contactless pay as you go on a wider part of the network; and ITSO smartcards for almost any journey / ticket type.

I expect that ticket on departure (ToD) will be dead within a few years. The old self-print tickets format is being discontinued (in a couple of months). And hopefully m-tickets will be discontinued as a format in a couple of years.

 

[yorkie]

@alistairlees thanks for the detailed and clear summary

 

[XAM2175]

I do not believe that is the case; you are referring to m-tickets!

I have long campaigned against m-tickets and have argued that they have harmed the reputation of e-tickets as some people confuse the two, and this is another example of that happening.

You are totally right that this is unacceptable and the awful m-ticket format is inherently to blame.

It is possible that they're describing a situation where, using an e-Ticket rather than an m-Ticket, the examiner has scanned the ticket and misinterpreted a previous scan record from earlier in the journey as being evidence that the ticket is being fraudulently re-used. I have a faint recollection of reading a post or two here mentioning such a situation (possibly after a break of journey), but I expect that increasing familiarity with e-Tickets amongst staff should reduce the risk of recurrence.

 

[Merseysider]

I’ve lost count of the amount of times a ticket office has given me a 16-25 discounted ticket when I’ve explicitly shown and asked for a 26-30 discounted fare. The ticket then needing to be reissued or endorsed takes more time, by which point I could have already used the TVM or bought an e-ticket online and got the right ticket first time. The ticket offices by mine are unreliable too - Erdington has been closed a few times during “open” hours recently and on my most recent trip to New Street station (Saturday afternoon) there was a grand total of 2 (!) members of Avanti staff in the ticket office, one of whom was a newbie being trained! Much quicker and less faff just to buy an e-ticket on my phone.

 

[gnolife]

I’ve lost count of the amount of times a ticket office has given me a 16-25 discounted ticket when I’ve explicitly shown and asked for a 26-30 discounted fare.

I've had that a lot of times for that - I use a paper 16-25, my partner uses a digital 26-30, we've made a few journeys this month where I get the full third off, and he should have a reduction to the £12 minimum, but the booking office has applied 16-25s to both of us.

 

[AM9]

I'd have thought that can't be far off.

Personally, I don't have a problem with tickets that use other than mag stripe encoding. I've used optically coded tickets on ticket rolls and print at home. However, travelling by train only requires a means to pay for a ticket, nowhere does any requirement exist for a digital device or an ability to print, the nearest to a digital device that can be considered reasonable (and then only for lower cost journeys) is to require a contactless bank card. For any other journey, it shall be sufficient for the traveller to turn up at a station and purchase a ticket to travel. If TVMs can do that for any likely journey, then that is OK for me.
I don't accept that sporting events are relevant as they are lifestyle pursuits, so there is no absolute need to take part like there is to travel to (say) a hospital appointment. In a similar way, the demographic for air travel is very different to rail, and generally part of a leisure activity. Those who regularly fly in connection with their job are in the minority overall, and likely to be far less using that mode in the future as air travel becomes unsustainable.

 

[AlbertBeale]

What, like my parents in their 70s? They're never off the Internet. The generations that don't use it are, to be blunt, rapidly dying off.

The fact that someone uses the internet all the time, and has been using - and sometimes programming - computers for 50+ years, and likes many aspects of technology, and has a scientific background, does not mean that they'll be someone who likes on-line purchasing or electronic tickets or using mobile phones. Possibly because of my experience of technology and its political and social context (not despite my background), I don't carry a mobile phone, I don't do financial transactions on-line, I don't have cards with contactless facilities, and if I'm not allowed to pay for something in cash when I want to then I take my business elsewhere.

 

[yorkie]

It is possible that they're describing a situation where, using an e-Ticket rather than an m-Ticket, the examiner has scanned the ticket and misinterpreted a previous scan record from earlier in the journey as being evidence that the ticket is being fraudulently re-used. I have a faint recollection of reading a post or two here mentioning such a situation (possibly after a break of journey), but I expect that increasing familiarity with e-Tickets amongst staff should reduce the risk of recurrence.

I don't recall hearing of any such instances with e-tickets. On the contrary, such incidents have occurred with paper tickets and some staff have occasionally even been known to attempt to alter the expiry date on such tickets!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

... if I'm not allowed to pay for something in cash when I want to then I take my business elsewhere.

There are no proposals to disallow the use of cash for rail tickets.

 

[Runningaround]

This is based on assumptions about people and technology that don't always apply in the real world.

Not everyone has a digital device.
Not everyone with a digital device has a printer.
Not everyone with a digital device feels secure about making financial transactions online.
Not everyone can operate a ticket machine.
Digital devices are not infallible.
Wifi is not infallible.

Hardly any station has a ticket office, hardly any guard(could be none) sells a card sized ticket that operates a London Underground ticket barrier, the sooner they do ticket offices will be even more redundant.
Why not utilise ticket staff more efficiently instead of them manning a window that sees a train every two hours that already has someone who can sell tickets on board, send them out with machines and target busy stations and trains.
Simplify tickets and sell them in Post Offices this is where you'll find those refusing to adapt and insist on withdrawing their weekly cash from a counter and stuff it their handbag/wallet. Lose cash you will be lucky to get that back, lose a phone bank card and cancel it and claim for any loss, insure it and get a new phone.
And if your at the time of live where you've never used the technology, just think phones have a screen where you can make the print bigger, you can't do that with a piece of paper.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There are no proposals to disallow the use of cash for rail tickets.

Indeed - and I wasn't implying that was the case. I was just adding my frequent preference for buying in cash (in general) to the list of reasons why some people here seem to think people like me are mad/stupid/old-fashioned/whatever...

I'd most certainly expect that basic pubic services like rail travel would never dream of prohibiting the use of cash!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

Hardly any station has a ticket office, hardly any guard(could be none) sells a card sized ticket that operates a London Underground ticket barrier, the sooner they do ticket offices will be even more redundant.
Why not utilise ticket staff more efficiently instead of them manning a window that sees a train every two hours that already has someone who can sell tickets on board, send them out with machines and target busy stations and trains.
Simplify tickets and sell them in Post Offices this is where you'll find those refusing to adapt and insist on withdrawing their weekly cash from a counter and stuff it their handbag/wallet. Lose cash you will be lucky to get that back, lose a phone bank card and cancel it and claim for any loss, insure it and get a new phone.
And if your at the time of live where you've never used the technology, just think phones have a screen where you can make the print bigger, you can't do that with a piece of paper.

Why be so pejorative about people who make a different choice? "Refusing to adapt" sounds like you're criticising those who make different judgements. Some technological changes are for the better, some not. I make my choice in each case based on my own principles, not on a blanket "tech change is good", nor indeed "tech change is bad", basis. Also, in terms of people drawing out cash - there are plenty of people who are sufficiently poor that they can only budget reliably enough to avoid debt by physically having the amount they can spend in their hand to keep track of when they have to stop spending. Have you never seen a poor person in a shop, when the bill is added up, having to put some items back because they're running out of money? (The only reason that never happened to me, at times when I was on the breadline, is that my mental arithmetic is pretty good and I always know exactly what my shopping comes to before I get to the till.)

 

[Runningaround]

Indeed - and I wasn't implying that was the case. I was just adding my frequent preference for buying in cash (in general) to the list of reasons why some people here seem to think people like me are mad/stupid/old-fashioned/whatever...

I'd most certainly expect that basic pubic services like rail travel would never dream of prohibiting the use of cash!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==



Why be so pejorative about people who make a different choice? "Refusing to adapt" sounds like you're criticising those who make different judgements. Some technological changes are for the better, some not. I make my choice in each case based on my own principles, not on a blanket "tech change is good", nor indeed "tech change is bad", basis. Also, in terms of people drawing out cash - there are plenty of people who are sufficiently poor that they can only budget reliably enough to avoid debt by physically having the amount they can spend in their hand to keep track of when they have to stop spending. Have you never seen a poor person in a shop, when the bill is added up, having to put some items back because they're running out of money? (The only reason that never happened to me, at times when I was on the breadline, is that my mental arithmetic is pretty good and I always know exactly what my shopping comes to before I get to the till.)

I find it amusing that someone so against using new technology has registered to a forum on the internet. Buying a ticket online is just as simple.
Bank Accounts can be set to no overdraft so you can only withdraw what you have so no need to get into debt by going over, a card being declined is like having nothing in your wallet, you can check the balance at anytime at an atm, far quicker and safer than having to rummage around in your pocket for loose change, the new notes are incredibly slippery, lose a card get it cancelled, and you may have a chance to get it back, lose your last £10 note it's gone that's it.
And a library will print you a ticket for free if you don't own a device and can do you a back up copy.

 

[alxndr]

At many major locations these are no longer available; if you use a ticket office these days you are generally going to get a 'till roll' style barcode ticket, which is basically a printed version of an e-ticket which is printed for you (with no electronic backup).

That may be the case but I've only ever personally seen it once. If it becomes more common in the areas that I travel in I may find that my preference alters towards e-tickets (more likely I'll just carry my wallet more often to keep them fresh in).

That's fine but your choice is between having a barcode ticket printed for you with no backup or having a digital ticket which you can choose to print yourself.

Currently my choice is credit card stock, digital ticket, or printed version of an e-ticket. None of the ticket offices I use, or the guards ticket machines on the trains I use, produce bog roll tickets. I am well aware of the pros and cons of each, I don't need to hear why my decision is a bad one.

As I've said before, I think the rail industry should enable TVMs to print physical copies of e-tickets; this would destroy all the arguments against e-tickets compared to the paper equivalents.

Agreed on this point.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I find it amusing that someone so against using new technology has registered to a forum on the internet. Buying a ticket online is just as simple.
Bank Accounts can be set to no overdraft so you can only withdraw what you have so no need to get into debt by going over, a card being declined is like having nothing in your wallet, you can check the balance at anytime at an atm, far quicker and safer than having to rummage around in your pocket for loose change, the new notes are incredibly slippery, lose a card get it cancelled, and you may have a chance to get it back, lose your last £10 note it's gone that's it.
And a library will print you a ticket for free if you don't own a device and can do you a back up copy.

I'm not "so against using new technology" - that's the whole point! But I choose what I use and what I don't use, rather than just using it (or just not using it) unthinkingly in a blanket way. I treat new tech the same way as I judge "old tech", and many other facets of society and commerce, when deciding whether (on moral, financial, ethical, political, convenience, egalitarian, social, environmental, privacy, security, and other grounds) to decide to use it or not.

Whether or not buying a ticket online is simple is a matter of opinion, and varies from person to person. I happen to find just handing over money and being given a ticket - at a station or anywhere else where ticketing is relevant - the least hassle. And in any case I didn't suggest that "simplicity" is the key reason for my choices. And the idea that I should need to think about absurdities like getting a library to print me a back-up copy, and so on, is ridiculous and convoluted - it's precisely a case of technological changes adding complexity rather than reducing it. If I want a ticket, I walk up and buy it, and get on the train (or whatever the ticket is for) - for me that's the essence of simplicity.

A card being declined is not at all like having nothing in your wallet. Some people like to be sure whether they can pay for something before trying to ... many poor and vulnerable people find their poverty embarrassing and would rather like to know in advance whether they can afford something. I happen to know exactly what I have in my bank account, pretty much down to the last penny; but many people don't, and having the money they have available for their shopping physically in front of them is the least stressful way of keeping track.

I find much of this discussion puzzling. I don't tell others here how they should buy their train tickets - if I think their judgement is wrong, I mostly keep my disapproval to myself. But some people seem to feel threatened if others of us haven't chosen to go down the same path as they have. I wonder whether some people are so uncertain of their own choices, or realise that they haven't thought through the logic of their position, that they feel compelled to have a go at people who've made a different choice. Why do some people get so agitated if others prefer something different? Why don't they accept that people might have their reasons...?

 

[jfollows]

I find much of this discussion puzzling. I don't tell others here how they should buy their train tickets - if I think their judgement is wrong, I mostly keep my disapproval to myself. But some people seem to feel threatened if others of us haven't chosen to go down the same path as they have. I wonder whether some people are so uncertain of their own choices, or realise that they haven't thought through the logic of their position, that they feel compelled to have a go at people who've made a different choice. Why do some people get so agitated if others prefer something different? Why don't they accept that people might have their reasons...?

That's what puzzles me, also. I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a physical ticket, as the thread title says. But this discussion has been done to death on this forum, and there are a lot of interesting comments and observations, but they include people almost being shouted down for being "wrong" in some way because of their preferences. I use e-tickets also, I haven't had a problem with them, but I still don't prefer them, given the choice. I'm happy to go into my reasons, but again these just end up being fuel to the fire of those who think I'm wrong again.
As I see it, e-tickets are the way of the future, they're also the way of the present, and a lot of passengers prefer using them to the more traditional methods, but there will always be some of us who don't. At the moment we often have a choice and we all choose accordingly, and we may have to live with not having the choice in the future. It won't be the end of the world for me, but I'm unlikely to change my preference.