Why I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a physical ticket

[Bletchleyite]

I am a retired I.T. manager and as others have said on here I would go for a paper ticket every time. We are led to believe we are old fashioned but I would ask to who's advantage is it to have tickets printed electronically. Think about it, an electronic ticket gives you the expence and responsibility of dispaying or printing your own ticket, using your data or your printer. You have to have a working phone, good mobile reception and a good battery. Because it could be that you end up with a criminal
record for not being able to show a ticket on your device.

The primary advantage of a mobile based ticket is that you can purchase it whenever you like, not only at a specific location. I've even purchased one on board, though that's only strictly allowed prior to departure, so it's best to be ready to get off if you can't get the transaction to work. A more usual use-case is on the bus to the station or walking there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2022 ==

Is technology good…?

That's an example of where technology isn't good (there isn't really much that's good about SNCF as a whole, to be honest). Meanwhile, a Swiss or Dutch TVM is super-intuitive. It's a bit like saying that all Android phones are rubbish just because a cheap Chinese tat one you bought for £50 is.

 

[yorkie]

Ive just had the pleasure of sncf tvm…

it starts out easy enough, select start, destination, date..
Then select number of passengers, thats where it becomes hard…
For each passenger..

Select login, or guest… (i went for guest)..
Select fare type, next
Select single or return, next
Select age, next
Select discount, next
Select time, next
Select class, next
confirm choice, next
Select fare, next…
Confirm fare, next
Enter phone number, next (compulsory)
Enter emailaddress, next (compulsory)
Repeat starting at “For each passenger“

Enter cash, card or so e French account thing, next
Put in card, wait
Enter pin, wait
Confirm receipt, next (no prompt to prove id or credit card)
Print tickets, next…

Got message in french of some error, my tickets have been emailed for collection…

Check phone
Got collection receipt
Goto new machine,
select collect
Enter collection code
Confirm receipt, next
Print tickets, next…


15 minutes, I collected my 4 Euro tickets for our short journey 9 minutes up the line.

Is technology good…?

Well the machine was out of paper and the email allowed me to print it at another machine..
But the ticket buying process was overtly cumbersome, but the machine stayed open even if it had no paper.

Jury’s out, but I always go for paper tickets, I do long days out, my little one drains the minutes and the battery, I dont have a portable printer when travelling, and go minimal on international travel so carrying excess lithium chargers on planes is preferable.

However be glad our tvms are so less bureaucratic

Meanwhile here in GB, I go to a website I trust, put the details in and have the ticket issued to me often within seconds. The ticket is then able to be forwarded to anyone I am travelling with as a backup, or to any other device I may have with me, or optionally printed and so on... plenty of options available for redundancy.

"Is technology good"? Well you could ask is food good and the answer would be the same; "it depends".

 

[Sm5]

Food for thought, but if you cannot afford a smart phone, or you PAYG and credit is tight, you probably wont have a printer either.

Will that preclude you from using the railway ?
Making it all digital risks railways having a social class divide, or disproportionately ensnaring those classes in a fines/pf trap

 

[yorkie]

Food for thought, but if you cannot afford a smart phone, or you PAYG and credit is tight, you probably wont have a printer either.

Will that preclude you from using the railway ?
Making it all digital risks railways having a social class divide.

Nope; as per above posts, if there is no facility to purchase tickets at your origin you are allowed to board the train and buy at the next opportunity (i.e. on board, or at the interchange or destination as appropriate).

There are many stations that do not have ticket offices, or have restrictive opening hours; passengers are not prevented from using the railway when travelling from those stations. Is anyone suggesting they are?

The primary advantage of a mobile based ticket is that you can purchase it whenever you like, not only at a specific location. I've even purchased one on board, though that's only strictly allowed prior to departure, so it's best to be ready to get off if you can't get the transaction to work. A more usual use-case is on the bus to the station or walking there.

Indeed; I was once on a bus heading towards Leeds and when I was confident of my estimated arrival time, I looked for trains from Leeds to York online, found a cheap train that was running late which I knew I'd be able to make based on the extent of delay and bought it for a cheap price. Had I queued at the ticket office, I may have not made the train and even if I could have made it, I would probably not have been sold an Advance fare for a train which - by that time - would have already been due to depart.

The next train wasn't for ages as it was a Sunday and you know what TPE are like, so I did well to do that.

 

[alistairlees]

Food for thought, but if you cannot afford a smart phone, or you PAYG and credit is tight, you probably wont have a printer either.

Will that preclude you from using the railway ?
Making it all digital risks railways having a social class divide, or disproportionately ensnaring those classes in a fines/pf trap

Please read my post #47 in this thread for what's actually happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Food for thought, but if you cannot afford a smart phone, or you PAYG and credit is tight, you probably wont have a printer either.

Will that preclude you from using the railway ?

No, because TVMs are not going away.

 

[Sm5]

Please read my post #47 in this thread for what's actually happening.

Apologies I didnt see that post,

however it does sound like the french system I just described…

Blacked out the personal details that are in that barcode, including full name, dob etc… Ive used this 6 times this week, same rigmarole, doesnt matter if your first class on a tgv or a regional hop.

tbh I prefer a real ticket, I get why that may become history, and first time I saw a “till receipt” ticket was in 2004 with Virgin Australia.

but it is a till roll with a barcode, I assume tickets like this?

how would this work as a 1 day travelcard in London, combined with a family railcard discount on say a London bus ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The likely solution to the "cross London"/Travelcard issue is that such tickets become ITSO smartcard only, while e-tickets are used for anything else. Though I do wish TfL would install barcode scanners at the main London termini at least.

The till roll thing does look a bit naff, but why waste money?

 

[Sm5]

The likely solution to the "cross London"/Travelcard issue is that such tickets become ITSO smartcard only, while e-tickets are used for anything else. Though I do wish TfL would install barcode scanners at the main London termini at least.

The till roll thing does look a bit naff, but why waste money?

Sadly without simething else, it probably spells the end of our hobby.

Tickets with precise details will become “out of date” once travel is complete and problematic for hanging around stations.
The need to touch in / out regularly results in penalty fares with digital ticketing.

No ones going to care at the barrier or on the phone in a call centre in India disputing the minutia of why your on the platform 3 hours without going anywhere.

It will become a Hostile environment for railway enthusiasts.

 

[yorkie]

Sadly without simething else, it probably spells the end of our hobby.

Tickets with precise details will become “out of date” once travel is complete and problematic for hanging around stations.
The need to touch in / out regularly results in penalty fares.

It will become a Hostile environment for railway enthusiasts.

I've no idea what your argument is to be honest; you'll need to elaborate.

 

[Sm5]

I've no idea what your argument is to be honest; you'll need to elaborate.

If your ticket is a barcode, it will expire will it not ?

So if the till roll barcode doesnt open the barrier, 3 hours after you arrived, is anyone going to be understanding of your reason for being there ?

Similarly if using an “oyster“ or something such like, which is based on touch in/out within set time periods…and could mark “incomplete journeys” where you entered /exited the same station solely to “validate” your time stamp whilst hanging out at that station, but not travelling and results in penalty fares… which you need to explain to someone in India over a phone your reason for it, ie “to watch a Rog 37 on a drag that was an hour late“ which they are just not going to understand…

today, you just put your piece of paper in the machine and wobble on in or out.

its also going to put enthusiasts at risk of discrimination, we already see how trainline shares data with train companies for “unusual travel patterns”… an enthusiast is by definition an unusual traveller… one who goes to random places with journey times that at the barrier will be wildly different to regular travellers.. by several hours in some cases.

tocs dont have sympathy for anyone when it comes to ticketing issues, why would they be understanding of your 20 min journey each to clapham taking 4 hours to exit at Clapham, especially if last week it was the same, and 2 weeks ago looked like the same at Kensington, then Waterloo, then Watford going back months.. looking like a pattern of ticket misuse ?

 

[yorkie]

If your ticket is a barcode, it will expire will it not ?

No more or less so than an old fashined magstripe ticket.

Modern paper tickets are (Aztec) barcode tickets issued on till roll style (paper roll) stock these days.

So if the till roll barcode doesnt open the barrier, 3 hours after you arrived, is anyone going to be understanding of your reason for being there ?

Why would a barcode not open the barrier any more than a magstripe may not open a barrier?

The last time I used a magstripe ticket, it didn't open the barrier! this rarely happens with barcode tickets in my experience, which is that Magstripes are more likely to be rejected at barriers than barcodes.

Similarly if using an “oyster“ or something such like, which is based on touch in/out within set time periods…and could mark “incomplete journeys” where you entered /exited the same station solely to “validate” your time stamp whilst hanging out at that station, but not travelling and results in penalty fares… which you need to explain to someone in India over a phone your reason for it.

This is beyond the scope of this thread; your post is based on a misunderstanding.

There are other threads which discuss the Oyster/Contactless PAYG system, which is not the same concept as e-tickets.

 

[Sm5]

There are other threads which discuss the Oyster/Contactless PAYG system, which is not the same concept as e-tickets.

i’m an enthusiast of nearly 50 years, 60+ countries and 3million miles travel and i’m confused.

What chance a normal person ?

no need answer, when its rolled out, the BBC, Twitter etc will be full of it.. it might be cheap paper, but the media are experts of making money on this kind of stuff.

 

[Haywain]

i’m an enthusiast of nearly 50 years, 60+ countries and 3million miles travel and i’m confused.

What chance a normal person ?

no need answer, when its rolled out, the BBC, Twitter etc will be full of it.. it might be cheap paper, but the media are experts of making money on this kind of stuff.

A normal person won’t behave in the way you want to.

 

[Hadders]

Yes they do. Perhaps you have experienced some which don't, but the majority of booking offices do give this kind of advice to help save passengers money.

Respecfully I have to disagree. Many ticket office staff are excellent and go above and beyond but there is a significant minority who are simply not up to the job.

I've been refused sale of a Gold Card discounted ticket at 09:40 because it's not valid until 10:00 (utter rubbish)
I've been told I couldn't renew my annual season ticket at Kings Cross because the one that's expiring was issued at Stevenage. But Stevenage ticket office had been closed for months...
Ask for a change of route excess, I might as well have asked for a ticket to the moon!

I am a retired I.T. manager and as others have said on here I would go for a paper ticket every time.

That's fine. You will still be able to purchase a paper ticket but in future it'll be a barcode on a piece of paper rather than a magstripe on a credit card size ticket

 

[yorkie]

i’m an enthusiast of nearly 50 years, 60+ countries and 3million miles travel and i’m confused.

What chance a normal person ?

no need answer, when its rolled out, the BBC, Twitter etc will be full of it.. it might be cheap paper, but the media are experts of making money on this kind of stuff.

Right if you've visited that many countries you'll no doubt realise that there are a variety of different fare types available in the world including point to point, area based, and pay as you go (PAYG).

You've brought PAYG into a discussion which is nothing to do with PAYG.

There is no suggestion that any of the things you've feared could happen, will happen.

For the avoidance of doubt, below is what modern paper tickets (containing Aztec barcodes) look like:

PRT ticket

An off-peak day single from Cam & Dursley to Yate costing £5.10 dated 7 November 2017 and printed on a paper roll ticket

www.railforums.co.uk

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/paper-roll-tickets

We are updating the machines used to sell tickets on board our trains, which will now be issued as paper roll tickets similar to a shop till receipt or cinema ticket.

Below is an example of one of our paper roll tickets, the table below explains the information displayed on your ticket.

No	Definition
1	Ticket type
2	Journey destination
3	Information on ticket restrictions
4	Validity dates
5	First Class or Standard ticket
6	Refund policy
7	Ticket price
8	Barcode
9	Information regarding ticket validity

These are issued for point to point or area based tickets and are nothing to do with PAYG fares.

e-tickets are effectively the same thing as the above paper tickets, but issued in electronic format (as PDF files). Users may choose to either show them on any electronic device, or may opt to print them, if they wish. There is no requirement for an internet connection other than when the e-ticket is saved onto the device.

 

[gray1404]

Are we saying that tickets printed off an Avanti TVM (even if booked with another retailer) contain an e-ticket barcode?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are we saying that tickets printed off an Avanti TVM (even if booked with another retailer) contain an e-ticket barcode?

If Avanti TVMs are fulfilling ToD on bog roll, then yes, they will have.

 

[Sm5]

Right if you've visited that many countries you'll no doubt realise that there are a variety of different fare types available in the world including point to point, area based, and pay as you go (PAYG).

You've brought PAYG into a discussion which is nothing to do with PAYG.

There is no suggestion that any of the things you've feared could happen, will happen.

For the avoidance of doubt, below is what modern paper tickets (containing Aztec barcodes) look like:

PRT ticket

An off-peak day single from Cam & Dursley to Yate costing £5.10 dated 7 November 2017 and printed on a paper roll ticket

www.railforums.co.uk

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/paper-roll-tickets

These are issued for point to point or area based tickets and are nothing to do with PAYG fares.

e-tickets are effectively the same thing as the above paper tickets, but issued in electronic format (as PDF files). Users may choose to either show them on any electronic device, or may opt to print them, if they wish. There is no requirement for an internet connection other than when the e-ticket is saved onto the device.

I think i’m getting it,

its basically a portis ticket, with a barcode added, issued from a standing machine.

i’m not going to ask what the cost of such a nationwide purchase, change of machines, disposal of old, training, on going maintenance thereof costs.

i was thinking it was something much more intelligent, indeed I was expecting that, so now i’m thinking this sounds like missed oppourtunity and waste.

i was expecting a smartcard, amongst other tech, but fearful it would be “too smart” on the compute side and inflexible to those without tech.

A bog roll ticket is nothing new, even the Bury line in the late 1980’s had no other way of issuing tickets away from Bury and Manchester.

i prefer a physical ticket, but i’m not necessarily attached to a bloke in an office selling it me or the paper its made from.

i am against the huge sncf data gathering exercise just to buy a bog roll ticket though, or agreeing to its storage for 25 years.

 

[yorkie]

I think i’m getting it,

its basically a portis ticket, with a barcode added, issued from a standing machine.

i’m not going to ask what the cost of such a nationwide purchase, change of machines, disposal of old, training, on going maintenance thereof costs.

i was thinking it was something much more intelligent, indeed I was expecting that, so now i’m thinking this sounds like missed oppourtunity and waste.

Did you read @alistairlees' post (#47)?

i was expecting a smartcard, amongst other tech, but fearful it would be “too smart” on the compute side and inflexible to those without tech.

A bog roll ticket is nothing new, even the Bury line in the late 1980’s had no other way of issuing tickets away from Bury and Manchester.

i prefer a physical ticket, but i’m not necessarily attached to a bloke in an office selling it me or the paper its made from.

i am against the huge sncf data gathering exercise just to buy a bog roll ticket though, or agreeing to its storage for 25 years.

Well, in future (and right now from many locations such as my local ticket office) paper tickets are going to be barcode enabled tickets which are issued on till roll stock (with no backup), or you can get a barcode enabled ticket which works in exactly the same way delivered as an e-ticket which you can optionally print if you want to.

If you're making a short distance journey then there is perhaps no big inconvenience in visiting the ticket office (though it's a faff I am choosing to do without, along with the majority of passengers) but for a longer distance journey e.g. York to Birmingham, which would generally mean I have 3 tickets, it is a faff having loads of pieces of till roll paper tickets in my wallet (3 pieces of paper each way) when I could have one easy PDF! Not to mention the ease of buying the required tickets for the journey in a matter of seconds, in which time I'd have barely walked to the ticket office, let alone (potentially) queued and made my request.

 

[Runningaround]

I think 10 tickets and a credit card receipt is my record off a guard during the introduction of bog roll tickets, they fill your pockets up just ones the size of an ordinary wallet(these will be obsolete soon then) no serrated line to tear them off once used either, the guards on the not yet Bog Roll routes looked in horror at what was coming he looked through all ten to get to the right one as I couldn't be bothered anymore. If they weren't so shiny they might have some use after.

 

[tomuk]

The till roll tickets are just cheap and nasty. I'm sure they could come up with a new eco-friendly barcoded CCSTbut I suppose ISO/IEC 7810 ID-1 is just old hat.

 

[TUC]

The till roll tickets are just cheap and nasty. I'm sure they could come up with a new eco-friendly barcoded CCSTbut I suppose ISO/IEC 7810 ID-1 is just old hat.

It is hard to understand quite why the till roll tickets have been designed to be so large?

 

[Wallsendmag]

It is hard to understand quite why the till roll tickets have been designed to be so large?

The industry is working on reducing the size possibly by turning the print through 90 degrees

 

[The Ham]

Fixing the issue of Railcards; have it that anyone can purchase a rail ticket with a Railcard discount, however for them to be valid you have to link a Railcard to it. Either by linking accounts or by entering the card number on your device and being able to do either (so I can buy a ticket for someone else who has a different Railcard to me, say a child).

Until that's done the ticket shows at not validated. Staff then have the ability to accept tickets which are showing as not validated if a paper card is shown at the same time, otherwise they can validate it by the customer paying the difference (likewise customers can opt to pay the difference up to the point of departure). However the account will be flagged and if this happens too often and the ability for that account to buy Railcard tickets be reviewed.

I still think that having a contactless card which is linked to your account so you (at a TVM) or staff can call up past purchases could be useful. For instance your phone fails, you give then the card, it tells them that you've got a Railcard and a ticket for that train service.

It could also be linked to cross London tickets so you can touch in and touch out without being charged (although for most travel I do there's no saving by having a through ticket over using PAYG to get across London).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The industry is working on reducing the size possibly by turning the print through 90 degrees

They should have a chat with SBB who manage to issue "till roll" type tickets which are the exact same credit card size as the rigid card ones. No barcode to be fair, but that doesn't need them to be quite as big. That said I find they fit the notes part of a wallet fine.

 

[Lucan]

they have put in a security function to verify its you and not your phone thief or someone who's nicked your cards

This is a merchant selling physical stuff that would be delivered to my address, which has not changed all the while I have dealt with them, and it is this merchant who wants the verification, not the bank. The thief would need to nick my house as well as my phone if he were to benefit.

As I said, this is only a £20 purchase for some batteries; it might be more understandable if it were £100s (which I have made without challenge in the past).

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a merchant selling physical stuff that would be delivered to my address, which has not changed all the while I have dealt with them, and it is this merchant who wants the verification, not the bank. The thief would need to nick my house as well as my phone if he were to benefit.

As I said, this is only a £20 purchase for some batteries; it might be more understandable if it were £100s (which I have made without challenge in the past).

When using a stolen or cloned card it's usual to do a couple of small transactions before attempting a bigger one. Therefore this is worth it.

if the SMS is awkward, change to a bank that does it more smoothly, e.g. Monzo via its app.

 

[Lucan]

When using a stolen or cloned card it's usual to do a couple of small transactions before attempting a bigger one.

By placing a mail order to be delivered to not-their-address?? And how would they know that I have an account with that particular merchant? Wouldn't they rather test a stolen card by buying a packet of doughnuts in the high street, to get an immediate result?

 

[Deafdoggie]

By placing a mail order to be delivered to not-their-address?? And how would they know that I have an account with that particular merchant? Wouldn't they rather test a stolen card by buying a packet of doughnuts in the high street, to get an immediate result?

No they wouldn't rather do that. There's likely to be CCTV of them doing that and they may need your PIN, or a cloned card.
Buying online they only need the card numbers, much easier to get. Few delivery drivers check who they're delivering to, only where. It's not unknown for thieves to wait outside in the street when they're expecting a delivery and be in the garden and say "I'll take that, thank you" to the driver who's happy to be away faster.