Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Killingworth]

I think they are different enough for Hitachi to see them as a new AT300 product (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/d...rs-aurora-a-new-hitachi-product/58240.article). This is probably why the Auroras have been designated 810 as opposed to the next number in the 80x series.

I think the main differences will be what Hitachi have done with the “intestines” of the Auroras to compensate for the shorter car length and extra diesel engine - I defer to people with more technical knowledge.

Here's hoping the testing and training goes smoothly.

 

[Doomotron]

Thank you. So no real difference at all, then. Maybe I misinterpreted the phrase "Quite different" to mean something more significant.

What differences did you expect? Or, more importantly, what factors make you hate the AT300s so much that you automatically write off any derivatives, even if they haven't been built yet? Anyway, your obtuse comment threw a spanner in what was quite a good discussion.

This is the modern equivalent of disliking HSTs because 455s are also Mark 3-derived.

 

[Nottingham59]

What differences did you expect? Or, more importantly, what factors make you hate the AT300s so much that you automatically write off any derivatives, even if they haven't been built yet? Anyway, your obtuse comment threw a spanner in what was quite a good discussion.

This is the modern equivalent of disliking HSTs because 455s are also Mark 3-derived.

• I didn't expect any differences, which is why I was surprised to see someone describe them as "quite different" from 80x.
• I don't "hate" AT300 and have never expressed any such opinion on them. Have you confused me with someone else?

 

[91108]

It was me who said I hated them. Actually I think the current 8xx trains look great, they have working aircon and they clearly go fast and so far seem to be reliable. What I hate is the passenger experience. They are not comfortable to ride on for long distances and they have insufficient luggage space. I can’t imagine the shorter 810 will therefore be better in these respects.
As a regular user of the Midland Mainline I will be very happy if the reality proves me wrong.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It was me who said I hated them. Actually I think the current 8xx trains look great, they have working aircon and they clearly go fast and so far seem to be reliable. What I hate is the passenger experience. They are not comfortable to ride on for long distances and they have insufficient luggage space. I can’t imagine the shorter 810 will therefore be better in these respects.
As a regular user of the Midland Mainline I will be very happy if the reality proves me wrong.

The seats are of course going to be different - a widened FISA Lean rather than Fainsa Sophia. Personally though, while I’m happy in either seat in standard, I find the latter to be nicer in first - for example, I would take the first class seat of an LNER Azuma over the shoddy excuse for first class seating on a 745 Flirt anyday.

I also find the 222s have the nicest standard class interior on the British network which will be hard to beat - although until 2020/2021 the ex EMT HSTs used to run some services and they have to have had the nastiest, most dated interior I’ve ever seen.

You do say long distances though, and lets face it - for an “InterCity” operator, EMR really doesn’t travel far. London Nottingham is about 90 minutes and London Sheffield is round about two hours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seats are of course going to be different - a widened FISA Lean rather than Fainsa Sophia. Personally though, while I’m happy in either seat in standard, I find the latter to be nicer in first - for example, I would take the first class seat of an LNER Azuma over the shoddy excuse for first class seating on a 745 Flirt anyday.

I definitely wouldn't. The First Class Sophia is almost as awful as the Standard one. I was going to upgrade once, and after about 30 seconds of sitting in one I went back to Standard; not worth the money, the base is too thin (as per the Standard seat) and utterly unsupportive.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I definitely wouldn't. The First Class Sophia is almost as awful as the Standard one. I was going to upgrade once, and after about 30 seconds of sitting in one I went back to Standard; not worth the money, the base is too thin (as per the Standard seat) and utterly unsupportive.

Each to their own.

 

[hexagon789]

How many seat wibble threads are we on now? Is it more or less than a few hundred thousand...

 

[91108]

I also find the 222s have the nicest standard class interior on the British network which will be hard to beat - although until 2020/2021 the ex EMT HSTs used to run some services and they have to have had the nastiest, most dated interior I’ve ever seen.

You do say long distances though, and lets face it - for an “InterCity” operator, EMR really doesn’t travel far. London Nottingham is about 90 minutes and London Sheffield is round about two hours.

I agree on the 222 standard class interior, it’s worn out but actually reasonably comfortable and 2 hours is the max journey length. In fact Nottingham to Liverpool is longer, time wise, than Sheffield to London.
Peterborough to York was my most recent ecml journey on an Azuma and that was more than long enough to sit in standard. I really wouldn’t want to go Kings Cross to Edinburgh on one. Performance wise they feel excellent, we left Newark Northgate heading north and it was motoring by the flat crossing, pretty impressive.

 

[superalbs]

I definitely wouldn't. The First Class Sophia is almost as awful as the Standard one. I was going to upgrade once, and after about 30 seconds of sitting in one I went back to Standard; not worth the money, the base is too thin (as per the Standard seat) and utterly unsupportive.

Personally when I had a First Class ticket on the Heathrow Express (as part of another journey), I found the First Class Sophia to be worse than the padded ironing boards in second. Even with the recline!

The standard class Sophia design is even worse!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

How many seat wibble threads are we on now? Is it more or less than a few hundred thousand...

At least I’m offering a fresh perspective to the cliché “they’re too uncomfortable” we’re used to by saying they’re better than the FISAS

It’s a shame plug doors weren’t included in the modifications to the design for the 810s. The sliding pocket doors date the current 80x (and Shinkansens) terribly and lose the nice streamlined look that 390s and 397s have.

 

[samuelmorris]

The seat debate comes up incessantly for a reason, the vast majority of new railway seats in the UK are dreadful. Even the 'better' options are, I'd say in the opinions of the vast majority, inferior to what came a decade before. Everybody just wants 'the least bad', so discussions about seating with new stock are unfortunately inevitable. The 222 is one of the last examples of 'when train seats were good', before presumably safety & fire resistance regulations outlawed anything that's remotely comfortable!

Perhaps it's because I wasn't in enthusiast circles back then, but I don't remember seat comfort even really coming up in the old days, before the advent of, for example, Fainsa seating in the UK. There was no need to discuss it much because it wasn't really a problem.

 

[py_megapixel]

At least I’m offering a fresh perspective to the cliché “they’re too uncomfortable” we’re used to by saying they’re better than the FISAS

It’s a shame plug doors weren’t included in the modifications to the design for the 810s. The sliding pocket doors date the current 80x (and Shinkansens) terribly and lose the nice streamlined look that 390s and 397s have.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seat debate comes up incessantly for a reason, the vast majority of new railway seats in the UK are dreadful. Even the 'better' options are, I'd say in the opinions of the vast majority, inferior to what came a decade before. Everybody just wants 'the least bad', so discussions about seating with new stock are unfortunately inevitable. The 222 is one of the last examples of 'when train seats were good', before presumably safety & fire resistance regulations outlawed anything that's remotely comfortable!

Perhaps it's because I wasn't in enthusiast circles back then, but I don't remember seat comfort even really coming up in the old days, before the advent of, for example, Fainsa seating in the UK. There was no need to discuss it much because it wasn't really a problem.

I certainly posted on uk.railway about my strong dislike of the InterCity 70 seat.

But that aside, the reason it comes up is that it's the biggest contributor to comfort. A passenger vehicle with no seats in it is just a metal tube with windows, and there's little to choose between those unless one has a particularly bad feature e.g. unreliable aircon, or a particularly good feature e.g. level boarding.

Yes, the 810 vehicles are 2m shorter than the other 80x ones, but most people won't notice - I never noticed when I was younger that Mk2s were 3m shorter than Mk3s, for instance. They will however notice the seats and their layout (with respect to windows and how many tables there are) and spacing.

 

[py_megapixel]

There are plenty of other things which aren't necessarily stand-outs but affect the quality of the experience. For example in the early 2000s Alstom and Bombardier seemed to have some kind of ridiculous competition going on to see who could design an overhead luggage shelf with the smallest amount of useful space.

Thankfully the IETs have solved that problem. There's tons of overhead space there. You can even just about get a suitcase up there (a hand-luggage sized one)

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of other things which aren't necessarily stand-outs but affect the quality of the experience. For example in the early 2000s Alstom and Bombardier seemed to have some kind of ridiculous competition going on to see who could design an overhead luggage shelf with the smallest amount of useful space.

Thankfully the IETs have solved that problem. There's tons of overhead space there. You can even just about get a suitcase up there (a hand-luggage sized one)

You can more than "just about" get a hold sized bag up there. My record is a 120 litre rucksack, easily. Same with the CAFs and Desiros.

 

[hexagon789]

At least I’m offering a fresh perspective to the cliché “they’re too uncomfortable” we’re used to by saying they’re better than the FISAS

I'll give you that at least. Only just though, only just...

The seat debate comes up incessantly for a reason, the vast majority of new railway seats in the UK are dreadful. Even the 'better' options are, I'd say in the opinions of the vast majority, inferior to what came a decade before. Everybody just wants 'the least bad', so discussions about seating with new stock are unfortunately inevitable. The 222 is one of the last examples of 'when train seats were good', before presumably safety & fire resistance regulations outlawed anything that's remotely comfortable!

Perhaps it's because I wasn't in enthusiast circles back then, but I don't remember seat comfort even really coming up in the old days, before the advent of, for example, Fainsa seating in the UK. There was no need to discuss it much because it wasn't really a problem.

You obviously haven't read the letters sections of old Modern Railways and Railway Magazine!

Plenty of declining seat and comfort wibble...

 

[samuelmorris]

Perhaps not, but modern railways readers aren't so much the disinterested public. And the disinterested public have had plenty to say on the subject in recent times!

Anyway, I shan't derail the thread any further. I do still quite enjoy travelling on 80x units, even if the build quality is a little uninspiring. I'll be very curious to see how the 810s are received versus their predecessors.

 

[St. Paddy]

How many seat wibble threads are we on now? Is it more or less than a few hundred thousand...

Similar amount to livery threads, it amazes me how many words some people can use to say whether they like/dislike something.

 

[Mollman]

I think they are different enough for Hitachi to see them as a new AT300 product (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/d...rs-aurora-a-new-hitachi-product/58240.article). This is probably why the Auroras have been designated 810 as opposed to the next number in the 80x series.

I think the main differences will be what Hitachi have done with the “intestines” of the Auroras to compensate for the shorter car length and extra diesel engine - I defer to people with more technical knowledge.

I think the length is the main reason it is a 810 rather than 80X as the stop boards for current IEP / AT300s is a generically worded '80X Stop' rather than saying '800/801/802 Stop'

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the length is the main reason it is a 810 rather than 80X as the stop boards for current IEP / AT300s is a generically worded '80X Stop' rather than saying '800/801/802 Stop'

One thing I don't entirely understand is why we have so many different 80x classes, when in reality most are more logically subclasses. All the 26m bi-modes are basically the same bar train length, and all the 26m EMUs are basically the same bar length and if they have a donkey engine or batteries, so that's just two for those plus a new class for these as they are very different.

 

[Trainbike46]

Out of curiosity, will the 810s and other various 80x classes all be able to work in multiple? That may be useful if in the future there is redeployment of these trains

 

[Mollman]

One thing I don't entirely understand is why we have so many different 80x classes, when in reality most are more logically subclasses. All the 26m bi-modes are basically the same bar train length, and all the 26m EMUs are basically the same bar length and if they have a donkey engine or batteries, so that's just two for those plus a new class for these as they are very different.

Without wanting to go too OT I can understand the current in service designations as 800 and 801 are DfT spec units whilst 802 and 803 are 'private' spec, it is the AWC units I don't get as they are just 802 and 803s surely.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

HT, TPE 802 and Lumo 803s will, but that is deliberate as they are (technically) ”owned” and operated by the same company and the sets can be used to rescue each other. However they wont multi with LNER or GWR sets due to TMS program differences. rescuing and towing of course is another matter

Out of curiosity, will the 810s and other various 80x classes all be able to work in multiple? That may be useful if in the future there is redeployment of these trains

 

[YorksLad12]

One thing I don't entirely understand is why we have so many different 80x classes, when in reality most are more logically subclasses. All the 26m bi-modes are basically the same bar train length, and all the 26m EMUs are basically the same bar length and if they have a donkey engine or batteries, so that's just two for those plus a new class for these as they are very different.

Without wanting to go too OT I can understand the current in service designations as 800 and 801 are DfT spec units whilst 802 and 803 are 'private' spec, it is the AWC units I don't get as they are just 802 and 803s surely.

Indeed, but it's worse than that. Until the 805s ('5' for the number of cars) came along, all the 8xx bi-modes were even numbers and the 8xx all-electric sets were odd numbers. As someone interested in taxonomies that decision really got my goat! At least the 802s have several subclasses.

On topic: I've not much reason to do Sheffield-St Pancras at the moment but I'll be interested to see/feel the difference from my usual Azuma when the 810s come in to service.

 

[Skymonster]

The quote I like best, when they were talking about quality, is “…working with Hitachi who have a quite good record of delivering a quality product…”

Quite good? Hardly a ringing endorsement…

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Great to see the 810s taking shape and this confirms these will have "beige-bronze" ends instead of bold yellow also it looks like the headlights will be rounded than horizontal (similar to Stadler 745s-755s) compared to the original artist's drawing.

 

[43102EMR]

The quote I like best, when they were talking about quality, is “…working with Hitachi who have a quite good record of delivering a quality product…”

Quite good? Hardly a ringing endorsement…

Guessing the crack situation may have reduced that rating from good…

 

[XCTurbostar]

Found this picture on LinkedIn, not sure if it shows anything we didn’t already know..

IMAGE: Purple 810 bodyside being assembled inside of the factory. Several trains are visible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite a good design decision there to have the doors open into the vehicle end and thus the bit taken off the passenger saloon length is the bad bit by the door pocket with no armrest or window!