Why I prefer to use a ticket office and obtain a physical ticket

[Deafdoggie]

You haven't answered the question, - it doesn't matter how many other useful things that you might use a smartphone for, it still has a cost. The costs associated with a car are also a strawman argument, @Xenophon PCDGS might walk to the station.

I did answer the question. Post 346

What you mean is that some people find that faster and easier. If there are people whose views/experiences are different from yours, please accept that and don't deny the reality of their experience. There are many different judgements/values/backgrounds/abilities/preferences involved here. If someone comes to a different conclusion, they're not "wrong" and needing to be told they're misguided or stupid of don't understand; they've just come to a different conclusion, which is as valid for them as your conclusion is for you.

I never claimed everyone did. The answer was in relation to why people buy online and if they only use their phone for that

 

[ashkeba]

PDFs are either linked or attached (I forget which) to the emails if you prefer those, plus a link for an Apple Wallet PKPASS and probably a Google Wallet whatever-that-is. But the easy thing to do is to just show it in the app, though this won't display on a locked phone I don't see why unlocking it is much of a hardship.

It is yet another thing to do on the approach to the gateline and holding out an unlocked phone in a crowded city place is a bit risky.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is yet another thing to do on the approach to the gateline

What, like getting out your wallet and removing a paper ticket from it?

and holding out an unlocked phone in a crowded city place is a bit risky.

No worse than getting your wallet out to retrieve a paper ticket.

 

[ashkeba]

You haven't answered the question, - it doesn't matter how many other useful things that you might use a smartphone for, it still has a cost. The costs associated with a car are also a strawman argument, @Xenophon PCDGS might walk to the station.

Walking to the station would cost far more time, a bit less money.

What, like getting out your wallet and removing a paper ticket from it?

Indeed. E tickets can and should do better. Trainline's app is not as good as it should be and is failing to deliver some easy wins.

No worse than getting your wallet out to retrieve a paper ticket.

It is a bit because you never hand your wallet to gateline staff.

 

[alxndr]

What, like getting out your wallet and removing a paper ticket from it?

No worse than getting your wallet out to retrieve a paper ticket.

Take ticket out of wallet when you're not feeling crowded, replace ticket when not crowded. A ticket isn't permanently attached to a wallet.

 

[The Ham]

Risk assessment covers both the probability of something happening, and the consequences when it does.

Yes, my phone dies rarely, but it does happen. And it happens even when I'm not to blame by scrolling through Facebook all day

But take that small risk, and multiply it by the revenue protection consequences to me if my phone dies. That's a combination that I think is too strongly weighted against me, in favour of the railway, so I'm not prepared to accept it. The railway could fix this by giving people the benefit of the doubt, or allowing alternative methods of validating my ticket (quoting a booking code, giving a name and address, etc.) in the event that my phone does die. If, as is being suggested here, I'm just unlucky, and the population-level risk of a phone dying is so small, and it happens so infrequently, then allowing this shouldn't be a big problem to the railway, should it? For as long as I can be threatened with penalty fares and prosecution if my phone dies, I will always be nervous about relying on my phone for railway ticketing.

For a one-off occasional long-distance journey, especially one where I might want to spend a while planning it and looking at different time versus price trade-offs (major pain to do that at a ticket office!), I absolutely don't mind buying online, using an e-ticket, and printing out a backup in order to mitigate the phone-dying-risk. But I would prefer that the railway took a more reasonable approach to how it treated me if my phone died so I didn't have to make the physical backup.

For a daily commute (OK, maybe weekly since Covid), where I don't plan the journey in advance, printing out the backup every time is a big hassle. So the old-fashioned methods win, and the ticket office gets my custom. And after doing that a few times, you start to remember that a ticket office is really quite efficient for basic everyday purchases.


I feel that the risk of that happening is much lower than the risk of my phone dying. The consequences to me in both situations (from a revenue protection perspective) are identical. Therefore risk*consequence means that I'm happier using paper tickets than I am a phone Of course, the railway could change that balance by adjusting the consequences.

The terms of carriage should be updated to allow you to present an e-ticket within a certain timeframe to avoid prosecution (like the police have for some car related things).

However such a ticket would need to be purchased before the point of interaction and there could even be an admin charge (say £10).

That would tip the balance of risk in favour of e-tickets, as even if your phone did die or was stolen you'd have a £10 charge as the maximum risk, unlike a physical ticket which once lost would require a full ticket purchase or could leave you with prosecution for the non purchase of a ticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The terms of carriage should be updated to allow you to present an e-ticket within a certain timeframe to avoid prosecution (like the police have for some car related things).

However such a ticket would need to be purchased before the point of interaction and there could even be an admin charge (say £10).

That would tip the balance of risk in favour of e-tickets, as even if your phone did die or was stolen you'd have a £10 charge as the maximum risk, unlike a physical ticket which once lost would require a full ticket purchase or could leave you with prosecution for the non purchase of a ticket.

I think the balance is fairly well tipped in favour of eTickets whatever people on this forum like to think , currently the LNER website is selling 80% of its transactions as eTickets.

 

[David Goddard]

Wheelchair users who remain in their chairs for their journey are entitled to discounts on their tickets, you can not buy these discounted tickets online or from TVMs, so have to use the ticket office.

 

[Ken H]

Take ticket out of wallet when you're not feeling crowded, replace ticket when not crowded. A ticket isn't permanently attached to a wallet.

shirt pocket is where i keep mine.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Wheelchair users who remain in their chairs for their journey are entitled to discounts on their tickets, you can not buy these discounted tickets online or from TVMs, so have to use the ticket office.

Or from Assistance lines or Telesales, who will also book the customer help onto and of off the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a bit because you never hand your wallet to gateline staff.

You never hand your phone to them either. Why would you do that?

 

[Runningaround]

Wheelchair users who remain in their chairs for their journey are entitled to discounts on their tickets, you can not buy these discounted tickets online or from TVMs, so have to use the ticket office.

That's ridiculous, how can you use the service on the Cambrian Line in confidence? There aren't any ticket offices or TVM's between Machynlleth and Pwllheli. You'd be hard pressed to find a station to get you on the train to start and then need to buy it off the guard.
If anything you should be accommodated more by online facilities.

 

[miklcct]

You can charge it for free on most trains and If you just used free public WiFi there is no need for any other cost.

Most trains on the TfL network don't have charging points, and there is nowhere near the stations (including the station and trains) having free WiFi as well.

 

[miklcct]

I think the balance is fairly well tipped in favour of eTickets whatever people on this forum like to think , currently the LNER website is selling 80% of its transactions as eTickets.

How about the figure from commuter TOCs, such as SWR or Southern?

 

[miklcct]

Let me help. I pay £8 per month for a 3GB data package, unlimited calls and unlimited texts. The phone, a mid range one cost about £230 two years ago.

Unfortunately a smartphone rarely goes unbroken during its normal depreciation life (2-3 years).

I have lost a phone and broken the glass of at least 3 phones in the past 4 years, including 2 occasions when I rushed for a bus and the phone fell out of my pocket.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Most trains on the TfL network don't have charging points, and there is nowhere near the stations (including the station and trains) having free WiFi as well.

It's clearly grim in London. I was judging by the standards we have up North. Shops, cafes, pretty much everywhere on the way to the station has free WiFi. I can't think of a supermarket up here that doesn't have free WiFi. Thank goodness I don't live in the barren waste of London.

Unfortunately a smartphone rarely goes unbroken during its normal depreciation life (2-3 years).

I have lost a phone and broken the glass of at least 3 phones in the past 4 years, including 2 occasions when I rushed for a bus and the phone fell out of my pocket.

I've not lost one ever and only broken one (that was only one crack on the screen) so it's really not common at all.

 

[Jim the Jim]

What, like getting out your wallet and removing a paper ticket from it?



No worse than getting your wallet out to retrieve a paper ticket.

I rarely keep my tickets in my wallet, instead in a plastic railcard holder.

 

[AdamWW]

The Czech Republic has a dense railway network with fairly frequent services on many routes.

They say:

How I will get the ticket: ticket in PDF format that you can print out on your printer. You can also display the ticket in PDF format during an inspection on the train on your portable electronic device – e.g. on the screen of your laptop. You can also present the ticket to the conductor displayed on your mobile telephone in the form of a displayed PNG image with a QR code. In the case of inland tickets, instead of presenting a printed ticket you can also just communicate the transaction code, which you will find on the bottom right of the ticket, above the graphic code.

I've just printed out a seat reservation for CD, which looks as if it's provided in the same way as a full e-ticket. Curiously it's loaded with anti-forgery imagery, which seems a little pointless if you can just quote the reservation code.

 

[AM9]

Walking to the station would cost far more time, a bit less money.

Not everybody is a slave to the time taken for everything in their lives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately a smartphone rarely goes unbroken during its normal depreciation life (2-3 years).

I'm sorry but that's nonsense, unless you count minor dents and scratches as "broken".

I have lost a phone and broken the glass of at least 3 phones in the past 4 years, including 2 occasions when I rushed for a bus and the phone fell out of my pocket.

I think you need to either be more careful or invest in a decent ruggedised case and screen and camera protectors. They cost pennies on the usual sources of Chinese tat.

Most trains on the TfL network don't have charging points, and there is nowhere near the stations (including the station and trains) having free WiFi as well.

I'm sorry, that's nonsense too. TfL may not have them (you're hardly on board long enough to need them) but where exactly in London isn't there a Costalottabucks, a Wetherspoons or a Maccy D's within reach? All of those have free wifi and you can probably get it stood outside if you want.

Also, all Tube stations have wifi, I don't think it is free to all but they have deals with some of the mobile networks, certainly I get it free on EE and used to when I was on O2.

I've just printed out a seat reservation for CD, which looks as if it's provided in the same way as a full e-ticket. Curiously it's loaded with anti-forgery imagery, which seems a little pointless if you can just quote the reservation code.

Probably for the same reason as in the UK you get one on a normal ticket blank even if a piece of till roll would do. That is, it's easier that way.

 

[AdamWW]

Probably for the same reason as in the UK you get one on a normal ticket blank even if a piece of till roll would do. That is, it's easier that way.

I realise that my previous post really wasn't at all clear.

I was trying to say that it seemed odd that a ticket is loaded with anti-forgery images when you could bypass them by just quoting the transaction code instead.

But it occurs to me now that maybe with a transaction code they look up the details associated with the booking whereas with a printed out ticket they just have to check your name against the ID.

(Edited to try to make it make more sense).

 

[AM9]

Reply

I've just printed out a seat reservation for CD, which looks as if it's provided in the same way as a full e-ticket. Curiously it's loaded with anti-forgery imagery, which seems a little pointless if you can just quote the reservation code.

If they specifically didn't want to print to standard CCST blanks, it woulld require multiple bland hoppers on the printer or manual feeds from a different pile on the desk. Onne requires additional complaexity on every machine, the other is a recipe for getting it wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reply

If they specifically didn't want to print to standard CCST blanks, it woulld require multiple bland hoppers on the printer or manual feeds from a different pile on the desk. Onne requires additional complaexity on every machine, the other is a recipe for getting it wrong.

Most booking office setups have a till roll printer, don't they?

It's probably not worth doing that, though, as reservations for walk up tickets are a tiny amount of what a booking office does, and for Advances they are part of the ticket and so should have the security features.

 

[AdamWW]

Reply

If they specifically didn't want to print to standard CCST blanks, it woulld require multiple bland hoppers on the printer or manual feeds from a different pile on the desk. Onne requires additional complaexity on every machine, the other is a recipe for getting it wrong.

Not really relevant to what format they choose for print-at home/show on your phone e-tickets.

But in the years of manually fed APTIS machines I don't recall anyone ever sticking the wrong ticket stock in when I bought something.
These days if you had such a scheme the machine would probably recognize what had been stuck in and complain if it was wrong.

 

[johncrossley]

I think the balance is fairly well tipped in favour of eTickets whatever people on this forum like to think , currently the LNER website is selling 80% of its transactions as eTickets.

I thought the "balance" being discussed was the advantage that the rail industry has over the general public when someone is accused of fare evasion (for example, strict liability offences). Although this really isn't anything to do with traditional tickets vs e-tickets and the merits of printing e-tickets or displaying them on a digital screen. If you lose your orange piece of card you have zero proof that you have paid, especially if you paid in cash. So you are arguably "safer" with an e-ticket.

If you want to reduce your chances of getting a criminal record to zero then you had better not travel by train at all. Better to drive instead. Losing your paper ticket by accident gets you a criminal record, but committing a traffic offence by accident, even killing someone on the road, probably won't, unless you were grossly negligent.

Most trains on the TfL network don't have charging points, and there is nowhere near the stations (including the station and trains) having free WiFi as well.

I'm sorry, that's nonsense too. TfL may not have them (you're hardly on board long enough to need them) but where exactly in London isn't there a Costalottabucks, a Wetherspoons or a Maccy D's within reach? All of those have free wifi and you can probably get it stood outside if you want.

Yes, it is very difficult to avoid Wi-Fi in London! A useful source of Wi-Fi in major cities, especially London, are those slim BT Wi-Fi kiosks that have been installed over the last few years.

 

[AdamWW]

If you want to reduce your chances of getting a criminal record to zero then you had better not travel by train at all. Better to drive instead. Losing your paper ticket by accident gets you a criminal record, but committing a traffic offence by accident, even killing someone on the road, probably won't, unless you were grossly neglige

Not to mention when applying for jobs being asked to list any criminal convictions except anything driving related.

Most booking office setups have a till roll printer, don't they?

It's probably not worth doing that, though, as reservations for walk up tickets are a tiny amount of what a booking office does, and for Advances they are part of the ticket and so should have the security features.

I'm pretty sure a few years ago I made reservations at a ticket office and got them printed out on an A4 sheet rather than ticket stock. But maybe I'm imagining it.

 

[317 forever]

The till roll tickets are just cheap and nasty. I'm sure they could come up with a new eco-friendly barcoded CCSTbut I suppose ISO/IEC 7810 ID-1 is just old hat.

Now that I know some of the stations that issue them, I make other arrangements to avoid them as far as possible.

 

[AdamWW]

Now that I know some of the stations that issue them, I make other arrangements to avoid them as far as possible.

Are some stations now issuing only paper tickets? If so does that mean that you can't buy a "maltese cross" cross-London ticket?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Not to mention when applying for jobs being asked to list any criminal convictions except anything driving related.

Why is this? Does it mean that if I want to commit a crime, even a violent one, then providing I'm in control of a car at the time it's not a "real" crime?!

 

[317 forever]

Are some stations now issuing only paper tickets? If so does that mean that you can't buy a "maltese cross" cross-London ticket?

Stockport and (I believe) other Avanti managed stations. I also notice them being sold at Newcastle last year.

Admittedly these are only at ticket offices, not ticket machines.

On an unrelated note, I would feel more confident taking e-tickets if they were direct emails like National Express or hotel bookings, rather than a PDF attachment that for all we know will not even open.