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Is the use of cash dying out?

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MikeWM

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It’s part of a broader economic picture.

Most employers with customer facing jobs, and many more with relatively low paid jobs are struggling to hire staff. U.K. productivity has historically lagged behind our peers. Yet when there are initiatives that significantly improve productivity and free up people into the labour market, eg moving away from cash, automated tills, closing ticket offices, dare I even say DOO (sorry), there are people who find it difficult to accept progress.

Personally I've no objection to progress - from your examples, the majority of trains I get are DOO and I don't care about that, and I always use the automated tills *assuming I can use cash in them, which is becoming more and more difficult*. I look up things on RTT, NR, Traksy etc. regularly and think they are incredibly useful tools, though there are occasions when I would prefer to look at a paper timetable. In the same way I have offline maps of the whole country on the iPad mini I usually have with me - but often I prefer to look at a real-world map.

But what I fundamentally object to is a society where every transaction and every interaction is logged and tracked in some unaccountable centralised way, which is a single and small step away from every transaction and every interaction requiring *permission* from some centralised authority.

I've no issue with some transactions and interactions being so - I have credit cards and debit cards and use them from time to time. But, as I've said already in the context of the incredible government overreach we saw with lockdowns, it isn't hard to see occasions when the ability to do things without being tracked, logged or seeking permission from authority, is incredibly useful, and I'd say fundamental to living in a free society.

To me it isn't just an economic issue. It is - incidentally or deliberately, take your pick, but it is happening - giving the authorities totally unprecedented power to control every detail of our lives. The current government in our current country may not use that ability, but a future one may well do.
 
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Dai Corner

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A number of posts by supporters of e-tickets, card payments etc. seem to think that just because they prefer newer methods, others should be prevented from continuing to use older methods.
I quite like riding on heritage trains and to do so I need to travel to particular places on particular dates and pay premium fares. I don't expect the taxpayer to subsidise my preferences.
 

Spamcan81

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The first question I ask in a shop "do you take cash?" If they don't I take my business elsewhere (posh coffee shops I'm talking to you:'()

In my shop I get asked both if a take cash or if I take card. The answer to both questions is "yes". I give my customers the choice to use their preferred method.
 

MikeWM

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I quite like riding on heritage trains and to do so I need to travel to particular places on particular dates and pay premium fares. I don't expect the taxpayer to subsidise my preferences.

I'm a bit concerned about that argument because it implies all services should be totally bare-bones with nothing that appeals to certain people more than others in an attempt to attract/keep customers. That's not how most businesses work.

But leaving that aside for a moment, are e-tickets etc. actually cheaper to the railway anyway?

A paper ticket requires the paper and ink, and machines to print them. And a mark1 eyeball on the guard, but that is free.

An e-ticket requires software developers to write and maintain websites and apps, guards to have new equipment to read them that needs to be issued, maintained, charged, and eventually replaced, and underlying databases in server farms using vast amounts of electricity, with more software engineers and/or sys-admins required to maintain the databases and the server.

Is that actually saving money? I wonder.
 

Dai Corner

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I'm a bit concerned about that argument because it implies all services should be totally bare-bones with nothing that appeals to certain people more than others in an attempt to attract/keep customers. That's not how most businesses work.

But leaving that aside for a moment, are e-tickets etc. actually cheaper to the railway anyway?

A paper ticket requires the paper and ink, and machines to print them. And a mark1 eyeball on the guard, but that is free.

An e-ticket requires software developers to write and maintain websites and apps, guards to have new equipment to read them that needs to be issued, maintained, charged, and eventually replaced, and underlying databases in server farms using vast amounts of electricity, with more software engineers and/or sys-admins required to maintain the databases and the server.

Is that actually saving money? I wonder.
Paper ticket issuing systems require programming too, and ticket office staff to operate them. They need to be maintained, and repaired if vandalised. They're generally under-utilised, issuing a ticket a minute or maybe only one an hour. A server in a datacentre will deal with thousands of sales an hour. I could go on.
 

Bald Rick

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An e-ticket requires software developers to write and maintain websites and apps, guards to have new equipment to read them that needs to be issued, maintained, charged, and eventually replaced, and underlying databases in server farms using vast amounts of electricity, with more software engineers and/or sys-admins required to maintain the databases and the server.

Is that actually saving money? I wonder.

if it’s not saving money, you can expect Ryanair and easyJet to reintroduce paper tickets pronto.
 

MikeWM

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Paper ticket issuing systems require programming too,

Considerably less though than an active website/app with all sorts of security, verification, etc.

and ticket office staff to operate them. They need to be maintained, and repaired if vandalised. They're generally under-utilised, issuing a ticket a minute or maybe only one an hour. A server in a datacentre will deal with thousands of sales an hour. I could go on.

Perhaps so, and I'm willing to agree it is quite likely it does save some money overall, but the cost certainly isn't zero.


if it’s not saving money, you can expect Ryanair and easyJet to reintroduce paper tickets pronto.

But they already have to have the backend database etc. for all manner of other reasons, whatever format they issue the ticket with. It's not really comparable.
 

nlogax

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An e-ticket requires software developers to write and maintain websites and apps, guards to have new equipment to read them that needs to be issued, maintained, charged, and eventually replaced, and underlying databases in server farms using vast amounts of electricity, with more software engineers and/or sys-admins required to maintain the databases and the server.

Is that actually saving money? I wonder.

The majority of those back-end systems are needed whatever the end format of the ticket. E-tickets in conjunction with apps and websites maintain massive flexibility for the airline and its customers and enable additional revenues (seat upgrades, last minute booking, duty free).

It really isn't so simple as removing e-tickets from the equation.
 

MikeWM

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The majority of those back-end systems are needed whatever the end format of the ticket. E-tickets in conjunction with apps and websites maintain massive flexibility for the airline and its customers and enable additional revenues (seat upgrades, last minute booking, duty free).

It really isn't so simple as removing e-tickets from the equation.

Yes, for airlines, as I just said in the post immediately above yours.

But that doesn't have to apply to railways. If I go to my local ticket office and buy a ticket with cash, that doesn't get logged on any central database. (Probably the fact someone has bought a ticket from A to B goes onto some database of 'tickets sold' somewhere, but there's no identifying information and there's no subsequent tracking of the use of the ticket). I don't see any issue with that.
 

AM9

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if it’s not saving money, you can expect Ryanair and easyJet to reintroduce paper tickets pronto.
Not quite a fair comparion as the number of airline passengers who turn up at airports to buy a ticket is an infinitesimally small proportion of the total. Add to that the checks and clearances for a person to get to airside, selling tickets like train or bus tickets at the gate just wouldn't work except maybe on Loganair flights between the Hebrides.
 

nlogax

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But that doesn't have to apply to railways. If I go to my local ticket office and buy a ticket with cash, that doesn't get logged on any central database. (Probably the fact someone has bought a ticket from A to B goes onto some database of 'tickets sold' somewhere, but there's no identifying information and there's no subsequent tracking of the use of the ticket). I don't see any issue with that.

Handling cash payments is becoming more expensive for businesses than enabling newer forms of payment. That includes the railway. And that will continue to be the case as ever higher percentages of passengers opt for modern and convenient payment and ticketing formats. You may not have a transaction logged on a database but right now ticket offices still need to 'cash up' at the end of the day and cash transactions be recorded in some manner for reasons of financial reporting and business records. Cash users have to accept that theirs is a slow but steady losing game. Progress is progress and at some point a few decades from now it will cease to exist for public usage.

Meanwhile there are multiple anonymous or semi-anonymous online or card payment methods if you're really so utterly concerned about being tracked or your actions controlled. Personally I couldn't care less about that aspect of modern payments and I can't really say it keeps me awake at night.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not quite a fair comparion as the number of airline passengers who turn up at airports to buy a ticket is an infinitesimally small proportion of the total.

Long distance rail is headed that way, too. Even for people like me who prefer walk-up tickets, things like seat selectors are pushing the switch to buying before outward travel.
 

AM9

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Long distance rail is headed that way, too. Even for people like me who prefer walk-up tickets, things like seat selectors are pushing the switch to buying before outward travel.
So effectively the trend is designed to prevent people who need to make a long distance rail journey at short notice much worse if not impossible. So who gains here?
 

Bletchleyite

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So effectively the trend is designed to prevent people who need to make a long distance rail journey at short notice much worse if not impossible.

I bought an e-ticket on my phone to prove a point earlier (it was only £2.50). It was for a train about 10 minutes from the time of purchase. So, er, no.

Advance fares do that, but changes to ticketing don't.
 

MikeWM

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Handling cash payments is becoming more expensive for businesses than enabling newer forms of payment.

I don't disagree, but businesses need to continue to attract customers, not put them off. Sometimes that involves spending a bit of money, that perhaps they'd rather not have to, in order to attract/keep customers who have certain preferences. The ticket office debate comes down to a similar argument in my opinion.

Cash users have to accept that theirs is a slow but steady losing game. Progress is progress and at some point a few decades from now it will cease to exist for public usage.

I've mentioned a number of times on this thread and others that I'm well aware I'm not going to win this battle, but I think it sufficiently important that I'm not just going to roll over and make it easy either.

Meanwhile there are multiple anonymous or semi-anonymous online or card payment methods if you're really so utterly concerned about being tracked or your actions controlled.

I'm utterly concerned about *the removal of the ability to avoid it when I'd prefer to do so*. Most things I do are tracked somewhere or other, including posting on this forum which I'm not exactly doing anonymously. I'm not bothered about the government or anyone else knowing that I travel between Ely and Cambridge on a regular basis, for example.

But once you lose the ability to avoid it even in circumstances when you think it important - as I've already said, lockdown restrictions are a good template for that - then that does bother me, yes.

Personally I couldn't care less about that aspect of modern payments and I can't really say it keeps me awake at night.

Which is your choice, but as I said some posts above

At least not until you find your bank accounts frozen because you went to an anti-government protest (see the Canadian truckers earlier this year). Or you find you're not allowed to buy the food you want because you've exceeded your monthly carbon ration (already suggested by various people, eg. the head of a major bank in the Netherlands). Or you find you can't buy a train ticket because your social credit score isn't good enough. Or you find you can't buy petrol for your car because you've not had the latest government mandated vaccine/booster. Or...

and by then it will be too late to care.
 

AM9

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I bought an e-ticket on my phone to prove a point earlier (it was only £2.50). It was for a train about 10 minutes from the time of purchase. So, er, no.

Advance fares do that, but changes to ticketing don't.
That's at the moment. But as has been posted here, LNER look like they are making seat reservations mandatory, so once the seats are all gone, - no more passengers however important the journey is.
 

tomuk

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How many centuries in the future is Star Wars set? Even in Star Wars they seem to use physical currency.
In Star Trek they don't. In that utopian future, after the nuclear\biological wars of the 2xxs, society has evolved to no longer need it.
This was one of the creator Gene Rodenberry's rules, as the writers quickly found out removing the motivations and acts of accumulating wealth did stymy righting dramatic engaging stories.
 

route101

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I still use cash but only for a few things. Barbers is one, often cash only and small corner shops, never really trust them. I know someone who was charged £25 for a packet of crisps for using there card, shop scamming people it seems.
 

duncanp

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Cash users have to accept that theirs is a slow but steady losing game. Progress is progress and at some point a few decades from now it will cease to exist for public usage.

The people who rely on cash are often the poorest and most disadvantaged in society.

It is quite unacceptable to exclude these people from train travel just for the operational convenience of the TOC, so if the railway decides not to accept cash any longer (either at a ticket office, a station TVM or on board the train) some alternative will have to be found.

I do not accept that cash will cease to exist as a means of payment in wider society though.

As has been reported recently, many people are finding it a useful way of budgeting and controlling their spending, and there have been many instances of contactless payment systems going down due to a Wifi outage or failure of the relevant banking app.
 

cjmillsnun

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Considerably less though than an active website/app with all sorts of security, verification, etc.



Perhaps so, and I'm willing to agree it is quite likely it does save some money overall, but the cost certainly isn't zero.




But they already have to have the backend database etc. for all manner of other reasons, whatever format they issue the ticket with. It's not really comparable.
the backend database has been there for train tickets since they started selling tickets online. To produce an e-ticket will just be a script that extracts the information needed and puts it on the relevant form. Something that can then interface with the wallet function on a phone.

A similar script will be used by a TVM when a booking reference is entered for ToD.
 

tomuk

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the backend database has been there for train tickets since they started selling tickets online. To produce an e-ticket will just be a script that extracts the information needed and puts it on the relevant form. Something that can then interface with the wallet function on a phone.

A similar script will be used by a TVM when a booking reference is entered for ToD.
According to insiders on here the e-ticket system is completely separate to the old ToD system as one of the goals of e-tickets is to do away with the old legacy system. Apparently the ToD system is costly to support due to its old design.
 

Bletchleyite

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I still use cash but only for a few things. Barbers is one, often cash only and small corner shops, never really trust them. I know someone who was charged £25 for a packet of crisps for using there card, shop scamming people it seems.

More likely an error, i.e. they were 25p and the shop owner entered £25 by mistake. Always read the amount shown before tapping your card.

The people who rely on cash are often the poorest and most disadvantaged in society.

It is quite unacceptable to exclude these people from train travel just for the operational convenience of the TOC, so if the railway decides not to accept cash any longer (either at a ticket office, a station TVM or on board the train) some alternative will have to be found.

London has already worked that one out - Oyster. Or general prepaid debit cards. The railway could even do a deal with one of the banks to create one specifically for them, though there are plenty out there.
 

DelayRepay

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More likely an error, i.e. they were 25p and the shop owner entered £25 by mistake. Always read the amount shown before tapping your card.

Surprises me how many people don't. I was once behind a bloke who accidentally paid £850 for a full English breakfast (should have been £8.50). The weird thing is contactless obviously didn't work, but he happily put his card in the slot and entered his PIN. It was only when he looked at the receipt that he questioned it.

Unfortunately, the person serving him did not know how to cancel the transaction so had to go off to find the manager. That was one occasion when I did pay by cash, because it was the only way to get served while most of the staff were searching for the card machine instruction manual!

A friend of mine once got charged £400 instead of £4.00 in a pub. They did not know how to do a refund so they offered him £396 cash from the till :o
 

Cloud Strife

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Not quite a fair comparion as the number of airline passengers who turn up at airports to buy a ticket is an infinitesimally small proportion of the total. Add to that the checks and clearances for a person to get to airside, selling tickets like train or bus tickets at the gate just wouldn't work except maybe on Loganair flights between the Hebrides.

I actually had a funny situation a few years back when I was told "get to Cody, Wyoming, USA ASAP". I was told to just drive straight to the airport and get on my way, and let the boss know what my schedule was when I'd bought the tickets.

I turned up at Wrocław Airport, and headed to the Lufthansa ticket desk. I asked nonchalantly "one return to Cody, Wyoming, USA please, departing immediately and returning on Friday afternoon". I had to repeat myself three times before the ticket agent finally processed what I wanted, and she said straight away that she'd never sold anything more complicated than a return to Frankfurt/Munich. We had a nice laugh about it, she found what I wanted, and I was on my way. The fun part was that I didn't have anything on me except a laptop bag, which led to some questioning upon landing in the US.
 

tomuk

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shop scamming people it seems.
A few years back now we had a spate of card payment issues in the local area. It turned out that one of the local petrol stations had been co-opted by the Tamil Tigers and they were 'skimming cards'. I believe they had their own chip and pin machine which they would substitute for the real one.
 

DelayRepay

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A few years back now we had a spate of card payment issues in the local area. It turned out that one of the local petrol stations had been co-opted by the Tamil Tigers and they were 'skimming cards'. I believe they had their own chip and pin machine which they would substitute for the real one.
You can't skim a chip. But you can skim the old fashioned magnetic strip, if the card still has one.
 

duncanp

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More likely an error, i.e. they were 25p and the shop owner entered £25 by mistake. Always read the amount shown before tapping your card.



London has already worked that one out - Oyster. Or general prepaid debit cards. The railway could even do a deal with one of the banks to create one specifically for them, though there are plenty out there.

Yes, there are solutions out there for those that use cash.

But this relies on having facilities at a local convenience store or newsagent whereby someone can give the shopkeeper, say, £10 in cash and have £10 in credit loaded onto their Oyster card.

But for those who are on a tight budget, handing over £10 in cash could be a problem if you only want to pay £3.30 for two bus fares. (in London)
 

DelayRepay

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Yes, there are solutions out there for those that use cash.

But this relies on having facilities at a local convenience store or newsagent whereby someone can give the shopkeeper, say, £10 in cash and have £10 in credit loaded onto their Oyster card.

But for those who are on a tight budget, handing over £10 in cash could be a problem if you only want to pay £3.30 for two bus fares. (in London)
Is there a reason (other than 'rules') why you couldn't hand the shop keeper £3.30 and have that loaded to your card? Or even hand him the £10, ask him to load £3.30 and receive £6.70 in change?
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, there are solutions out there for those that use cash.

But this relies on having facilities at a local convenience store or newsagent whereby someone can give the shopkeeper, say, £10 in cash and have £10 in credit loaded onto their Oyster card.

But for those who are on a tight budget, handing over £10 in cash could be a problem if you only want to pay £3.30 for two bus fares. (in London)

No reason you couldn't just put £3.30 on it.
 
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