Son walked away from ticket inspector- repercussions

[ThrowawayTL]

Hello all,
My son and his friend were travelling to an event by train and encountered issues on the return journey. From what I’ve been told, they attempted to buy child tickets (for which they are both eligible) but we’re refused as the ticket office clerk did not believe they were 15 with them eventually ending up buying adult tickets with a 16-17 railcard as it was roughly the same price as a child ticket. On arrival at their final station my son (friend had got off earlier) was met by two ticket inspectors who asked to see his railcard. He tried to explain the situation but was told he would have to pay a penalty of £80 so ended up refusing and walking off.

I understand that he should not have walked off but would like to know what consequences he is likely to face and the best way to deal with this. This is not our local TOC if that makes any difference
Thanks

 

[Snow1964]

If there is no record of either your son or his friend. Then probably won’t be any follow up unless meet same inspector again on another trip.

If the friend gave details, rather depends on what they want to follow up, as need to involve parents to prosecute a child.

There is the possibility if other child gave details, that it is followed up, that they say they bought child tickets (and confirm age by showing copy of a passport etc). They then say no idea why tickets say 16-17 and that must be issuing error. At which point unless the TOC was completely stupid it would drop it as pursuing a 15 year old for not having a 16-17 railcard is crazy.

 

[Vespa]

Since when TOCs have followed logic in their parallel universe ?

Walking away without leaving details makes it unlikely he will be traced.

I have seen people pushing through underground barriers in front of ticket staff who have done nothing about it.

 

[spag23]

I assume they resorted to buying the discounted tickets from an adjacent machine, as the the ticket clerk would have known they didn't have a Railcard.
And you say these were "roughly" the same price as a child ticket. Did they actually pay more than they should have? In which case a refund (and complaint) is due!
In any event, it would be wise for them to carry proof of age for any future journeys. If that evidence was rejected by a clerk, then a complaint really would be in order.

 

[4COR]

I assume they resorted to buying the discounted tickets from an adjacent machine, as the the ticket clerk would have known they didn't have a Railcard.

If they did this, why didn't they just buy child tickets from the machine, or would they have struggled to get through barriers perhaps?

 

[Falcon1200]

The issue of whether ticket office staff believe someone is, or is not, entitled to child fares is not new - Back n 1984 we used to question anyone we suspected of 'trying it on'. Without some proof of age it is difficult to resolve, a person's appearance does not change on the day they turn 16 !

 

[Haywain]

The issue of whether ticket office staff believe someone is, or is not, entitled to child fares is not new - Back n 1984 we used to question anyone we suspected of 'trying it on'. Without some proof of age it is difficult to resolve, a person's appearance does not change on the day they turn 16 !

But no offence is committed by buying a ticket that they are not entitled to, the offence is using the ticket.

 

[Deafdoggie]

And thus we come full circle back into the ticket office three!

I assume they resorted to buying the discounted tickets from an adjacent machine, as the the ticket clerk would have known they didn't have a Railcard.
And you say these were "roughly" the same price as a child ticket. Did they actually pay more than they should have? In which case a refund (and complaint) is due!
In any event, it would be wise for them to carry proof of age for any future journeys. If that evidence was rejected by a clerk, then a complaint really would be in order.

If purchasing at a machine, surely they'd have bought a child ticket there?

But, if no details were taken then nothing will happen.

 

[AlterEgo]

If his details weren’t taken then nothing will happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue of whether ticket office staff believe someone is, or is not, entitled to child fares is not new - Back n 1984 we used to question anyone we suspected of 'trying it on'. Without some proof of age it is difficult to resolve, a person's appearance does not change on the day they turn 16 !

I (having been well over six foot since about age 14) used to carry my birth certificate, though I am not totally sure what they thought a non photo ID actually proved.

 

[Falcon1200]

But no offence is committed by buying a ticket that they are not entitled to, the offence is using the ticket.

They surely intend to use the ticket having bought it ?

 

[Haywain]

They surely intend to use the ticket having bought it ?

Maybe, but the offence is in the use of the ticket. We don't see people on this forum because they bought a ticket, we see them here because they used (or misused) a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

They surely intend to use the ticket having bought it ?

That however is not an offence.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

They surely intend to use the ticket having bought it ?

Could be for someone else, of course.

 

[ThrowawayTL]

Hi,
Thanks for the responses. It was only my son who was caught as the friend had to get off at an earlier station anyway. The only details he gave was his DoB and first name.

I’ve checked the ticket prices and they are both the same price (13.55) so no refund is due. I believe they purchased them from a ticket machine in the end but I think they did not know how to get a child ticket with it (hence going to the ticket office in the first place).

As for ID, he does have a picture of his passport on his phone (not sure about friend though) but this was told he must have a physical ID on him which obviously isn’t possible at his age

 

[AlterEgo]

To confirm with the OP, he’s definitely a child and entitled to a child ticket?

 

[ThrowawayTL]

To confirm with the OP, he’s definitely a child and entitled to a child ticket?

Yes, both aged 15 and therefore entitled to a child ticket

 

[NoOnesFool]

Throwaway, I sympathise with the situation and can appreciate your son's frustration at not being offered the child discounted ticket. In this circumstance, with the Officer not having your son's full name or address, there is unlikely to be any further action taken. However, if the Officer encounters your son again, he may recognise him and it is also worth noting that some RPOs wear body worn CCTV, and footage may be shared amongst rail staff in case they recognise your son.

My advice would be for your son to use the bus/taxis for a while, whilst the encounter is still fresh in the Officer's mind. Other than that, I wouldn't worry about it.

In future, the best idea in this situation would be to buy an adult ticket and contact the company later to complain and obtain a refund in the difference. It can be difficult for children to understand how to play the system, but the NRCOC and railway ticketing rules were designed with the adult in mind.

Hopefully you can take some re-assurance from this post.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, both aged 15 and therefore entitled to a child ticket

Okay. Well they don’t have his address or full name so it’s unlikely anything will come of this anyway.

 

[ThrowawayTL]

Throwaway, I sympathise with the situation and can appreciate your son's frustration at not being offered the child discounted ticket. In this circumstance, with the Officer not having your son's full name or address, there is unlikely to be any further action taken. However, if the Officer encounters your son again, he may recognise him and it is also worth noting that some RPOs wear body worn CCTV, and footage may be shared amongst rail staff in case they recognise your son.

My advice would be for your son to use the bus/taxis for a while, whilst the encounter is still fresh in the Officer's mind. Other than that, I wouldn't worry about it.

In future, the best idea in this situation would be to buy an adult ticket and contact the company later to complain and obtain a refund in the difference. It can be difficult for children to understand how to play the system, but the NRCOC and railway ticketing rules were designed with the adult in mind.

Hopefully you can take some re-assurance from this post.

Thank you, very reassuring - we do not use trains much so this won't be a problem. Hopefully this wont happen again in the future

 

[zwk500]

As for ID, he does have a picture of his passport on his phone (not sure about friend though) but this was told he must have a physical ID on him which obviously isn’t possible at his age

Does your son have a student card for school or any other membership/ID card that might show his DOB and a photo? I guess probably most don't have the DOB.

If lack of ID is a regular problem for him proving he is indeed under 16 there is the CitizenCard: https://www.citizencard.com/ which can be downloaded onto an app as well as being issued as a regular ID card. If he's turning 16 soon probably not too much point, as you can just apply for a provisional license.

 

[Haywain]

it is also worth noting that some RPOs wear body worn CCTV, and footage may be shared amongst rail staff

I don’t believe there is any truth in that.

 

[185143]

I don’t believe there is any truth in that.

Well there is. Some RPOs DO wear bodycams. Though it is very unlikely to be shared amongst other staff, I agree.

 

[Dai Corner]

Well there is. Some RPOs DO wear bodycams. Though it is very unlikely to be shared amongst other staff, I agree.

Don't they ever get together to identify serial evaders, tell colleagues about evaders they suspect but haven't managed to catch and the like?

 

[zwk500]

Don't they ever get together to identify serial evaders, tell colleagues about evaders they suspect but haven't managed to catch and the like?

I would guess intelligence is shared about people identified as being 'regulars' or active frauds, but if a report was filed on every person thats ever been caught nobody would be able to read them in time. A 16 year old on the wrong ticket but same fare really isn't worth alerting people to watch out for.

 

[Hadders]

Staff wouldn’t normally have access to body cam footage.

 

[Dai Corner]

I would guess intelligence is shared about people identified as being 'regulars' or active frauds, but if a report was filed on every person thats ever been caught nobody would be able to read them in time. A 16 year old on the wrong ticket but same fare really isn't worth alerting people to watch out for.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting they'd alert colleagues about the young man in this thread. I was enquiring more generally.

Staff wouldn’t normally have access to body cam footage.

Management would though, presumably. I was thinking that circulating (still) pictures would be easier and more accurate than writing descriptions.

Apologies. I've gone too far off topic for this thread I think.

 

[zwk500]

Management would though, presumably. I was thinking that circulating (still) pictures would be easier and more accurate than writing descriptions.

My understanding is that bodycam footage is only saved if the RPO activates it, and it then has to be downloaded from the camera. CCTV is probably more helpful for this kind of intelligence than bodycam, tbh.

 

[Hadders]

Management would though, presumably. I was thinking that circulating (still) pictures would be easier and more accurate than writing descriptions.

That’s a no-no under GDPR, in most circumstances. Certainly is at my (non-railway) work place.

 

[zwk500]

That’s a no-no under GDPR, in most circumstances. Certainly is at my (non-railway) work place.

Would circulating an image of a known fare-dodger not be a permissible business use?