EMR Class 170 updates

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m surprised it hasn’t been mentioned yet but, 170418 was the first of the EMR 170s to venture to Liverpool since Central Trains days. It ended up working the 1R70 1345 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street, returning as the 1L16 1652 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham.

That’s interesting as I didn’t know EMR had operated any 170s to Liverpool. I knew they’d done Norwich services but were usually swapped at Nottingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2022 ==

Edit: I’ve just seen it happened today. Those 170/4s are in a horrendous state though, so I’m not sure it’s a good thing.

 

[LowLevel]

Just short of units. Someone authorised it to go, so go it did. Lots of units stopped with AC and engine faults this weekend so it is pretty desperate

 

[liamf656]

I’m surprised it hasn’t been mentioned yet but, 170418 was the first of the EMR 170s to venture to Liverpool since Central Trains days today. It ended up working the 1R70 1345 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street, returning as the 1L16 1652 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham.

There was also another round trip that 170638 was noted down to do but they managed to find a pair of 158s instead, that would have been interesting to see!

 

[TheBigD]

That’s interesting as I didn’t know EMR had operated any 170s to Liverpool. I knew they’d done Norwich services but were usually swapped at Nottingham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2022 ==

Edit: I’ve just seen it happened today. Those 170/4s are in a horrendous state though, so I’m not sure it’s a good thing.

The 1035 ex Nottingham to Norwich and 1355 return was 170515 today.
Don't know if it did the Liverpool-Nottingham section on either run though.

 

[liamf656]

The 1035 ex Nottingham to Norwich and 1355 return was 170515 today.
Don't know if it did the Liverpool-Nottingham section on either run though.

It was replaced with a 156/158 at Nottingham

 

[43102EMR]

I’m surprised it hasn’t been mentioned yet but, 170418 was the first of the EMR 170s to venture to Liverpool since Central Trains days today. It ended up working the 1R70 1345 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street, returning as the 1L16 1652 Liverpool Lime Street to Nottingham.

Well it’s about time! Crew runs or in passenger service?
Edit: just seen above posts - hopefully this will become the norm soon!

 

[LowLevel]

Well it’s about time! Crew runs or in passenger service?
Edit: just seen above posts - hopefully this will become the norm soon!

Shortage of serviceable units.

416 and 638 are both down in pencil to visit today too.

 

[IceBlue]

Well it’s about time! Crew runs or in passenger service?
Edit: just seen above posts - hopefully this will become the norm soon!

I sure don’t for the time being- 170s are a reduction on seats compared to a 158 and the loss of walk through will be missed considering how well loaded the units get.

If they started running 5 or 6 car formations using SDO, I’d warm to them a bit more, but for the meantime leave the service as 158s IMO.

Maybe once TPE can get a reliable service going once again between Manc and Sheffield then consider switching, but for now seating has to be the priority on that route.

 

[TheBigD]

Shortage of serviceable units.

416 and 638 are both down in pencil to visit today too.

Currently 170416 is allocated to the 1142 Notts-Liverpool, and 170638 to the 1436 Peterborough-Liverpool...

 

[LowLevel]

Currently 170416 is allocated to the 1142 Notts-Liverpool, and 170638 to the 1436 Peterborough-Liverpool...

Be nice if we can get 638 to all points on the network before we hand it back, I think we just about managed it with 156503 a couple of years ago

 

[TheBigD]

Be nice if we can get 638 to all points on the network before we hand it back, I think we just about managed it with 156503 a couple of years ago

You might struggle getting Barton on Humber in, but I reckon a good chance of everywhere else on the EMR network.
I'm guessing it's already made it to Leicester, Grimsby, Crewe, Skegness, Worksop, and today Liverpool.

So just Norwich left or has it yet to reach the abo e outposts?

 

[LowLevel]

You might struggle getting Barton on Humber in, but I reckon a good chance of everywhere else on the EMR network.
I'm guessing it's already made it to Leicester, Grimsby, Crewe, Skegness, Worksop, and today Liverpool.

So just Norwich left or has it yet to reach the abo e outposts?

I think it's actually been fairly restricted on where it's been.

Lincoln, Skegness, Worksop, Derby are definites. I think it's been to Matlock.

Not noted it on Crewe, Joint line (either end), Liverpool, Grimsby, Leicester or Norwich.

The 3 car diagrams are pretty limited in where they go, though they sometimes do wander on vice moves and they're a bit more varied on a Sunday, I think a 3 car might visit Cleethorpes.

It spends most of it's time alternating between Worksop and Skegness, with one of the Worksop 3 car diagrams then doing the last one at night to Lincoln and the first one back in the morning, then on to the 0745 Skegness.

 

[43055]

I think it's actually been fairly restricted on where it's been.

Lincoln, Skegness, Worksop, Derby are definites. I think it's been to Matlock.

Not noted it on Crewe, Joint line (either end), Liverpool, Grimsby, Leicester or Norwich.

The 3 car diagrams are pretty limited in where they go, though they sometimes do wander on vice moves and they're a bit more varied on a Sunday, I think a 3 car might visit Cleethorpes.

It spends most of it's time alternating between Worksop and Skegness, with one of the Worksop 3 car diagrams then doing the last one at night to Lincoln and the first one back in the morning, then on to the 0745 Skegness.

638 was showing on RTT on a Crewe diagram about two weeks ago.

 

[bnsf734]

According to Realtime Trains today at 1245 170638 is allocated to 5R90 1325 Nottingham to Peterborough ECS then 1R62 1436 Peterborough to Liverpool LS. Lets see if it makes it!

 

[LowLevel]

According to Realtime Trains today at 1245 170638 is allocated to 5R90 1325 Nottingham to Peterborough ECS then 1R62 1436 Peterborough to Liverpool LS. Lets see if it makes it!

Just departed Nottingham ECS to Peterborough and is running through to Liverpool.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Not sure if they can do the existing diagrams without them though.

Of course they can. The only increase in passenger numbers is in the East Midlands dontcha know !!
HMT says there is no one travelling in London and the South East !!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Of course they can. The only increase in passenger numbers is in the East Midlands dontcha know !!
HMT says there is no one travelling in London and the South East !!

Sorry I forgot the passengers I see standing on the Class 171s Tuesday - Thursday are a figment of my imagination

 

[Wyrleybart]

Sorry I forgot the passengers I see standing on the Class 171s Tuesday - Thursday are a figment of my imagination

They most definitely are, as they are in many other places. The "Emporers new clothes" I am afraid.

 

[LowLevel]

They most definitely are, as they are in many other places. The "Emporers new clothes" I am afraid.

The procession of trains leaving people behind in the East Midlands is pretty extreme though by current standards. Skegness and Liverpool are not pretty, and nor are anywhere else on a Saturday.

The stats do somewhat speak for themselves with the strongest figures after LNER.

 

[STINT47]

Another way of looking at ot is that Southern has people standing on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursdays. EMR has people standing every day of the week so who's need us greater? Plus EMR will use the trains more efficiently with higher utilisation than Southern who only need them for a few hours twice a day for three days a week.

Of course the solution would have been to electrify the Uckfield line years ago do the 171s could've released without making other passengers suffer but when did sense come into the railways?

 

[Starmill]

The reality is that demand is quite thin between Hastings and Ashford International and between Oxted and Uckfield. The diesel fleet is more than capable of covering this multiple times over. Obviously there are also electric services to Ore and Hurst Green anyway.

The reasons why Southern are stretched are:
- there has been a political prerogative to operate through services to Eastbourne and London respectively
- the EMU fleet is being deliberately stretched thinly as a cost saving measure

However one looks at it, therefore, there are difficult decisions to be made. The current plan seems to be the least worst option.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Another way of looking at ot is that Southern has people standing on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursdays. EMR has people standing every day of the week so who's need us greater? Plus EMR will use the trains more efficiently with higher utilisation than Southern who only need them for a few hours twice a day for three days a week.

Of course the solution would have been to electrify the Uckfield line years ago do the 171s could've released without making other passengers suffer but when did sense come into the railways?

Absolutely agree with you but sadly HAS trumps logic every bloody time. All the fannying around with 769s at Reading would be unnecessary if they only infilled the gaps in the juice rail network and it would probably have been cheaper

 

[Starmill]

Just departed Nottingham ECS to Peterborough and is running through to Liverpool.

Here she is at Stockport, still working to Liverpool Lime Street as far as one can tell.

 

[TheBigD]

Here she is at Stockport, still working to Liverpool Lime Street as far as one can tell.

Out of curiosity, what was the loadings like? Wedged as its 3 vice 4 car or not too bad?

 

[Starmill]

Out of curiosity, what was the loadings like? Wedged as its 3 vice 4 car or not too bad?

Some available seats leaving Manchester Piccadilly but lots of people standing coming in from Sheffield. The service an hour earlier was running around 60 minutes late however!

 

[Chrisgr31]

The reality is that demand is quite thin between Hastings and Ashford International and between Oxted and Uckfield. The diesel fleet is more than capable of covering this multiple times over. Obviously there are also electric services to Ore and Hurst Green anyway.

The reasons why Southern are stretched are:
- there has been a political prerogative to operate through services to Eastbourne and London respectively
- the EMU fleet is being deliberately stretched thinly as a cost saving measure

However one looks at it, therefore, there are difficult decisions to be made. The current plan seems to be the least worst option.

The reality being changing trains at Oxted on the Uckfield line adds 20 minutes to the journey time as not only do you need to add the change time, but also it’s then all stops between Oxted and East Croydon. The Sunday service requires that change and takes 20 minutes longer. A journey time of 1hr 35 to do about 50 miles is quite an achievement!

the result being on a daily commute no one will want to do that change and will therefore go for other options, there will therefore be no demand. The was there pre-pandemic as after all they didn’t extend the platforms for no reason!

However demand was affected by the Southern strikes, and the the unreliability of the Scottish units and then the quite appalling service post pandemic. A 2 hourly off-peak service hardly encourages demand especially when tether are more frequent, faster trains from Tunbridge Wells which with an advance ticket are cheaper as well!

The peak service which is full on Mondays and standing Tuesday to Thursday demonstrates that the correct service at the right price is actually attractive to passengers.

But of course no one really cares as they are safe Tory seats. The only bit of good news is that the loss of the Scottish units might actually increase reliability of the 171 fleet

 

[Starmill]

The reality being changing trains at Oxted on the Uckfield line adds 20 minutes to the journey time as not only do you need to add the change time, but also it’s then all stops between Oxted and East Croydon. The Sunday service requires that change and takes 20 minutes longer. A journey time of 1hr 35 to do about 50 miles is quite an achievement!

the result being on a daily commute no one will want to do that change and will therefore go for other options, there will therefore be no demand. The was there pre-pandemic as after all they didn’t extend the platforms for no reason!

However demand was affected by the Southern strikes, and the the unreliability of the Scottish units and then the quite appalling service post pandemic. A 2 hourly off-peak service hardly encourages demand especially when tether are more frequent, faster trains from Tunbridge Wells which with an advance ticket are cheaper as well!

The peak service which is full on Mondays and standing Tuesday to Thursday demonstrates that the correct service at the right price is actually attractive to passengers.

But of course no one really cares as they are safe Tory seats. The only bit of good news is that the loss of the Scottish units might actually increase reliability of the 171 fleet

Trains between Edenbridge Town and Uckfield are certainly not at capacity. The only reason such capacity was provided before the pandemic was because of the numbers from Hurst Green and north thereof.

Obviously none of that actually makes any difference if there's not a suitable replacement electric service, such as an express service to East Grinstead.

 

[DDB]

Does the arrival of these extra 170s mean we will get the Matlock to Nottingham services back and so actually have trains calling at Spondon again?

 

[Andy Pacer]

Does the arrival of these extra 170s mean we will get the Matlock to Nottingham services back and so actually have trains calling at Spondon again?

I don't think there have been any more 170's arrive except the one on loan from XC for the summer?

 

[TheBigD]

Does the arrival of these extra 170s mean we will get the Matlock to Nottingham services back and so actually have trains calling at Spondon again?

I expect EMR will need traincrew establishments to return to pre covid levels before the service is reintroduced.