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Coal Supply/Cost Issues

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Dougal2345

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I'm surprised a pushy Rolls-Royce rep. hasn't popped up in this discussion yet, suggesting they'd be happy to complement their 'Small Modular Reactor' concept with a 'Tiny' version that will fit inside a locomotive firebox.

As long as the taxpayer bungs them a few hundred million for development costs, followed by a couple of billion to build the things, that is.
 
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TPO

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It was a rather dirty fuel I recall. I don't know the complete formulation, how much they filtered or otherwise processed it, but it definitely included used sump oil from motor vehicles, with all its impurities. The railway asked for donations of used oil from visitors and supporters, so I doubt cost was the big issue. In the 1970s we used to stay in a cottage next to the Ffestiniog regularly, and I remember the black acrid smoke emitted clearly. Not continuous admittedly, but especially notable for a short time after the burners were turned on hard. I much prefer the clean light heating oil used by the single manned modern steam rack engines of the Brienz Rothorn line in Switzerland. Very similar to diesel apparently, so an e-fuel substitute should be plausible.

I recall back many years when they moved to light fuel in Switzerland they reckoned they could make oil-burning steam locos have emissions comparible with their then best diesel locos. Modern white (i.e. duty-paid) diesel at the pumps is already a set %age of biofuel..... perhaps biodiesel is an option to explore.

Germany are the fourth largest user of coal in the world and have around 130 years of usable strategic reserves, but somehow the "greenies" seem to have left them alone. Our own usable reserves are now negligible as virtually no mines have been adequately mothballed. Reliance on others for our energy needs is a folly, especially when we are sitting on vast amounts of the stuff, and especially at time like this. Technology is available to burn coal "cleanly" (ok, not on a steam loco!). Time for a change of tack.

Aye but as Germany is "known to be environmentally sound" they get a free pass with UK greenies...... as for clean-burn coal technology, I imagine most of the work has been consigned to deep archive or the bin. 30 years ago there was a lot of scientific papers and books in Cardiff City library for example, but somehow I doubt that material is available any more.

Other than Russia been out of the question now of supplying coal to the heritage steam railways, The 3 main countries who we can still buy coal off as imported are Khazakstan Columbia and Poland (I'm not sure if N, America or Australia could be included there also as coal importers for the U.K. heritage lines and 2 remaining steel Mills at scunthorpe and Port Talbot) I do believe reading on national preservation about the Severn valley railway who imported coal off Russia are now having to buy imported coal now off Khazakstan.
Dave S 56F

I remember about 20 years ago everyone was raving about "Eagle steam coal" from Poland- it wasn't too bad generally- I wonder what happened to that supply?

There was a story (which I can't now find again!) on Facebook a couple of days ago about a railway having just had a delivery of coal which will keep them going for most of the Summer. It wasn't one of the larger ones, either in gauge or length, but it looks like it does seem that there is coal available somewhere.

I've been reliably informed that some of the supply issue is down to bigger, richer Heritage railways buying up all that is available to secure their own supplies for the season, none left for others then.... that is anecdotal of course.

There are, or were until very recently, small scale underground mines in the Forest of Dean, Wales and around Alston/Weardale.

Long gone in Alston area (>10 years ago) and the small mines in Wales kind-of stopped after the Gleision tragedy in 2011.

Proud history of use as the fuel for stoves in kitchen cars before the dash to propane gas.

When I was a bairn, I lived in an old stone farmhouse in a remote area and we had a Trianco boiler which burned anthracite pellets- the Trianco was the best available technology for water/home heating. Went through 3 hoppers in 12 years (the sulphur in the coal causes corrosion). By the time the hopper needed replacing a 4th time we'd had enough, and moving to an oil-burning boiler was greeted with relief as we could go away somewhere overnight and not worry that the boiler would go out- the solid fuel boiler needed a couple of buckets of pellets tipping in every day, or at least 1 bucket when on low in summer. Heavy, dusty and dirty- even with the boiler in the outhouse. Had to take the ash out at least every other day and every day in winter.

By contrast, the oil-fired boiler was waaaay superior in all ways. No lugging heavy buckets of coal, no ashing out, just press a button to light it, cheaper, cleaner to store. (Oil is often better than propane gas for heating, but some households get propane as they use it for cooking too so that way it's only 1 tank, we did the maths on heating costs and went to oil rather than gas).

The Lackawanna RR used anthracite in its locos up to dieselization AFAIR and was known as the route of anthracite. Needless to say most of it came from mines owned by the railroad and was essentially a waste product. But it had the advantage that it burned very hot and cleanly with essentially no smoke, cinders, or ash. Yes, wide, shallow fireboxes were required. Anthracite is still mined to some extent in the US for specialty purposes and the reserves in the state of Pennsylvania are enormous. Last I checked it was priced around three times that of bituminous coal. wf.

Anthracite needs special hoppers/firebars as it burns hotter, and has a habit of being high sulphur content, so the combustion products include sulphurous acid. Which is why the Trianco boilers (built for firing anthracite) needed replacement hoppers (and grate bars) periodically. Lighting an anthracite fire is also something of a challenge, you need forced air to make it go. (Trianco boilers had an electric fan to draw air through).

I think moving to a light oil or biofuel for steam locos is probably inevitable.....

TPO
 

EbbwJunction1

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I've been reliably informed that some of the supply issue is down to bigger, richer Heritage railways buying up all that is available to secure their own supplies for the season, none left for others then.... that is anecdotal of course.
I haven't heard that, but I was just reporting on a report that I'd read.

I understand that the Gloucester Warwickshire Railway have recently taken a delivery of coal for their Easter season. It's apparently different to what they had before (don't ask, it's too technical for me!) so they've had to adapt their working practices to be able to use it.
 

MarkyT

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I recall back many years when they moved to light fuel in Switzerland they reckoned they could make oil-burning steam locos have emissions comparible with their then best diesel locos. Modern white (i.e. duty-paid) diesel at the pumps is already a set %age of biofuel..... perhaps biodiesel is an option to explore.



Aye but as Germany is "known to be environmentally sound" they get a free pass with UK greenies...... as for clean-burn coal technology, I imagine most of the work has been consigned to deep archive or the bin. 30 years ago there was a lot of scientific papers and books in Cardiff City library for example, but somehow I doubt that material is available any more.



I remember about 20 years ago everyone was raving about "Eagle steam coal" from Poland- it wasn't too bad generally- I wonder what happened to that supply?



I've been reliably informed that some of the supply issue is down to bigger, richer Heritage railways buying up all that is available to secure their own supplies for the season, none left for others then.... that is anecdotal of course.



Long gone in Alston area (>10 years ago) and the small mines in Wales kind-of stopped after the Gleision tragedy in 2011.



When I was a bairn, I lived in an old stone farmhouse in a remote area and we had a Trianco boiler which burned anthracite pellets- the Trianco was the best available technology for water/home heating. Went through 3 hoppers in 12 years (the sulphur in the coal causes corrosion). By the time the hopper needed replacing a 4th time we'd had enough, and moving to an oil-burning boiler was greeted with relief as we could go away somewhere overnight and not worry that the boiler would go out- the solid fuel boiler needed a couple of buckets of pellets tipping in every day, or at least 1 bucket when on low in summer. Heavy, dusty and dirty- even with the boiler in the outhouse. Had to take the ash out at least every other day and every day in winter.

By contrast, the oil-fired boiler was waaaay superior in all ways. No lugging heavy buckets of coal, no ashing out, just press a button to light it, cheaper, cleaner to store. (Oil is often better than propane gas for heating, but some households get propane as they use it for cooking too so that way it's only 1 tank, we did the maths on heating costs and went to oil rather than gas).



Anthracite needs special hoppers/firebars as it burns hotter, and has a habit of being high sulphur content, so the combustion products include sulphurous acid. Which is why the Trianco boilers (built for firing anthracite) needed replacement hoppers (and grate bars) periodically. Lighting an anthracite fire is also something of a challenge, you need forced air to make it go. (Trianco boilers had an electric fan to draw air through).

I think moving to a light oil or biofuel for steam locos is probably inevitable.....

TPO
Fascinating post thanks. I'm convinced Swiss DLM style light oil firing for heritage steam locos is the future. The company also produces plug-in electric pre-heating units. One version preheats while the other can actually get a loco up to full working pressure from cold. Both can be activated remotely or on a timer in the early hours if a loco has been left connected properly the night before, so no more early starts for crew for firelighting. No ash production means cleaning is significantly reduced too and the locos can run with just a driver in the cab with very simple control for the burners. The boiler insulation is much better than that used traditionally on classic locomotives. Particulate and NOx emissions are much lower than if the same fuel was burned in a diesel engine, with no complex filtering or other exhaust processing required. Clearly the carbon is still there, but that could be offset if the fuel was manufactured from waste or renewable sources.
 

Baxenden Bank

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I'm surprised a pushy Rolls-Royce rep. hasn't popped up in this discussion yet, suggesting they'd be happy to complement their 'Small Modular Reactor' concept with a 'Tiny' version that will fit inside a locomotive firebox.

As long as the taxpayer bungs them a few hundred million for development costs, followed by a couple of billion to build the things, that is.
Why bother with the trouble, expense and safety cases for super-mini nukes when you could put up some catenary and put an element in the kettle to boil the water. [coat already on]

Alternatively charge the loco at each end on a 'fireless' basis.
 

MarkyT

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Why bother with the trouble, expense and safety cases for super-mini nukes when you could put up some catenary and put an element in the kettle to boil the water. [coat already on]

Alternatively charge the loco at each end on a 'fireless' basis.
Well it's not entirely without precedent...[my outdoor apparel also donned in advance]
I think the 'fireless' aspect here was important due to the particular locos' shunting duties on sidings that weren't or could not be wired. The boiler acted as a 'battery' for such off-grid excursions. In fact, one could consider a battery fitted to an electric or hybrid train to be a form of electrical 'boiler'. It doesn't have to be very big to become a useful load balancing mechanism for peak management and with regen braking can also harvest and store energy from deceleration without complex substation arrangements for sharing it between different trains.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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OK. I've heard some of this kind of waffle before, and I assure you, XR will not see the Wensleydale the same way as they see Exxon Mobile say. Especially if you note that that similar competitors that have made some effort to reduce their climate footprint, such as Shell, have have not been the centre of such protested of late - and their operations are obviously far more damaging than running a handful of trains on a handful of days of the year.

Compare the -already somewhat sour- optics of blockading a fuel depot being run by a multinational highly profitable oil company, to a private volunteer run heritage outfit. They are people and even their most hardcore members are probably more similar to you than you'd imagine.

No one is going to specifically target a sector that produces a fortieth of a percent of UK emissions.
I'm glad you have faith in XR to choose their targets responsibly... their previous actions (blocking an electric metro system for example) suggest that they'll do whatever gets them publicity even if it harms their overall message.
 

Speed43125

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I'm glad you have faith in XR to choose their targets responsibly... their previous actions (blocking an electric metro system for example) suggest that they'll do whatever gets them publicity even if it harms their overall message.
If it's pure publicity they want, I would suggest heritage lines which are generally far removed from population centres are likely to remain clear of the firing line.
 

61653 HTAFC

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If it's pure publicity they want, I would suggest heritage lines which are generally far removed from population centres are likely to remain clear of the firing line.
They don't seem to be a group that thinks all that much about picking their targets. Nor do they seem to be willing to listen to criticism about which targets they've ended up choosing. Like so many campaign groups they are convinced that they are correct, and if you question it you're a counter-revolutionary.
 

theageofthetra

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Anthracite - great for space heating , malting and so on - not good for UK steam locomotives (though used in the 19thC in the USA - special wide fireboxes required) - as mentioned before.
Lead to the camel back design, eventually outlawed due to safety concerns. I presume anthracite burning went with the end of the camel backs.

I'm glad you have faith in XR to choose their targets responsibly... their previous actions (blocking an electric metro system for example) suggest that they'll do whatever gets them publicity even if it harms their overall message.
Those fools have just blocked the two main access roads to one of Londons biggest hospitals, St Thomas's today. Nothing would surprise me
 
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Donny_m

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I’ve noticed the steam railway coal shortage stories start popping up on the news now. Had me thinking.

There are abandoned HTA hoppers in Alexandra Dock Junction that are still loaded, they’ve been there for at least 3 years. I’ve mentioned it to a DB worker there and he said nobody was aware they were loaded, however I’ve flown a Drone over and can see.

Maybe this could be offered up to someone locally, I mean what’s the value of fully loaded HTA’s of coal it must be quite a bit, just sitting there forgotten about.
 

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ChiefPlanner

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I’ve noticed the steam railway coal shortage stories start popping up on the news now. Had me thinking.

There are abandoned HTA hoppers in Alexandra Dock Junction that are still loaded, they’ve been there for at least 3 years. I’ve mentioned it to a DB worker there and he said nobody was aware they were loaded, however I’ve flown a Drone over and can see.

Maybe this could be offered up to someone locally, I mean what’s the value of fully loaded HTA’s of coal it must be quite a bit, just sitting there forgotten about.

Somebody will own it - presume the wagons had some sort of defect to prevent delivery.

Looks like "power station" slack - so of no real use to any preserved railway , unless converted to briquette form. It would have deteriorated in any case.


Just a thought - Poland still provides coal for German steam operation , so that could be a source of fuel - though it would have to be shipped over in either "reasonable" quantities by rail and sea - or perhaps in open top / sheeted containers - yes a bit smoky , but having driven and fired in the past on both the Woltzyn and narrow gauge operations (paid for) - it would seem an option if the finances were right. That would be a challenge.
 

Mcr Warrior

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If coal from the proposed new coal mine near Whitehaven ever "sees the light of day", will any of it be of a suitable quality to be used on heritage railways?
 

pitdiver

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Mention of how much it cost to run a mine. I live in an ex mining village in Nottinghamshire Before our mine closed in 1989 the mine was losing £200,000 per week
 

YorkshireBear

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If coal from the proposed new coal mine near Whitehaven ever "sees the light of day", will any of it be of a suitable quality to be used on heritage railways?
I don't believe so, I believe it is coking coal, main use being the steel industry.
 

Titfield

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Just a thought - Poland still provides coal for German steam operation , so that could be a source of fuel - though it would have to be shipped over in either "reasonable" quantities by rail and sea - or perhaps in open top / sheeted containers - yes a bit smoky , but having driven and fired in the past on both the Woltzyn and narrow gauge operations (paid for) - it would seem an option if the finances were right. That would be a challenge.

The Heritage Rail Association is talking with its members and other similar coal users (for example Traction Engines / Road Rollers) about buying a bulk supply and importing it into the UK. The issues that have to be resolved include 1) the amount needed per annum is relatively small 2) the funding by its members of such a supply - pay up front 3) any additional costs caused by having to store (possibly at a dockside) until required.
 

Baxenden Bank

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The Heritage Rail Association is talking with its members and other similar coal users (for example Traction Engines / Road Rollers) about buying a bulk supply and importing it into the UK. The issues that have to be resolved include 1) the amount needed per annum is relatively small 2) the funding by its members of such a supply - pay up front 3) any additional costs caused by having to store (possibly at a dockside) until required.
This would seem to be an obvious solution. Like rural residents grouping together to get better heating oil prices.

Given the apparantly specialist nature of locomotive coal, where did railways (or traction engine types) get their supplies from until recently? Is it something that each coal merchant has in stock but in smallish quantities or one company distributing nationwide as required? As it happens, there is a bloke up the road who is a coal merchant, but he doesn't keep his supplies at home.
 

MarkyT

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This would seem to be an obvious solution. Like rural residents grouping together to get better heating oil prices.

Given the apparantly specialist nature of locomotive coal, where did railways (or traction engine types) get their supplies from until recently? Is it something that each coal merchant has in stock but in smallish quantities or one company distributing nationwide as required? As it happens, there is a bloke up the road who is a coal merchant, but he doesn't keep his supplies at home.
Historically, the big four and constituent companies used to buy from different private collieries for different purposes. For example The LNER ordered what they termed 'grade A' for top link express work from certain selected Yorkshire pits, while a lesser quality product from a wider supply base sufficed for freight and other services. On nationalisation, at first it proved impossible to specify the good stuff anymore through the NCB ordering system, and my Dad recalls this affected performance significantly. I think the government of the day preferred to sell the best steam coal internationally for foreign exchange (no doubt helping to afford oil imports!), so the NCB may have been acting under instruction to not let British Railways have any. Later, this problem was resolved and BR was once again able to obtain the best quality UK coal where needed.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Historically, the big four and constituent companies used to buy from different private collieries for different purposes. For example The LNER ordered what they termed 'grade A' for top link express work from certain selected Yorkshire pits, while a lesser quality product from a wider supply base sufficed for freight and other services. On nationalisation, at first it proved impossible to specify the good stuff anymore through the NCB ordering system, and my Dad recalls this affected performance significantly. I think the government of the day preferred to sell the best steam coal internationally for foreign exchange (no doubt helping to afford oil imports!), so the NCB may have been acting under instruction to not let British Railways have any. Later, this problem was resolved and BR was once again able to obtain the best quality UK coal where needed.
Interesting stuff.

I was thinking a bit more recent though and how the preserved/heritage lines managed their supply.

I guess the static steam locations may also need to secure a supply (beam engines at mines etc) but perhaps they can be less fussy?
 

mitchf

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Long gone in Alston area (>10 years ago) and the small mines in Wales kind-of stopped after the Gleision tragedy in 2011.

Ayle Colliery, near Alston is still active. Had 2 bags of Alston Anthracite delivered from there last week.

 

Gostav

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I think a fireman training simulator like that can be help on coal consumption. For large heritage railways like GCR and ELR, what is the training step for young firemen?
 

railfan99

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I understand Australia still mines coal. Is it more expensive from there than it is from Kazakhstan or Columbia?

It is expensive, but as a shareholder in multiple Australian listed companies mining coal such as Whitehaven Coal (ASX:WHC), thermal coal exports (largely from Hunter Valley, NSW, exported through the Port of Newcastle, NSW, now the world's largest coal port) are booming. New Hope Coal (ASX:NHC) is another. These flow down the rail lines from Narrabri, NSW and the branch line from Ulan, NSW (very scenic) through Muswellbrook, Singleton and Maitland to Newcastle:



Tancoal (ASX:YAL) produces lower quality thermal coal and reported last week nine per cent of sales were to Europe, compared to one per cent a year ago.

Australia also mines coking coal (i.e. for steelmaking), largely in Queensland that's exported using rail through ports such as Dalrymple Bay. Qld's rail network (except to Sydney) is narrow gauge (1067mm) but NSW's is standard gauge (1435mm).

There are grades suitable for your UK steam locos available, but along with high prices given the huge demand from Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines and now Europe, it's expensive, and the cost of transporting it on bulk ships high.

Discussion on coal supplies for your wonderful UK heritage railways has become muted, so is the HRA thinking of importing the 26,000 annual tonnes required for all operators in total? I'd love Australia to help!
 

alexl92

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I think the debate has quietened down a bit because the last remaining welsh mine, which ceased producing coal earlier this year due to an equipment failure, has I understand started producing coal again for a while. It won't be indefinite but it's certainly buying time for those developing bio coals.
 

Dai Corner

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I think the debate has quietened down a bit because the last remaining welsh mine, which ceased producing coal earlier this year due to an equipment failure, has I understand started producing coal again for a while. It won't be indefinite but it's certainly buying time for those developing bio coals.
Cwmbargoed?

There's a chap who posts pictures of the daily coal trains on social media and I haven't noticed a pause. Perhaps there is lots of coal extracted but not yet transported?
 

MattRat

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I think the debate has quietened down a bit because the last remaining welsh mine, which ceased producing coal earlier this year due to an equipment failure, has I understand started producing coal again for a while. It won't be indefinite but it's certainly buying time for those developing bio coals.
Honestly, that's good to hear. Welsh coal burns cleaner than imported coal, and transporting it is cleaner too since it doesn't require a cargo ship to get here. Plus, on topic, it's probably cheaper too.
 

railfan99

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Honestly, that's good to hear. Welsh coal burns cleaner than imported coal, and transporting it is cleaner too since it doesn't require a cargo ship to get here. Plus, on topic, it's probably cheaper too.

So given this, can you gents and ladies in the UK see heritage railways in five years' time purchasing coal from Australia (assuming Russian sanctions remain)?

My perception from afar is while Germany has been fast to embrace coal again, the UK (as a whole) is slower, despite your winter coming up and what media suggests is rapidly rising energy bills.

I've not mentioned but there's at least one Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Oz mine producing coal suitable for steam locomotives. I agree, though, bulk ships aren't cheap per day and it's a long way Oz to UK.
 

Dai Corner

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So given this, can you gents and ladies in the UK see heritage railways in five years' time purchasing coal from Australia (assuming Russian sanctions remain)?

My perception from afar is while Germany has been fast to embrace coal again, the UK (as a whole) is slower, despite your winter coming up and what media suggests is rapidly rising energy bills.

I've not mentioned but there's at least one Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Oz mine producing coal suitable for steam locomotives. I agree, though, bulk ships aren't cheap per day and it's a long way Oz to UK.
Whilst a bulk carrier costs a lot to operate it also carries a lot of cargo. We think nothing of importing biomass from North America or oil and liquified gas from the Middle East so coal from Australia doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility given the political difficulties in mining it over here or importing it from Russia or countries under its influence.

A shipful of New South Wales steam coal would probably last the UK steam community (not just railways) a generation if somebody could put up the cash to pay for it up front!?
 

railfan99

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A shipful of New South Wales steam coal would probably last the UK steam community (not just railways) a generation if somebody could put up the cash to pay for it up front!?

If the bulk ship was conveying 80,000 tonnes of coal, that would only last a little over three years as your UK heritage railways' typical annual consumption is 26,000 tonnes.

 

Dai Corner

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If the bulk ship was conveying 80,000 tonnes of coal, that would only last a little over three years as your UK heritage railways' typical annual consumption is 26,000 tonnes.
Ok. I was speculating on the capacity of bulk carriers and demand for coal. Buying three years' supply seems more feasible and carries less risk of coal prices collapsing and being left with unsaleable stock.
 
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