What will happen if, after boarding an Intercity Express Train (IET) with a bike with a reservation, there is no space to put my bike?

[Benjwri]

When the bike is a solution for leisure travel to rural areas where public transport is never viable, what do you think of alternative solutions except a fee for a bike reservation?

When active travel is a government policy, perhaps we shouldn't be looking at decreasing it? The issue that a fee seeks to resolve is either people saying a bike takes up the space of a person, so should pay, which make little sense when they space would otherwise be occupied by ligate, which doesn't have to pay, or that a fee is a method to reduce the amount of people taking a bike on the trains, and therefore reduce active travel.

Perhaps TOCs should take there not being sufficient space on their trains for bikes as a sign that they need to increase their capacity for bikes, rather than increase their profits.

 

[zwk500]

When the bike is a solution for leisure travel to rural areas where public transport is never viable, what do you think of alternative solutions except a fee for a bike reservation?

One solution would be to have a national bike hire scheme integrated into the rail system with the hire fee available as an add-on to the ticket like plus bus, similar to the OV-Fietspad in the Netherlands. However, there are a number of issues with this, the main one being how to ensure sufficient number and quality of bicycles are available at each hire location. It's also really a solution for getting around a destination town, not for going mountain biking in an AONB or similar.

As mentioned above, transporting a bike by train is generally an edge-case scenario, and the question has to be asked how much energy, time and money it is worth expending on individual travel needs compared to mass flows. The active travel the government should really be focusing on is school runs and work commutes, not occasional weekend jaunts.

 

[Towers]

But if zwk500's idea was slightly modified? 2-set trains have staff in each half, yes? So reserved bike spaces could be unlocked before arrival at the departure station (eg after Bath for a Chippenham - Paddington reservation) and left unlocked if not claimed. Now it is possible that space would be filled before Chippers, but much less likely

The issue is that you'd end up on busy trains with the crew doing nothing but running up and down the train doing bikes. That isn't really very good value for money from the industry's point of view!

 

[Shimbleshanks]

This reminds me of an incident about 4-5 years ago when I was boarding an HST that had originated in Aberdeen at Darlington with my bike. The very grumpy Aberdonian guard was adamant that there was "nae room for any mair bikes" while admitting that the bikes that were already occupying the space had been put there without reservations. As this was a late evening service and I had a connection to make at King's Cross to South London, I wasn't willing to wait for the next train as he suggested.
Fortunately the very nice platform staff lady pointed out that there was room in the power car. (That was where the van space was on the HSTs as originally built.) After removing the panniers, we were able to persuade Mr McGrumpy to allow me to push my bike through the corridor connection into the space.

 

[northernbelle]

There are several different issues at play here:

• The bike storage on the 80x fleet is not fit for purpose and needs to be re-thought.
• The priority of seats over luggage/bikes has eased with post-Covid travel patterns and fleets should be retrofitted with more flexible space (noting the shift from commuting to leisure).
• It is simply not possible to provide enough storage for every eventuality - a balance needs to be struck. There will always be situations where there are more bikes than space available.
• There are plenty of bike and e-bike hire schemes near railway stations - part of the railway's solution needs to be supporting and investing in the further roll out of these.

 

[Malaxa]

As mentioned above, transporting a bike by train is generally an edge-case scenario, and the question has to be asked how much energy, time and money it is worth expending on individual travel needs compared to mass flows. The active travel the government should really be focusing on is school runs and work commutes, not occasional weekend jaunts.

Bikes tend to be banned at times and in directions of mass flows. Generally, when I've travelled with a specialist event bike, the train is not very full at all. It seems that the railways are forcing me to buy a car and once there never to travel by train again.

 

[Fyldeboy]

Perhaps TOCs should take there not being sufficient space on their trains for bikes as a sign that they need to increase their capacity for bikes, rather than increase their profits.

Business doesn't work that way - the railway is there (post covid) to make money, primarily for the government (or at least haemorage less money for the government). With the current situation, the more effective it is, the better it is for you and your overall tax-bill.

 

[Benjwri]

Business doesn't work that way - the railway is there (post covid) to make money, primarily for the government (or at least haemorage less money for the government). With the current situation, the more effective it is, the better it is for you and your overall tax-bill.

I don't earn enough to pay tax, and already struggle with money as a student. The railway is already prohibitively expensive, and it is in fact cheaper to drive in some situations. Depending on how much it costs, for me and many others bike reservations fees could be the difference between bringing a bike we need and just going without it and the exercise.

 

[Trainbike46]

The assertion that the railway could make more money by not carrying bikes, or charging for bikes like they do for passengers, is a bit of a red herring in many situations; on a lot of stock, including IC225, HSTs, 390s and 80x, the bike places are located in a space where you couldn't put passengers anyway, so it's not as if the bike is preventing tickets from being sold.

And on a lot of routes where people could travel in the bike spaces (so stock such as thameslink trains), bikes are usually resctricted during busy times, and at quiet times it's not like more tickets would be sold if not carrying bikes.

 

[VC00]

Is there a reason why bikes can't be carried on the Scotrail HSTs? I was allowed to put one in the guards cab when there was no space when they first came out but you don't seem to be able to anymore, doesn't seem to make sense considering how many cyclists use the trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a reason why bikes can't be carried on the Scotrail HSTs?

They are.

I was allowed to put one in the guards cab when there was no space when they first came out but you don't seem to be able to anymore, doesn't seem to make sense considering how many cyclists use the trains.

They've created some new spaces in the saloon for them.

 

[VC00]

Do they have the new spaces on all of the trains? I thought it was just on a few of their HSTs? Is there a specific reason why they couldn't allow bikes to go into the guards van?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there a specific reason why they couldn't allow bikes to go into the guards van?

I believe the issue is it being off the platform at some stations.

 

[Towers]

I believe the issue is it being off the platform at some stations.

It also tends to lead to delays, as someone has to unlock and then relock the power car door every time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It also tends to lead to delays, as someone has to unlock and then relock the power car door every time.

Yep, any regular of those lovely extra legroom seats at the cab end of Coach A in Pendolinos will see just how much of an utter faff that all is.

 

[Towers]

Yep, any regular of those lovely extra legroom seats at the cab end of Coach A in Pendolinos will see just how much of an utter faff that all is.

And that, presumably, is with the bikes all in once place?! In this case they'd be in numerous locations all up & down the length of the train!

 

[Techniquest]

I read this thread after somehow not seeing it until I was at break at work today. A very interesting topic, and I have to weigh in here as I take my cycle with me on the vast majority of journeys that I do.

First, it's all fine and well saying about making bike hire near/stations. That on its own is an excellent idea, in theory. Reality is that sometimes you get schemes like the West Midlands Cycle Hire one, and both bikes I used during the Commonwealth Games had incredibly poor brakes that barely worked at all. Maybe the majority of the bikes they have are fine, and I was just ultra unlucky, but I sure won't use them again. Taking the train then hiring a bike during a holiday, again an amazing idea but the infrastructure for such a scheme is just not there. Apart from the Beryl Bikes scheme in Hereford, which is incredibly popular and good value, there is meant to be a bike hire place but I have never found it and I don't know if it actually exists now. I'd love to find it for the days when my cycles are awaiting repairs, last time that happened I ended up in Gloucester and bought a second-hand road cycle!

Second, we don't all travel with our machines just to commute to/from the station. I travel with mine to go exploring places that would be difficult/impossible to reach in one day there and back. With my current circumstances, I can't easily book time off work so I have to use my days off effectively. So that means booking cycle space on trains, and sometimes having to change plans depending on where I can get trains at the appropriate times and fares with a cycle reservation. When I take one of my cycles with me, it's pretty much exclusively for leisure purposes. So a bike hire scheme at a station or nearby would not be terribly helpful for me, unless I was without one of my trusty machines and I needed a ride quickly.

Third, I've never yet had an issue with GWR and reservations. Granted, my most recent IET experience had my cycle reservation in coach B which was way off the end of the platform at Ledbury. I was only going back to Hereford on a quiet Sunday anyway, so even if the space in coach J had been occupied I think the TM would have been considerate of that. I do realise of course when I am out with my road cycle that I am very fortunate that she fits on the hooks of an IET quite easily. My hybrid fits quite well, but is much more effort. That said, it's a lot better than the enormous e-bike someone once filled my allocated space with, I was lucky the other one was empty.

Would I pay extra for a cycle reservation, if it would be definitely honoured and so on? It would depend on the extra fee to be honest, if it was just sharing space with the wheelchair space as on 170s, 172s and many other trains, then I'd not feel it fair to pay for that. Said space is often fully loaded with pushchair users who often take up both sides of the train even if they don't need to. I've also not been able to get to said space on a 172 once because it was fully loaded with drunks consuming even more alcohol!

Now if said fee was in a more protected area, such as the one on a Pendolino, where only people with a reservation are allowed to use it, then I would consider paying the fee. On one of ScotRail's bike-train 153s, if I was doing a journey outside Strathclyde, then yes I'd pay the fee quite happily. £10 to have the security of sitting in the same carriage as my cycle, with properly designed space to secure it, on a journey such as Glasgow to Fort William, then £10 is a fair price. I'd not pay it for something like Dalmuir to Glasgow, that's just being nuts.

Before you ask, yes I would strongly support other operators doing such a thing. The Heart of Wales line, and indeed Pembrokeshire, is crying out for something incredibly useful like the ScotRail bike-train 153s, and yes I would pay a supplement to TfW/other operator if the product was deserving of it.

As for the poor soul who got kicked off two GWR services because the TM wouldn't kick off the passenger with no reservation, yikes! That's absolutely appalling, and if that ever happens to me I won't be amused!

The only time I've not been able to load my cycle properly was last autumn on LNER, who had the decency [sic] to send a 5 vice 10 on my first journey with them. Apparently the door to the space was broken. Which didn't explain how someone else managed to get someone to open it to put their cycle in in London, but I had to leave mine by the area while I took a seat to Doncaster. From there, the best I could was stand with it to Leeds and move when required as best as I could. Being my first experience of LNER, I haven't been back since, apart from a couple of leaps that day (after securing the beast in Leeds) and one more in Scotland in January when it had been secured in Glasgow. The best response LNER could give me was FAQs about seat reservations

 

[Benjwri]

£10 to have the security of sitting in the same carriage as my cycle, with properly designed space to secure it, on a journey such as Glasgow to Fort William, then £10 is a fair price.

I agree a fee such as £10 for a secure bike space, such as those offered on HSTs is worth it.

But I feel a fee for anything less is not, bikes in wheelchair spaces most certainly is not, but I would argue neither is the spaces available on the Class 80x. Perhaps if some mechanism was some up with to make sure only those with reservations could use them, but there is still a lack of security. In their current state though, with them being as much of a free for all as seat reservations, and sometime people even piling luggage on top of your bike, it's a miracle anyone ever bothers to take their bike regularly, let alone pay for it.

 

[miklcct]

I agree a fee such as £10 for a secure bike space, such as those offered on HSTs is worth it.

But I feel a fee for anything less is not, bikes in wheelchair spaces most certainly is not, but I would argue neither is the spaces available on the Class 80x. Perhaps if some mechanism was some up with to make sure only those with reservations could use them, but there is still a lack of security. In their current state though, with them being as much of a free for all as seat reservations, and sometime people even piling luggage on top of your bike, it's a miracle anyone ever bothers to take their bike regularly, let alone pay for it.

I would rather hope to see the future intercity trains have bike spaces similar to those on 444s.

 

[Techniquest]

I agree a fee such as £10 for a secure bike space, such as those offered on HSTs is worth it.

But I feel a fee for anything less is not, bikes in wheelchair spaces most certainly is not, but I would argue neither is the spaces available on the Class 80x. Perhaps if some mechanism was some up with to make sure only those with reservations could use them, but there is still a lack of security. In their current state though, with them being as much of a free for all as seat reservations, and sometime people even piling luggage on top of your bike, it's a miracle anyone ever bothers to take their bike regularly, let alone pay for it.

Agreed, there needs to be enforcement of policy. Admittedly, when I was chasing my last XC 170s after the reforming and renumbering, I did decline the use of the reservation I had on one XC 170 as the train I wanted was the one after it. I'd made a boo-boo with choosing my ticket, so technically I was not travelling correctly, fortunately it was before leisure travel really kicked in again so it wasn't terribly busy and I 'got away with it'. Made easier by the TM on that 170 never coming through anyway!

I think if paying £1 for a space on an IET, so not breaking the bank, meant I would definitely get on without any issue then I'd pay it. I'd then expect cycle policy to be enforced though, and the TM to throw off those without a reservation if those with one were travelling. I'd also expect there to be some compassion, both amongst the cyclists and the TM, in times of disruption etc and agreements come to and so on.

 

[Towers]

I think if paying £1 for a space on an IET, so not breaking the bank, meant I would definitely get on without any issue then I'd pay it. I'd then expect cycle policy to be enforced though, and the TM to throw off those without a reservation if those with one were travelling. I'd also expect there to be some compassion, both amongst the cyclists and the TM, in times of disruption etc and agreements come to and so on.

A fee of £1 is, unfortunately, not likely to stop people booking a space and then not using it. It also won't prevent people boarding with no reservation.

Lots of folk here expecting guards to "kick people off", and seemingly outraged that this didn't happen in the original incident - the railway simply doesn't work like that. Extremely costly delays are, bluntly, far more significant to a TOC than whether or not somebody gets their bike on their intended train. Frontline staff are under pressure to minimise delays, and to avoid starting a punch-up; either between themselves and an angry cyclist, or between two angry cyclists who both want the same space. Some rolling stock makes it easy for staff to supervise and accordingly police cycle traffic, some stock really doesn't. Finding the owner of a bike, turfing them out of their seat and then encouraging them to remove their cycle and leave the train is not a quick process. If they aren't particularly agreeable - and they won't be - it's very likely to be a rather lengthy process. And if they start kicking off it moves into a whole different territory. Quite simply, it's unlikely to be happening the way that some posters here believe it should be, and for good reason. As for the suggestion that a cyclist holding a reservation is entitled to delay a train and demand that the BTP are called, I can only suggest that the actions of the BTP when they arrive are very unlikely to be what said cyclist is expecting them to be; really not advisable. Some issues do not lend themselves to being dealt with appropriately while a train is sat mid-journey blocking a busy platform. It's far from ideal, but that's simply how things are sometimes - in some cases it's a 'customer services later' job.

 

[Falcon1200]

I'd not pay it for something like Dalmuir to Glasgow, that's just being nuts.

I did in fact take my bike on the train from Dalmuir to Glasgow earlier this year, not on a West Highland train but a service starting from Dalmuir, so expected no problem putting my bike in the designated area; However, after standing politely aside to let two young women with a pram board first, they then dumped the pram in the bike area leaving me to stand by the doors ! (They did not seem ladies it would have been wise to challenge.....)

As for the suggestion that a cyclist holding a reservation is entitled to delay a train and demand that the BTP are called, I can only suggest that the actions of the BTP when they arrive are very unlikely to be what said cyclist is expecting them to be; really not advisable. Some issues do not lend themselves to being dealt with appropriately while a train is sat mid-journey blocking a busy platform. It's far from ideal, but that's simply how things are sometimes - in some cases it's a 'customer services later' job.

In the case being discussed the passenger had valid tickets for both themselves and their bike but through no fault of their own were denied travel by the TM, whose actions were unreasonable and demonstrated a total lack of customer care. I very much doubt the TM would have actually detained the train until the BTP arrived (if they would even attend at all for such an incident).

 

[Towers]

In the case being discussed the passenger had valid tickets for both themselves and their bike but through no fault of their own were denied travel by the TM, whose actions were unreasonable and demonstrated a total lack of customer care. I very much doubt the TM would have actually detained the train until the BTP arrived (if they would even attend at all for such an incident).

Respectfully, I disagree. The guard used what might be called 'global awareness', and was looking at a choice of either keeping what was presumably a long distance intercity train moving on time, or causing a delay of what might easily have been 5/10/20 minutes and inconveniencing hundreds of passengers, plus following trains, to enable one passenger to join their booked service. Not necessarily an easy decision, but IMHO the right one. Sometimes the ideal result simply cannot be delivered without causing big problems elsewhere. Take a look at various TOCs' Twitter feeds on any summer weekend for numerous complaints that reservation holders are having to stand, or couldn't board their booked train at all. A difficult scenario, but ultimately the railway needs to keep its trains moving.

 

[Grumbler]

Respectfully, I disagree. The guard used what might be called 'global awareness', and was looking at a choice of either keeping what was presumably a long distance intercity train moving on time, or causing a delay of what might easily have been 5/10/20 minutes and inconveniencing hundreds of passengers, plus following trains, to enable one passenger to join their booked service. Not necessarily an easy decision, but IMHO the right one. Sometimes the ideal result simply cannot be delivered without causing big problems elsewhere. Take a look at various TOCs' Twitter feeds on any summer weekend for numerous complaints that reservation holders are having to stand, or couldn't board their booked train at all. A difficult scenario, but ultimately the railway needs to keep its trains moving.

In view of the inability to provide a workable reservation system for bicycles, the TOCs should simply state that the train does have space for a limited number bikes, but on a first come first served basis only.

 

[Benjwri]

Lots of folk here expecting guards to "kick people off", and seemingly outraged that this didn't happen in the original incident - the railway simply doesn't work like that.

I don't expect guards to kick people off if they don't have a reservation, sometimes people have to chance it, but I do expect the guard to kick the person without a reservation off if they have to choose between two people. When you have to kick someone off, kicking the person who actually booked the service off is in my opinion inexcusable.

 

[Techniquest]

I don't expect guards to kick people off if they don't have a reservation, sometimes people have to chance it, but I do expect the guard to kick the person without a reservation off if they have to choose between two people. When you have to kick someone off, kicking the person who actually booked the service off is in my opinion inexcusable.

I agree totally with that, the passenger with the correct reservations should not be the one who has their journey significantly delayed because someone else couldn't be bothered to get a reservation.

Any time such a thing has to happen, because the TM does not want a riot to start and rightly so, then the passenger who is inconvenienced must have their tickets endorsed to allow travel on another train. That seems only a fair compromise, and automatically qualify the affected passenger for Delay Repay.

Quite how this would work if it had happened to me on Thursday I don't know. I had an Advance and cycle reservation booked from Llandeilo to Hereford via Craven Arms. No issues on said journey, the space for cycles on the 153 was not filled with luggage which made a nice change. If I had been denied boarding with my cycle, the next train would have been 4 hours later. In such a situation, I don't know how I'd have been allowed to travel, but I'd have certainly had a conversation with the TM. A polite one, just to be clear!

Such situations need to be made crystal clear in TOC and national policy, so that everyone knows where they stand. I am given to believe from this thread that is not the case!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In view of the inability to provide a workable reservation system for bicycles, the TOCs should simply state that the train does have space for a limited number bikes, but on a first come first served basis only.

Same with seats. If reservations will not be strictly enforced then they should not be offered, as the product is effectively mis-sold.

 

[Benjwri]

Any time such a thing has to happen, because the TM does not want a riot to start and rightly so, then the passenger who is inconvenienced must have their tickets endorsed to allow travel on another train. That seems only a fair compromise, and automatically qualify the affected passenger for Delay Repay.

Such situations need to be made crystal clear in TOC and national policy, so that everyone knows where they stand. I am given to believe from this thread that is not the case!

To be fair the following policy is quoted on the National Rail site:

If you are travelling with a bike and have purchased an Advance ticket for a train on which bikes are permitted but bike reservations are not possible, and there is no room for the bike on the booked train for the Advance ticket, then you can travel on the next train with the same ticket on which there is a bike space available.

So you wouldn't be left without a ticket, but still would be greatly inconvenienced.

Admittedly it is harder to find the cyclist who has left their bike in a reserved space and gone to sit down, than the cyclist with a reservation who has been forced to prop their bike up in a gangway, but in my case the TM had the discussion with me just as we left Didcot, and stood with me all the way to Swindon to make sure I got off, making absolutely no attempt to even find the other person who's bike it was in the 20 or so minutes between. That is inexcusable in my opinion.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

When active travel is a government policy, perhaps we shouldn't be looking at decreasing it? The issue that a fee seeks to resolve is either people saying a bike takes up the space of a person, so should pay, which make little sense when they space would otherwise be occupied by ligate, which doesn't have to pay, or that a fee is a method to reduce the amount of people taking a bike on the trains, and therefore reduce active travel.

Perhaps TOCs should take there not being sufficient space on their trains for bikes as a sign that they need to increase their capacity for bikes, rather than increase their profits.

This gets to the underlying fundamental issue, which is that if the cycle space and associated seat were not occupied by the bicycle and accompanying cyclist they would usually be empty. During the day round here it is common to find more cycles on the train than spaces, but plenty of empty seats. The regional staff are very helpful in accommodating cycles, showing a grasp of both customer service and commercial reality.

Whoever specified the trains has failed to grasp commercial reality, preferring for most of the day to carry empty seats and turn away, deter, penalise or at best inconvenience potential bicycle customers. This is an industry receiving considerable government subsidy failing to recognise it's duty to develop the revenue needed to reduce those subsidies. The delinquent guard's actions fit very well into this context.

 

[Benjwri]

cycle space and associated seat

GWR cycle spaces don't even have an associated seat, they generally reserve you a seat in the other 5 cars of a 10 car set. GWR cycle spaces only take up what would be a luggage rack, and they are actually equipped to become this when there are no bikes in them. So if they are empty, they would be empty whatever they were. They most certainly aren't a waste of space, as the only time I've seen the vestibule luggage racks used as anything other than a bin is when bikes aren't permitted towards London.