Northern cancellations getting worse

[northwichcat]

While Northern have been cancelling services due to staff shortages for some time, they do seem to have got much worse in the past few days.

Today is the first day I've noticed they've deleted Sunday Mid-Cheshire services from RTT (what they will be claiming is a short notice change to the timetable). When this happens they don't advertise the cancellation on Journey Check and won't organise a replacement bus service. This means 4 hours gaps in service without any replacement buses requested.

Yesterday evening the 21:40 Manchester to Chester was deleted from the timetable and the 22:40 was a short notice cancellation due to staff shortages. While the advertised the 22:40 was cancelled they just added a note saying 'passengers should travel on the next service'. The 23:40 was a 2 carriage service, so not only did Northern make no attempt to arrange replacement transport, they made no attempt to strengthen the last service after the previous two had been cancelled. There was also an instance of a short notice cancellation being the service after a deleted service during the week.

I know that these issues have been going on for months and some lines, such as the Stoke route, have been affected more than others. As Northern are actually running a reduced service on the Glossop line due to an infrastructure problem, why are they having issues staffing so many other services out of Piccadilly? I notice the Wilmslow route is also being affected.

 

[Howardh]

While Northern have been cancelling services due to staff shortages for some time, they do seem to have got much worse in the past few days.

Today is the first day I've noticed they've deleted Sunday Mid-Cheshire services from RTT (what they will be claiming is a short notice change to the timetable). When this happens they don't advertise the cancellation on Journey Check and won't organise a replacement bus service. This means 4 hours gaps in service without any replacement buses requested.

Yesterday evening the 21:40 Manchester to Chester was deleted from the timetable and the 22:40 was a short notice cancellation due to staff shortages. While the advertised the 22:40 was cancelled they just added a note saying 'passengers should travel on the next service'. The 23:40 was a 2 carriage service, so not only did Northern make no attempt to arrange replacement transport, they made no attempt to strengthen the last service after the previous two had been cancelled. There was also an instance of a short notice cancellation being the service after a deleted service during the week.

I know that these issues have been going on for months and some lines, such as the Stoke route, have been affected more than others. As Northern are actually running a reduced service on the Glossop line due to an infrastructure problem, why are they having issues staffing so many other services out of Piccadilly? I notice the Wilmslow route is also being affected.

I've noticed issues in the evening around Northwich, think it's normally one train per hour but the one I wanted to use last week was cancelled so the next was an hour later. A quick look suggests normal service next week (for now!).

Thewe is little alternative if those evening trains are cancelled other tan wait, there is a bus to Warrington (9a) but the last one leaves just after 6pm.

 

[northernchris]

While Northern have been cancelling services due to staff shortages for some time, they do seem to have got much worse in the past few days.

Today is the first day I've noticed they've deleted Sunday Mid-Cheshire services from RTT (what they will be claiming is a short notice change to the timetable). When this happens they don't advertise the cancellation on Journey Check and won't organise a replacement bus service. This means 4 hours gaps in service without any replacement buses requested.

Northern did advertise on their website on Friday they were short notice cancellations for today, although admittedly there's no mention of the Mid-Cheshire route.

Timetables are changing - 11 December

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

I dislike the practice of removing trains from the timetable the night before and do think alternative transport should be provided, especially if there's long gaps in service. I thought the Sunday cancellations had settled down in the west, but seemingly things are on a downward spiral again.

 

[northwichcat]

Thewe is little alternative if those evening trains are cancelled other tan wait, there is a bus to Warrington (9a) but the last one leaves just after 6pm.

There's a timetable revision to the CAT9 bus effective from tomorrow. The last bus to Warrington from Northwich Tesco will be at 18:46. That arrives in to Warrington at 19:32 so the next train from Central to Manchester will be the 19:58 to Manchester Oxford Road. By the time that gets to Manchester, the 19:30 Northwich to Manchester train should be there.

Also worth remembering only alternate Northwich to Warrington services go via Tescos, the others go via Winnington.

I thought the Sunday cancellations had settled down in the west, but seemingly things are on a downward spiral again.

There were some last weekend, which I would have thought they would have wanted to avoid with Pride being on. I would have also hoped the Stoke line closure for engineering works would have reduced any burden on resources for Sunday services.

 

[setdown]

It's not just Sundays. I travel on Northern rarely now, but have been affected by cancellations in the evening peak on the Mid Cheshire line in the past couple of weeks. And although it's less of an issue, the trains I have travelled on are absolutely filthy, haven't had a good clean in years by the looks of it. Very much in the managed decline phase now, sad.

 

[Halwynd]

I went to Gathurst station yesterday intending to catch the first train towards Manchester at 06:44. It was cancelled. The next train, due at 07:00, was shown as 'delayed' before the information display gave up and went blank. I decided not to hang around and walked home. When I checked online it seems that the delayed second train did run, but Northern decided to run it non-stop from Southport to Wigan because it was 20 minutes late. What a way to treat those passengers who decided to stick it out and wait!

Whilst I wasn't intending to travel today, I've just looked and the first Manchester-bound service this morning, due at 09:09, was cancelled. As was the next service an hour later, and the next and then the next. The first train of the day towards Manchester was at 13:06!

I really don't have any words for the state of the railway service in my neck of the woods at the moment (Northern, Avanti and Transpennine) except to say that as someone who has enjoyed travelling by rail since 1975, and who has, in the past, gone out of his way to encourage others to travel by rail, I have never known the service to be as disgraceful as it is today. It just *feels* to me as if the railway collectively has given up and isn't really bothered any more.

I've decided I'm not going to waste my time with it any more, it is just too much aggravation. I am lucky to have my own car so if the railway doesn't want my money I'm sure BP will happily take it instead. I had to travel to Glasgow last week, a journey I would always make by train without hesitation. This time my first thought was 'Avanti - oh no', so I ended up driving and parked up at a Subway P&R. I wasn't really looking forward to it but I actually enjoyed the drive - all completely stress-free. Relatively light traffic from north of Preston and a stop at the Tebay farm shop on the way back was a bonus. And now I've done it that way once, I'll do it that way next time too - but I feel so sorry for those who have no choice but to rely upon the railway at the moment.

What a sad state of affairs.

 

[northwichcat]

Whilst I wasn't intending to travel today, I've just looked and the first Manchester-bound service this morning, due at 09:09, was cancelled. As was the next service an hour later, and the next and then the next. The first train of the day towards Manchester was at 13:06!

I can't confirm if it ran but there was a 11:14 Gathurst to Victoria replacement bus scheduled.

I really don't have any words for the state of the railway service in my neck of the woods at the moment (Northern, Avanti and Transpennine) except to say that as someone who has enjoyed travelling by rail since 1975, and who has, in the past, gone out of his way to encourage others to travel by rail, I have never known the service to be as disgraceful as it is today. It just *feels* to me as if the railway collectively has given up and isn't really bothered any more.

Things are so bad that many people weren't interested in the £1 Northern sale because they thought the saving isn't worth the hassle of dealing with trains not turning up. Likewise, people don't want Northern complimentary tickets anymore because they don't want to travel with Northern. They are opting for £2 or £3 compensation over a ticket that could be used for a free journey to somewhere like Windermere!

 

[Halwynd]

I can't confirm if it ran but there was a 11:14 Gathurst to Victoria replacement bus scheduled.



Things are so bad that many people weren't interested in the £1 Northern sale because they thought the saving isn't worth the hassle of dealing with trains not turning up. Likewise, people don't want Northern complimentary tickets anymore because they don't want to travel with Northern. They are opting for £2 or £3 compensation over a ticket that could be used for a free return journey to somewhere like Windermere!

That doesn't surprise me. I received two emails and then a reminder about the Northern £1 offer but didn't bother looking. The hassle travelling with a flexible ticket is bad enough, but an Advance Purchase is just asking for trouble at the moment.

 

[D6130]

As has been stated before, this seems to be very much a problem with the Western Division of Northern, whose train crews are still more-or-less on the old BR terms and conditions with Sundays outside of the working week. The Eastern and Northern Divisions, while far from perfect, do seem to suffer from far fewer cancellations. The majority of the small number of cancellations that we do experience on the Calder Valley line are due to issues with Blackpool and Manchester Victoria crews.

 

[northwichcat]

a problem with the Western Division of Northern, whose train crews are still more-or-less on the old BR terms and conditions with Sundays outside of the working week.

This isn't an issue limited to 'short notice changes to the timetable' happening on Sundays. It's happening 7 days a week, even if Sundays are most affected. There were 9 or 10 cancellations on the Mid-Cheshire line yesterday and they all related to staffing issues. Normally if there's that many cancellations it means there's been an infrastructure defect which has taken hours to resolve.

 

[Moonshot]

This isn't an issue limited to 'short notice changes to the timetable' happening on Sundays. It's happening 7 days a week, even if Sundays are most affected. There were 9 or 10 cancellations on the Mid-Cheshire line yesterday and they all related to staffing issues. Normally if there's that many cancellations it means there's been an infrastructure defect which has taken hours to resolve.

Yes you are correct. There are some significant driver numbers not available at the moment for a variety of reasons. No volunteers working today either due to being in dispute

 

[northwichcat]

A quick look suggests normal service next week (for now!).

18:39 Manchester to Chester, 21:00 Chester to Manchester & 22:42 Manchester to Chester have now been deleted from the schedule for tomorrow (Monday).

Ironically it might be a better service the following week when some late trains are scheduled to be replaced by buses due to engineering works!

 

[Agent_Squash]

The hassle travelling with a flexible ticket is bad enough, but an Advance Purchase is just asking for trouble at the moment.

Not really? You just get the next train to your destination - as you would on a flexible ticket!

 

[northwichcat]

Not really? You just get the next train…

If you have an advance for 09:30 Northwich to Manchester and another for 14:40 Manchester to Chester and the 09:30 is cancelled then yes, you can catch the 10:30 instead. However, if the 14:40 runs you have to be on it, so it's an hour less in Manchester.

 

[Agent_Squash]

If you have an advance for 09:30 Northwich to Manchester and another for 14:40 Manchester to Chester and the 09:30 is cancelled then yes, you can catch the 10:30 instead. However, if the 14:40 runs you have to be on it, so it's an hour less in Manchester.

That’s true. But the Advance has still done it’s job, getting you to your destination (which the previous post implied you couldn’t) and hopefully saving money.

Of course, the fact that Northern is an unpredictable mess is another issue entirely.

 

[Halwynd]

Not really? You just get the next train to your destination - as you would on a flexible ticket!

If you have an advance for 09:30 Northwich to Manchester and another for 14:40 Manchester to Chester and the 09:30 is cancelled then yes, you can catch the 10:30 instead. However, if the 14:40 runs you have to be on it, so it's an hour less in Manchester.

That’s true. But the Advance has still done it’s job, getting you to your destination (which the previous post implied you couldn’t) and hopefully saving money.

Of course, the fact that Northern is an unpredictable mess is another issue entirely.

If the 10:00 to Lancaster is cancelled (an imaginary service), a flexible ticket would allow me to use the 10:25 Avanti service (if that runs of course!), rather than wait for the next Northern service at 11:00. Ticket acceptance is often hit and miss and my experience tells me that Northern have no problem with making their customers wait an hour for the next service. Over the years, I've had too much hassle with Advance Purchase tickets to be bothered with them now - cheap or otherwise! Others might value the saving they offer, which is fair enough - we all like a bargain!

 

[Bertie the bus]

Northern on the western side is getting close to unusable again. As well as increased cancellations the dreaded delay at Manchester Oxford Road due to no relief crew has resurfaced with a vengeance. It is all getting reminiscent of 2018.

 

[td97]

I travel a regular 2-4 days per week with Northern (North West region). My delay repays with Northern over summer have been (with no significant annual leave periods).
June - 3
July - 2
August - 1
September - 1
My experience does not tally with yours.

 

[northwichcat]

I travel a regular 2-4 days per week with Northern (North West region). My delay repays with Northern over summer have been (with no significant annual leave periods).
June - 3
July - 2
August - 1
September - 1
My experience does not tally with yours.

I've done 5 claims in the past few months. 2 aren't Northern ones but out of the 3 that are, 2 were in August, while in August I averaged less than 1 return journey per week!

September so far as been 2 weekdays and one weekend, so 1 in 4 days you've submitted a Delay Repay claim! If it continues at that rate you'll have over 90 in 12 months!

 

[NorthWestRover]

I had to go to Bolton from Wigan today. There is nominally an hourly service on a Sunday, however it was every two hours today. If one of those got cancelled, you'd have a hefty wait. However, the £2 bus fare cap means there is a good alternative (not that I've looked at the timetable).

 

[jonnyfan]

The poor performance on the West side of Northern is predominantly because the driver's union and the company can't agree on the rosters that have been in place since May. This means drivers are still working to pre-May working hours, which don't match the new jobs that have been in place. There are more than enough drivers in to cover everything, just that they are in at the wrong times. Neither side will budge on their position. Some days they can cut and paste all the jobs and manage to cover them all.
Add in no rest day working for drivers and the lack of goodwill from all train crew due to the ongoing industrial disputes, it all results in a very messy and increasingly unreliable operation.

 

[Howardh]

The poor performance on the West side of Northern is predominantly because the driver's union and the company can't agree on the rosters that have been in place since May. This means drivers are still working to pre-May working hours, which don't match the new jobs that have been in place. There are more than enough drivers in to cover everything, just that they are in at the wrong times. Neither side will budge on their position. Some days they can cut and paste all the jobs and manage to cover them all.
Add in no rest day working for drivers and the lack of goodwill from all train crew due to the ongoing industrial disputes, it all results in a very messy and increasingly unreliable operation.

Whatever their situation, I just wish there was a guarantee that the last train would run; example I would like a night out in Blackpool (and so would meany others no doubt now the illuminations are on) but dread getting to the station and the 2319 cancelled. If that happened I wouldn't know where to start r/e getting home. Taxi, get a reciept and send them the bill?

 

[peter166]

I also ignored the email about Northerns £1 offer. They marketed it in a previous email as a forthcoming 'surprise'. The only surprise would be if they started running a reliable service. There is no way I would contemplate using a Northern train ( or Avanti or TPE ) for any journey at present. All have a reduced timetable & numerous short notice cancellations. The raiways in the North West are a utter shambles.

 

[Howardh]

I also ignored the email about Northerns £1 offer. They marketed it in a previous email as a forthcoming 'surprise'. The only surprise would be if they started running a reliable service. There is no way I would contemplate using a Northern train ( or Avanti or TPE ) for any journey at present. All have a reduced timetable & numerous short notice cancellations. The raiways in the North West are a utter shambles.

Our brands are Transpennine, Northern and Avanti. What have we done to deserve...

Anecdotally I met one of our lady badminton players on the local bus, who had just endured a trip across the Pennines and back. Numerous cancellations, think she said she was on an advance ticket between Bolton and York ret, and made her way home via all points except the ones the ticket was valid for. Sounds like she came back via Harrogate, Bradford and Blackburn, way off the original itinery - just to get home!

I fancy any guard or inspector challenging the validity of the original ticket might have recieved a lesson in Lancashire mill vocabulary and invited to have a day in front of a magistrate with her. Not a happy bunny!!

 

[tbtc]

As has been stated before, this seems to be very much a problem with the Western Division of Northern, whose train crews are still more-or-less on the old BR terms and conditions with Sundays outside of the working week. The Eastern and Northern Divisions, while far from perfect, do seem to suffer from far fewer cancellations. The majority of the small number of cancellations that we do experience on the Calder Valley line are due to issues with Blackpool and Manchester Victoria crews.

The big difference as I see it is that they are getting flack for cancelling a small number of journeys west of the Pennines at short notice

Meanwhile, East of the Pennines they’ve effectively abandoned certain routes (Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford is just about daily rather than hourly, Scunthorpe to Doncaster replaced by buses, Doncaster to Sheffield stoppers changed from every half hour to every hour and a half, routes like Bradford to Huddersfield every two hours rather than hourly)

But who’s going to stop them?

Serco/ Abellio / Arriva had signed a contract and faced penalties if they didn’t deliver (as well as reputational damage if a failing franchise turned people off their other products)

So what are the Government going to do to the failing Government operated Northern? Fine them (which the taxpayer would effectively have to fund)? Strip the Operator Of Last Resort of the franchise and give it to the Operator Of Absolutely Definitely The Last Resort And This Time I Mean It?

There’s no accountability, there are no meaningful penalties; we have the state run trains that most enthusiasts have been clamouring for (on state owned infrastructure as well, with frequencies/ fares/ service patterns set by the state), congratulations on getting the Publicly Owned Railway that you prioritised above other objectives…

…now can you see why a minority of people warned that it wouldn’t be a magic bullet and may well be a step backwards?

 

[AlastairFraser]

I travel a regular 2-4 days per week with Northern (North West region). My delay repays with Northern over summer have been (with no significant annual leave periods).
June - 3
July - 2
August - 1
September - 1
My experience does not tally with yours.

I travel both days every weekend with Northern in the North West again.
I've had about 30 to 40 opportunities for DR over the year. You may be lucky to travel during the week, but it's chaos with at least 1 cancellation nearly every
weekend.

I think the main issue with Northern is the overzealous approach to revenue protection while there is widespread punctuality, cleanliness and reliability problems. They need to realise that it'll just get customers' backs up if they continue creating huge queues at Manchester Piccadilly using the manual revenue protection method rather than asking NR to invest in some ticket barriers for the non/TPE Avanti platforms.

The big difference as I see it is that they are getting flack for cancelling a small number of journeys west of the Pennines at short notice

Meanwhile, East of the Pennines they’ve effectively abandoned certain routes (Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford is just about daily rather than hourly, Scunthorpe to Doncaster replaced by buses, Doncaster to Sheffield stoppers changed from every half hour to every hour and a half, routes like Bradford to Huddersfield every two hours rather than hourly)

But who’s going to stop them?

Serco/ Abellio / Arriva had signed a contract and faced penalties if they didn’t deliver (as well as reputational damage if a failing franchise turned people off their other products)

So what are the Government going to do to the failing Government operated Northern? Fine them (which the taxpayer would effectively have to fund)? Strip the Operator Of Last Resort of the franchise and give it to the Operator Of Absolutely Definitely The Last Resort And This Time I Mean It?

There’s no accountability, there are no meaningful penalties; we have the state run trains that most enthusiasts have been clamouring for (on state owned infrastructure as well, with frequencies/ fares/ service patterns set by the state), congratulations on getting the Publicly Owned Railway that you prioritised above other objectives…

…now can you see why a minority of people warned that it wouldn’t be a magic bullet and may well be a step backwards?

The problem is the DfT controlling it has an agenda of cost cutting across the railway to reduce subsidy. If the relevant problematic ministers/ civil servants were removed from their posts and replaced by someone fully understanding the path to growth of the Northern franchise (and subsequent reduction in subsidy), then we would see a gradual improvement in standards. Unfortunately, the nationalisation movement never really envisaged a nationalisation by stealth, adapting the existing broken franchise model. An arms length company like BR is closer to the perfect model.

 

[tbtc]

The problem is the DfT controlling it has an agenda of cost cutting across the railway to reduce subsidy. If the relevant problematic ministers/ civil servants were removed from their posts and replaced by someone fully understanding the path to growth of the Northern franchise (and subsequent reduction in subsidy), then we would see a gradual improvement in standards. Unfortunately, the nationalisation movement never really envisaged a nationalisation by stealth, adapting the existing broken franchise model. An arms length company like BR is closer to the perfect model.

Given how they’ve tinkered with schools/ hospitals/ prisons/ police forces etc over the past dozen years I can’t see the Government ever allowing a multi billion pound industry like the railway to operate autonomously (governments didn’t seem to leave BR alone that much either, given the way that all of the bad things which happened during those fifty years tend to be blamed on pesky politicians rather than BR taking responsibility for mistakes, e.g. route closures, scaled back rolling stock orders, truncated electrification… always the Government’s fault!)

The idea of putting a successor to Sir Topham Hat / Proper Railway Man in charge and leaving them alone for five years at a time is seductive to a lot of enthusiasts but doesn’t seem realistic; if the Government are subsidising the Railway by billions of pounds then they will want to be involved and try to see why this costs so much

In contrast, when we had franchises, we had a seven year bulwark, frequencies/ services were guaranteed during the franchise and there wasn’t the constant tinkering (because, frankly, the Government tended to be scared of messing the likes of Branson/ overseas governments/ FTSE companies around). Now though, we don’t have those protections. Maybe Stagecoach etc were worth the profit margin, when you see how exposed the services now look

 

[Alex1971]

The 14:52 Stockport to Greenbank I normally use when I am coming back from work seems to be cancelled every single day, but its always showing as running and was cancelled last week about 2 minutes before it was due to arrive into Stockport, on the screens it was even showing as having passed Heaton Chapel. Starbucks on Stockport Station are making a small fortune out of me !

 

[Bevan Price]

I had to go to Bolton from Wigan today. There is nominally an hourly service on a Sunday, however it was every two hours today. If one of those got cancelled, you'd have a hefty wait. However, the £2 bus fare cap means there is a good alternative (not that I've looked at the timetable).

Buses every half hour on Sunday daytime, reduced to hourly in the evening - and takes almost an hour from Wigan to Bolton.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 14:52 Stockport to Greenbank I normally use when I am coming back from work seems to be cancelled every single day, but its always showing as running and was cancelled last week about 2 minutes before it was due to arrive into Stockport, on the screens it was even showing as having passed Heaton Chapel. Starbucks on Stockport Station are making a small fortune out of me !

One day last week it ran only Manchester to Stockport!