Northern cancellations getting worse

[AlastairFraser]

Given how they’ve tinkered with schools/ hospitals/ prisons/ police forces etc over the past dozen years I can’t see the Government ever allowing a multi billion pound industry like the railway to operate autonomously (governments didn’t seem to leave BR alone that much either, given the way that all of the bad things which happened during those fifty years tend to be blamed on pesky politicians rather than BR taking responsibility for mistakes, e.g. route closures, scaled back rolling stock orders, truncated electrification… always the Government’s fault!)

The idea of putting a successor to Sir Topham Hat / Proper Railway Man in charge and leaving them alone for five years at a time is seductive to a lot of enthusiasts but doesn’t seem realistic; if the Government are subsidising the Railway by billions of pounds then they will want to be involved and try to see why this costs so much

In contrast, when we had franchises, we had a seven year bulwark, frequencies/ services were guaranteed during the franchise and there wasn’t the constant tinkering (because, frankly, the Government tended to be scared of messing the likes of Branson/ overseas governments/ FTSE companies around). Now though, we don’t have those protections. Maybe Stagecoach etc were worth the profit margin, when you see how exposed the services now look

I mean, a quality state management training scheme would suffice. That's where so many of the problems seem to arise from.

 

[_toommm_]

The service yesterday afternoon from Ince and Elton was cancelled. Luckily I managed to get some replacement transport otherwise it would be a long wait for the next train

 

[XAM2175]

Whatever their situation, I just wish there was a guarantee that the last train would run; example I would like a night out in Blackpool (and so would meany others no doubt now the illuminations are on) but dread getting to the station and the 2319 cancelled. If that happened I wouldn't know where to start r/e getting home. Taxi, get a reciept and send them the bill?

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

Your Rights and Obligations as a Passenger | National Rail

When you buy a train ticket to travel on the rail network, you enter into an agreement with the train companies. Find out about your rights and obligations as a passenger, and how to get more information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

28. What Happens When Things Go Wrong?
28.1 We want you to be satisfied with your journey. If you have any problem that cannot be resolved to your satisfaction at the time, every Train Company provides details of how to make a complaint or comment on its website and on notices at stations and on trains.
28.2 Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.
28.3 Where your train is likely to be delayed for more than 60 minutes, you may use your Ticket to make your journey at a later date subject to comparable restrictions on your Ticket. Please refer to your Train Company’s website or contact them directly for details on how to obtain a replacement Ticket.
28.4 In other circumstances disruption to train services may mean that you are entitled to compensation or a refund on your Ticket. Part F explains your rights to refunds and compensation.
28.5 If your train is delayed for more than 60 minutes, your Train Company may, in certain circumstances, provide you with meals and refreshments if they are available on the train or in the station, or can reasonably be supplied, and in reasonable relation to the waiting time.

Unfortunately, there's no absolute guarantee that Northern (or any other TOC) will actually deliver on any of these. If you have not been able to obtain assistance from Northern, or the staff of any other relevant TOC, you should make your own arrangements - within reason, bearing in mind your legal responsibility to minimise your losses - and seek to recover the costs later.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, if Northern's going down the pan again, at least they have the rest of the railway system to keep them company this time.

My train this morning was cancelled, as well as the next alternative from the mainline station.

Both Northern, both citing staffing shortages.

 

[northwichcat]

The big difference as I see it is that they are getting flack for cancelling a small number of journeys west of the Pennines at short notice

Meanwhile, East of the Pennines they’ve effectively abandoned certain routes (Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford is just about daily rather than hourly, Scunthorpe to Doncaster replaced by buses, Doncaster to Sheffield stoppers changed from every half hour to every hour and a half, routes like Bradford to Huddersfield every two hours rather than hourly)

But who’s going to stop them?

Replacing rail services with buses was tried on the Rose Hill Marple and Windermere routes, but the services got reinstated under political pressure.

It's worth noting in the North West peak time extras haven't operated on some lines since March 2020. While some routes have see a reduced service all day. For example, if you want a Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool via Warrington semi-fast service, you'll have to travel on the hourly EMR service, as the Northern service isn't running.

The 14:52 Stockport to Greenbank I normally use when I am coming back from work seems to be cancelled every single day, but its always showing as running and was cancelled last week about 2 minutes before it was due to arrive into Stockport, on the screens it was even showing as having passed Heaton Chapel. Starbucks on Stockport Station are making a small fortune out of me !

One day last week it ran only Manchester to Stockport!

Showing as cancelled due to a train fault. I notice it departed 4 minutes late even though the inbound service arrived on time. I wonder if that related to the fault. If so perhaps the best option would for the train to have remained at Piccadilly longer. Perhaps separating the two units and putting just a fault-free one out?

The information displays can only do what they've been programmed to show. If the train's departed Manchester and no one has entered anything in to the system about cancelling due to a train fault, then it displays normally. In instances like this a non-automated announcement is often the best way of getting information conveyed. I would say normally the staff at Stockport are good at providing those when needed.

In contrast, when we had franchises, we had a seven year bulwark, frequencies/ services were guaranteed during the franchise and there wasn’t the constant tinkering (because, frankly, the Government tended to be scared of messing the likes of Branson/ overseas governments/ FTSE companies around). Now though, we don’t have those protections. Maybe Stagecoach etc were worth the profit margin, when you see how exposed the services now look

Except when Network Rail signed off the frequencies and then rejected the timetable plans due to delayed infrastructure work, needing infrastructure work that wasn't originally specified etc.

Or when there were franchise agreements in place for local services both in the North West and West Midlands and it became politically convenient to override those to allow enhanced Virgin Trains services.

 

[peter166]

29 cancellations today and numerous services terminating/starting short. Just reflecting a 'normal' Monday for Northern at present.

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Northern JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and Engineering Work...

www.journeycheck.com

 

[td97]

29 cancellations today and numerous services terminating starting short.Just reflecting a 'normal' Monday for Northern st present.

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Northern JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and Engineering Work...

www.journeycheck.com

An unfortunate start to the day with a broken down freight train at Mills Hill, the flooding at Fairfield (now bridge repair) and a signalling failure at Poppleton.

 

[northwichcat]

29 cancellations today and numerous services terminating/starting short. Just reflecting a 'normal' Monday for Northern at present.

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Northern JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and Engineering Work...

www.journeycheck.com

And that excludes the services they deleted from journey planners yesterday evening.

An unfortunate start to the day with a broken down freight train at Mills Hill, the flooding at Fairfield (now bridge repair) and a signalling failure at Poppleton.

Those Drax trains, with all their sustainability advertising, seem to break down a lot.

 

[Matt_pool]

For the past 3 or 4 weeks nearly every day Monday to Friday they alternate cancelling the 17.19 or 17.55 from Lime Street to Oxford Road (today it's the 17.19), and a couple of hours later they alternate cancelling the 20.26 or 20.55 from Lime Street to Oxford Road (today it's the 20.26).

If you miss the 20.26 and the 20.55 is cancelled then you have to wait until 21.55 for the next train. It's ridiculous. Fortunately I can get a bus because I live in Liverpool, but if you need to get to one of the intermediate stops that isn't served by EMR (which isn't many) then you're in a pickle!

And I've given up trying to use trains on that line at the weekend. If they aren't cancelled then the trains that do show up are rammed because they stick on a 2 carriage 150 or 156.

 

[BPN2022]

Middlesbrough v Sunderland on tonight at the Riverside, 8pm kick off. Not possible for away fans to get back.

I see there are 2 ECS after the game going to Heaton via Darlington. Could not one be diverted as a foot-ex via Sunderland?

I understand there may be no conductor resource, which I imagine is the factor.

I guess there is no revenue incentive to put on an extra?

 

[northwichcat]

Middlesbrough v Sunderland on tonight at the Riverside, 8pm kick off. Not possible for away fans to get back.

I see there are 2 ECS after the game going to Heaton via Darlington. Could not one be diverted as a foot-ex via Sunderland?

I understand there may be no conductor resource, which I imagine is the factor.

I guess there is no revenue incentive to put on an extra?

Wow. That post shows the difference in expectation between the North East and North West. The North West passengers are just hoping the timetabled services actually run, while you're wanting a special train to run for a one off event. I'm sure the football club will have organised coaches for away fans, making it a non-issue.

Man United have their own station. I'm sure it's been years since Northern actually served it.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Man United have their own station. I'm sure it's been years since Northern actually served it.

Doesn’t the same football club have a dedicated Metrolink line which is far better suited?

 

[northwichcat]

Doesn’t the same football club have a dedicated Metrolink line which is far better suited?

Not sure what dedicated Metrolink line you're referring to. MediaCity has a designated spur but I'm not aware of any other designated bits. Man United's own website recommends using Old Trafford (next to the cricket ground) or the Imperial War Museum and Wharfside stops

A pair of electric trains with over 500 seats or a pair of trams with 110 seats. which is better suited to moving thousands of passengers?

 

[BPN2022]

Wow. That post shows the difference in expectation between the North East and North West. The North West passengers are just hoping the timetabled services actually run, while you're wanting a special train to run for a one off event. I'm sure the football club will have organised coaches for away fans, making it a non-issue.

Man United have their own station. I'm sure it's been years since Northern actually

Wow. That post shows the difference in expectation between the North East and North West. The North West passengers are just hoping the timetabled services actually run, while you're wanting a special train to run for a one off event. I'm sure the football club will have organised coaches for away fans, making it a non-issue.

Man United have their own station. I'm sure it's been years since Northern actually served it.

A one off event? Many operators plan for these - most TOCs have Events Planning meetings.

It wasn’t a expectation, was a query when I saw there were ECS moves.

You mention coaches, which I am sure there are plenty. But given the railway should be trying to claw back as much £ as possible, surely they would be interested at a 2/4 car foot-ex running to cater for some of the 3,000 away fans. Appreciate the revenue may be lost from ticket barriers being open though, and guards not being able to check.

Northern have ran plenty of footy extras in the past, having been on one or two myself for games.

 

[northwichcat]

A one off event? Many operators plan for these - most TOCs have Events Planning meetings.

It wasn’t a expectation, was a query when I saw there were ECS moves.

You mention coaches, which I am sure there are plenty. But given the railway should be trying to claw back as much £ as possible, surely they would be interested at a 2/4 car foot-ex running to cater for some of the 3,000 away fans. Appreciate the revenue may be lost from ticket barriers being open though, and guards not being able to check.

Northern have ran plenty of footy extras in the past, having been on one or two myself for games.

You posted it in a thread about the high rate of Northern cancellations. I initially looked to see which Middlesbrough trains had been cancelled this evening and what chaos Northern cancellations in Middlesbrough were about to cause!

As mentioned already people can't rely on scheduled Northern services to get to big events. It says a lot that you think passengers in the North East would actually use a special late train, when there's no other option if it fails to show up.

 

[geoffk]

I wonder if the government has considered the impact on local railways (and trams) of the proposed maximum £2 bus fare? I'll answer that question, of course they haven't because each form of transport operates in its own separate box. But if Northern services area as bad as others are saying the loss of revenue to buses could be considerable, despite the slower journey.

 

[BPN2022]

You posted it in a thread about the high rate of Northern cancellations. I initially looked to see which Middlesbrough trains had been cancelled this evening and what chaos Northern cancellations in Middlesbrough were about to cause!

As mentioned already people can't rely on scheduled Northern services to get to big events. It says a lot that you think passengers in the North East would actually use a special late train, when there's no other option if it fails to show up.

Yes, I probably should have found a better thread!

Interesting, I would have thought there would be enough demand - sign of the times that it can’t be relied on unfortunately.

 

[northernchris]

I wonder if the government has considered the impact on local railways (and trams) of the proposed maximum £2 bus fare? I'll answer that question, of course they haven't because each form of transport operates in its own separate box. But if Northern services area as bad as others are saying the loss of revenue to buses could be considerable, despite the slower journey.

I can only comment on West Yorkshire, but Northern have nothing to worry about from the bus companies. They are still cancelling a lot of journeys despite key routes already running at a lower frequency. That then causes the next bus to run late, creating a bigger gap and crowding - and Northern are relatively reliable in the east (so far!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The poor performance on the West side of Northern is predominantly because the driver's union and the company can't agree on the rosters that have been in place since May. This means drivers are still working to pre-May working hours, which don't match the new jobs that have been in place. There are more than enough drivers in to cover everything, just that they are in at the wrong times. Neither side will budge on their position. Some days they can cut and paste all the jobs and manage to cover them all.
Add in no rest day working for drivers and the lack of goodwill from all train crew due to the ongoing industrial disputes, it all results in a very messy and increasingly unreliable operation.

I'd like to know what the actual benefits are of state (ie OLR) management versus the old franchise setup.
The underlying issues at Northern don't seem any nearer to solution.

Chester-Leeds was particularly poor today, with whole or part-cancellations on the entire route.
The cancellations on the Southport-Stalybridge service were also train crew related, not down to the 769s for once.
As there were repeated invitations to claim delay-repay if delays exceeded 15 minutes, I made my first claim today.

 

[Rail Ranger]

For information, I understand that Northern ceased running trains to Manchester United Football Ground Halt due to security concerns following the Manchester Arena bombing.

 

[Malay States]

There were two passengers for Cambridge (not travelling with each other) and one for Harrogate I met at Poulton station this morning. They were irregular travellers but knew of the shambles that the railway is. The 11.28 to York was cancelled, a 3 coach 195. On the day the Blackpool weekend holidaymakers go back home.
The 12.28 ran. Can you imagine the loading on it - the only train to Yorkshire for two hours. Then two hours to Leeds, 3 coaches. Can you imagine what it was like for the two elderly passengers getting to Cambridge.
This is just a snapshot of appalling mess that is Northern at the present time.

 

[nr758123]

They are not cancellations. The are "short-notice changes to the timetable".

 

[Agent_Squash]

Not sure what dedicated Metrolink line you're referring to. MediaCity has a designated spur but I'm not aware of any other designated bits. Man United's own website recommends using Old Trafford (next to the cricket ground) or the Imperial War Museum and Wharfside stops

A pair of electric trains with over 500 seats or a pair of trams with 110 seats. which is better suited to moving thousands of passengers?

Dedicated was the wrong term - apologies.

But Metrolink is a much better option than disrupting Castlefield. At the same frequency trains are better - but 5tph Metrolink is far better than the 1tph that was seen on match days previously via heavy rail.

Anyway, getting back on topic - I’ve not really noticed this reliability crisis on the Cumbria routes. Perhaps I’ve just been lucky, but the Oxenholme shuttle has still been reliable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are not cancellations. The are "short-notice changes to the timetable".

Don't know about you, but I can see a bill and webbed feet and hear a curious quacking noise...

 

[RAPC]

Don't know about you, but I can see a bill and webbed feet and hear a curious quacking noise...

100% agree with you. Northern changing the timetable in the evening for the following day, appears to get them off the hook for delay repay on these 'not at all cancelled' services. Almost impossible for a normal traveller to know what has actually been cancelled and what has been 'changed' in advance, but Northern certainly fall back on this to avoid paying out compensation.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

100% agree with you. Northern changing the timetable in the evening for the following day, appears to get them off the hook for delay repay on these 'not at all cancelled' services. Almost impossible for a normal traveller to know what has actually been cancelled and what has been 'changed' in advance, but Northern certainly fall back on this to avoid paying out compensation.

Every other TOC has also suddenly started using this excuse and policy at the same time.

Surely no coincidence!

 

[ricoblade]

Well, if Northern's going down the pan again, at least they have the rest of the railway system to keep them company this time.

My train this morning was cancelled, as well as the next alternative from the mainline station.

Both Northern, both citing staffing shortages.

There was a cancelled Northern service to Leeds at Sheffield yesterday due to "shortage of traincrew", luckily I was not going that way!

 

[northwichcat]

They are not cancellations. The are "short-notice changes to the timetable".

It's 2022. A lot of people needing the train for work purposes can revise their plans if there's a revised timetable that's made public 2 weeks in advance. While technology exists that allows people to check journey planners at 10pm the night before, it's too late for many people and it is definitely not customer friendly. Northern also keep these cancellations quiet, there's no list of them on their website, Journey check or social media accounts. You have to dig to get information they should be communicating clearly.

 

[Matt_pool]

17.19 and 20.26 from Lime Street to Oxford Road cancelled again today. I think that the message from Northern is, if you want to get home after working 9 to 5 in Liverpool city centre then don't expect to be able to rely on us.

At least they've managed to pull a 3 car 195 out of the bag for the 17.55. I was half expecting it to be a 2 car 150 when I looked on Real Time Trains!

 

[tbtc]

Northern changing the timetable in the evening for the following day, appears to get them off the hook for delay repay on these 'not at all cancelled' services. Almost impossible for a normal traveller to know what has actually been cancelled and what has been 'changed' in advance, but Northern certainly fall back on this to avoid paying out compensation.

Imagine the squeals of outrage if Arriva had their these shabby practices? Or Stagecoach etc…

… but nobody seems to be calling for the public sector operator to be stripped of their contact!

maybe we’ve not got the model of nationalisation that lots of people spent the austerity years arguing for but we’ve certainly got the unaccountable / underperforming/ chaotic public sector mess that I argued against

Be careful what you wish for, folks…