Sprinter Extinction

[skyhigh]

Pretty certain that was the idea behind the 769s, until they were a massive flop.....

Eh? How is a new-build CAF bimode compatible with 195s (which is what I mentioned) or bimode Stadlers anything at all like the 769 concept?

Although I've heard Northern are looking at hybrid 195s, but that's just speculation.

They themselves said that so it wasn't speculation, but it's now on hold/cancelled.

I meant they wanted the 769s to be the bi mode fleet,

'They' being Arriva and DfT. Things are different now.

 

[bramling]

When and if the GWR 150s do go soon, what could replace them on the Devon & Cornwall branches? Perhaps Vivarail 230s if the Greenford branch line trial is sucessful but won't users be happy going from Pacers to 150s to 230s? 2-car 158s could be the replacement if GWR doesn't go for the 230s.

What’s the benefit in having something like a 230 over keeping a tiny fleet of 150s specially for the branches? Though 2-cars of either 158 or 165 would be perfectly suitable from a passenger perspective, subject to any issues over lengths.

 

[Energy]

What’s the benefit in having something like a 230 over keeping a tiny fleet of 150s specially for the branches? Though 2-cars of either 158 or 165 would be perfectly suitable from a passenger perspective, subject to any issues over lengths.

230s are greener since the GWR trial is a BEMU and the 230s are heavily rebuilt so should last for much longer.

 

[JonathanH]

230s are greener since the GWR trial is a BEMU and the 230s are heavily rebuilt so should last for much longer.

But why not put the VivaRail technology under a 466 rather than rolling stock older than the 150s? (I recognise that the D stock got new bogies which mean they are not as old as their oldest components.)

 

[Energy]

But why not put the VivaRail technology under a 466 rather than rolling stock older than the 150s? (I recognise that the D stock got new bogies which mean they are not as old as their oldest components.)

Its possible but the 230s only share the bodyshells and some interior bits with the D stock, the rest is effectively a new train which makes it easier. The 230s are also designed to have a space for battery/diesel/hydrogen rafts (from rebuild), the 466s don't look to have much space underneath.

And the 466s are currently in use by SouthEastern.

 

[JonathanH]

Anglia have replaced a sizeable fleet of 1980s DMUs with new, GWR have redeployed HSTs onto local services, Northern have replaced significant operations with EMUs and 769s, TfW have Class 769s and Mk4 sets, TfL have electrified GOBLIN and a number of Class 230s have also been introduced.

Forgive my ignorance here but I get confused about cascade plans…

… once the 195 carriages are delivered (12x2 + 14x4 + 51x2 + 26x3 = 195?), how many carriages worth of fit units (I.e. ignoring 153s) are unclaimed and available for cascade?

Apart from 170s already accounted for and 153s, this whole lot should free up TfW 150s, 158s and 175s and EMR 156s.

The recent issue seems to have been 153 replacement, and of course TfW continuing to use them. That basically accounted for the spare 172s, and the 156 / 170 from Anglia.

Most of EMR's 156s are meant to go to Northern, but it is less clear what for now as they managed to off load the 153s in any case with only a handful of 156s.

Otherwise, the TfW fleets are up for grabs.

And the 466s are currently in use by SouthEastern.

Indeed, but the end cars of 16 465s aren't. There were also suggestions that 30 321s could get Vivarail batteries.

 

[Trainbike46]

Agreed.


They don't need to be low-floor, per se - they just need to offer level boarding at the standard platform height. If that means that some platforms have to be raised or otherwise modified, then so be it.

That seems dangerous, because then we'll end up with multiple different standard platform heights - not exactly ideal for cascades or otherwise moving stock around

 

[XAM2175]

That seems dangerous, because then we'll end up with multiple different standard platform heights - not exactly ideal for cascades or otherwise moving stock around

There should only be one standard platform height, should there not?

 

[JonathanH]

There should only be one standard platform height, should there not?

In an ideal world maybe, but there isn't one standard platform height because that isn't the legacy, nor will there ever be, but humps can help.

Another issue is curved platforms.

 

[Trainbike46]

There should only be one standard platform height, should there not?

exactly. So increasing the heights of platforms on GWR branches to be higher than that is a bad idea

In an ideal world maybe, but there isn't one standard platform height because that isn't the legacy, nor will there ever be, but humps can help.

There is a standard: 915 mm above rail, and 1115 mm for HS2.

There are platforms that don't meet that (eg eurostar platforms) but that doesn't mean a standard does not exist

Another issue is curved platforms.

That is easily resolved with a sliding step like on the 755s

 

[XAM2175]

exactly. So increasing the heights of platforms on GWR branches to be higher than that is a bad idea

No, you've misunderstood me. The trains should be built in expectation of serving platforms that are of the standard height, and the platforms should be modified so that they are as close to that standard height as is reasonably possible.

Please remember that my original post was merely to clarify that we don't need especially low-floor trains, but rather ones that simply offer level boarding at the standard height.

 

[Trainbike46]

No, you've misunderstood me. The trains should be built in expectation of serving platforms that are of the standard height, and the platforms should be modified so that they are as close to that standard height as is reasonably possible.

Please remember that my original post was merely to clarify that we don't need especially low-floor trains, but rather ones that simply offer level boarding at the standard height.

That's what the UK FLIRT is though, it's built for 915 mm, even though there are some platforms in rural East Anglia that don't meet the standard.

But then I fully agree, the trains should be built for the standard, and platforms upgraded to match that

 

[Benters]

It looks highly likely that all 15x classes will be replaced in the near future. Bearing this in mind, what are the chances of preservation for 150 001 and 150 002, given their importance in starting the Sprinter revolution?
I think the NRM should at least preserve 150 001 in this context. It seems this thread has overlooked this question in its desire to see all 15x classes replaced.

 

[skyhigh]

It looks highly likely that all 15x classes will be replaced in the near future.

Near future for replacement of all 15x? I don't believe that.

 

[JonathanH]

Near future for replacement of all 15x? I don't believe that.

Depends what you define as near future. By 2035 they might all be gone. That could be the near future.

 

[skyhigh]

Depends what you define as near future. By 2035 they might all be gone. That could be the near future.

Fair point. I was thinking 'near future' as within the next 12 months say, rather than 13 years!

 

[Philip]

Assuming HS2 is open to Birmingham within 5 years, this would free up quite a few Pendolinos or 350s as new stock will be used for the HS2 route. Could these be converted to bimode or hybrid and if so replace the 185s which in turn replace 150s?

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If the 230s and younger Sprinters are a no for the GWR South West branches, then does anyone reckon GWR will order a brand new fleet specially for the branches as Greater Anglia have done by bringing in the 755s which are flexible with the sliding door steps? But the DfT may insist on older cascaded stock?

 

[Energy]

If the 230s and younger Sprinters are a no for the GWR South West branches, then anyone reckon GWR will order a brand new fleet specially for the branches as Greater Anglia have done by bringing in the 755s which are flexible with the sliding door steps? The DfT may insist on cascaded stock?

No, the 165/166s can make 2030 according to their owners, there are a load of TfW 158s to replace HSTs and I suspect the 150s will be replaced by some battery 230s. Or the cascaded turbos if 769s ever work.

 

[158747]

Plus there is the old urban myth that the York 150/2s were built with thinner\Russian steel compared to the Derby 150/1s

Definitely sounds like an urban myth, as both the 150/1s and 150/2s were all built at York.

 

[Energy]

Assuming HS2 is open to Birmingham within 5 years, this would free up quite a few Pendolinos or 350s as new stock will be used for the HS2 route. Could these be converted to bimode or hybrid and if so replace the 185s which in turn replace 150s?

350 battery is possible. I'd imagine the 807s leaving Avanti when phase 1 opens and by the time HS2 reaches Manchester the 390s will be 35-40 years old and will need replacement.

 

[Philip]

Taking out GWR's HSTs is a greater priority than the 150s.

Class 150s are knackered and smokey, why do you think the HSTs should go first with their relatively new engines?

 

[RobShipway]

Class 150s are knackered and smokey, why do you think the HSTs should go first with their relatively new engines?

Engines maybe newer, but bodywork on the MK3 carriages and the HST power cars is older as some where built back in about 1975. I believe when doing the work to make the door's automatic on the Mk3 coaches, there was decay found on them, which was patched up. But that patched work would last about 10 - 15 years at most.

 

[py_megapixel]

Class 150s are knackered and smokey, why do you think the HSTs should go first with their relatively new engines?

The unions might ensure it, of course...

 

[skyhigh]

The unions might ensure it, of course...

Nothing to do with the unions. The HSTs are expensive to run and the DfT wants rid.

 

[Benters]

Depends what you define as near future. By 2035 they might all be gone. That could be the near future.

Just to clarify, by 'near future ' I meant within the next 5-10 years. Hopefully, most 15x will be gone by then, starting with classes 150, 153 and 155. Also 150 001 might be preserved for posterity by then. I actually rode on this unit from Stoke to Stafford, when brand new in 1985. I'd just done a long day at college and was impressed by the seating plan and rapid acceleration compared to the first-generation 'fart-carts' still in service. Of course,all that is old hat now!

 

[MattRat]

Assuming HS2 is open to Birmingham within 5 years, this would free up quite a few Pendolinos or 350s as new stock will be used for the HS2 route. Could these be converted to bimode or hybrid and if so replace the 185s which in turn replace 150s?

The 185s are expensive to run. Only reason they're still around is they have the grunt to get over the Pennines. If they aren't scrapped at some point, their only place will be somewhere else equally hilly.

 

[xcooler123]

So having sat down and mapped this out, this is my opinion on where things could end up -

SHORT TERM (0-5 years)
ScotRail
As has been reported in Modern Railways, there is currently a cascade plan in line with electrification in Scotland. Therefore, if this is followed, I do not anticipate much if anything coming south of the border unless absolutely required and all Sprinters will go to scrap once taken out of service.

TfW
Out:
36 x 150/2s > Northern
24 x 158s > GWR
11 x 175/0s > EMR
16 x 175/1s > EMR

It would make sense for the 158s to go to GWR to replace the 12 Castle Sets given they already run on part of the route. The 27 x 175s would directly replace the 26 x 158s at EMR for the LIV-NRW route and give not only a capacity increase as trains could run as 5-cars but also a train which has recently be refurbished (something EMR desperately need). 150/2s to Northern to displace the 150/0s & 150/1s to GWR and create a homogenous fleet. 170s have already been accounted for going to EMR and 153s will hang on until someone decides to put their hand in their pockets for West Wales/HoW.

EMR
Out:
26 x 158s > Northern
20 x 156s > Northern

In:
TfW > 11 x 175/0s
TfW > 16 x 175/1s

158s to Northern to displace 150/0s & 158/7s to GWR and provide additional units, 156s to Northern to replace 155s and provide additional units. 170s from WMT/TfW/Southern already accounted for. The 27 x 175s would directly replace the 26 x 158s at EMR for the LIV-NRW route.

GWR
Out:
12 x HST Castle Sets > scrap
20 x 150/2s > Northern

In:
Northern > 6 x 150/0s
Northern > 46 x 150/1s (not all of them, rest sent for scrap/spares)
Northern > 8 x 158/7s
TfW > 24 x 158s

158s from TfW to displace 12 Castle Sets. 150/2s to Northern to create a homogeneous fleet. All 150/0s and some 150/1s from Northern in return to run Devon & Cornwall branch services & provide capacity increase. 158/7s from Northern to provide additional capacity for GWR regional services.

Northern
Out:
6 x 150/0s > GWR
46 x 150/1s > GWR (not all of them, rest sent for scrap/spares)
7 x 155s > scrap
8 x 158/7s > GWR

In:
TfW > 36 x 150/2s
GWR > 20 x 150/2s
EMR > 20 x 156s
EMR > 26 x 158s

All 150/0s and some 150/1s from Northern to run Devon & Cornwall branch services & provide capacity increase. 155s to scrap when they are displaced by 156s from EMR. 158/7s to GWR to provide capacity boost, replaced by 26 x 158s from EMR. All 150/2s end up at Northern to create a homogeneous fleet, 156s and 158s from EMR to replace 150/0s, 155s & 158/7s plus provide additional rolling stock.

So realistically the only Sprinters that could potentially go are the 150s (by my prediction the 150/1s) and 155s plus the Castle Sets.

MEDIUM TERM (5-15 YEARS)
The most pressing things to replace will be the 150s. GWR ones are likely to be replaced with something similar to Class 230 battery power if successful on the Greenford branch. That leaves about 82 150/2s at Northern to be replaced. Depending on further electrification schemes it will likely be battery/AC metro trains with some internal cascading. Latest 150s will go will be 2030.

The 71 x 156s, 129 x 158s and 30 159s will likely be replaced with bi or tri mode trains dependent on electrification and advancement of alternative fuels. 156s likely to be around until 2030 and 158s & 159s likely to be around until 2035.

 

[tomuk]

150/2s to Northern to displace the 150/0s & 150/1s to GWR and create a homogenous fleet.

Why not send the 150/2s direct to GWR they were all part of the same Wales and West fleet at one time and have the same 2+2 interior apart from two odd ones.

 

[Speed43125]

Why not send the 150/2s direct to GWR they were all part of the same Wales and West fleet at one time and have the same 2+2 interior apart from two odd ones.

I'm assuming it's the gangway connections that the poster wants for the more intensive commuter operations the northern fleet is employed on.