Worst Rail Routes for fare collection in members' experience?

[AlterEgo]

All Southeastern services, they were irregular before covid but are almost non existent now.

There do appear to be plenty of BTP revenue blocks and “stings” on the Slade Green rounders though. My local is Woolwich Arsenal.

 

[py_megapixel]

If staff sell tickets on board, are they printed from the handheld, or do they write a paper ticket?

The handheld device these days tends to just be a smartphone or similar device in a big case, and guards carry a little thermal printer which connects to it. This is used for printing tickets and receipts. Example of a ticket printed from one of these machines (sometimes derogatorily known as "bog roll" on this forum)

Do they accept Visa/Mastercard (depending on reception!) or cash? Do they give change?

They should accept cards or cash, and give change. However, you are not generally allowed to pay on board if there was a ticket machine at the station which offered a suitable method of payment for you. This means if there is a ticket machine that accepts cards at your origin station and you try to pay with a card on board, you may not be allowed to.

I think in some cases they only have a contactless reader and not chip and pin, though.

Do they have a laminated sheet or small book from which to calculate fares between station X and station Y?

No, they look up ticket prices using the handheld unit.

And the last one for me specificially: I'll travel with a 1st class Eurailpass. The latter's Global Passes have been valid in UK since 2019, but am I going to have endless discussions with staff who haven't seen one and who incorrectly believe I'm trying to (as we say in Australia "pull a swifty" over them? (i.e. mislead/lie to them).

You may well have issues. I have had a 0% success rate with Interrail passes being recognised by scanners in this country, whether on the guard's device or on ticket gates.

 

[camflyer]

In my experience, GA guards are pretty quick at checking tickets, but, at most other TOCs, tickets are not checked as much.

Yes, almost always checked on GA as they have a lot of stations without gatelines. Almost never on Thameslink or GreatNorthern.

I did KX to Cambridge North yesterday and gatelines were open at each end. In fact the gatelines to platforms 0-8 are almost always open.

 

[PaulJ]

My experience with Southeastern is that if there is a check it is usually only after one or two stations along the entire route. I travelled from Canterbury to Victoria via Maidstone recently and the only check was just after leaving Maidstone.

Do also bear in mind that there is a station every couple of minutes between Canterbury West and Ashford, and they all have short platforms too. Therefore there is very little time to do ticket checks on that stretch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2022 ==

Southeastern is very hit and mis. i’ve had 7/8 checks since last october (local TOC) travelling once/twice every fortnight. all bar one have been on the Hastings route, either just leaving london bridge or somewhere on the 1066 line

most conductors don’t bother doing them from Victoria to Bromley on Chatham fasts, as most use oyster/contactless and empties out at bromley making it slightly easier

Re Victoria to Bromley - this is true. Conductors are not able to check Oyster cards or contactless transactions.

 

[Scott1]

And the last one for me specificially: I'll travel with a 1st class Eurailpass. The latter's Global Passes have been valid in UK since 2019, but am I going to have endless discussions with staff who haven't seen one and who incorrectly believe I'm trying to (as we say in Australia "pull a swifty" over them? (i.e. mislead/lie to them).

Eurorail/interrail etc passes use a different bar code to UK tickets, so will not work on UK ticket barriers. Just show them to a staff member or push the Help Point button if no staff and someone will let you through. My 'patch' is far from what I'd call tourist areas for the most part, and we still see lots of euro/interrail passes so you'll have no problems.

On topic I find XC turbo routes don't check much, but intercity routes do. Same with a few TOCs I use regularly, I assume easier to do with fewer stops, but it does frustrate me. I'd like all trains to have door counters fitted to get a better overall picture, I think it'd surprise management on some areas, but not the staff working these lines!

 

[L401CJF]

Apologies for asking basic questions, but I'm shortly visiting the UK. Haven't been to your nations for a while.

From the chat above, it seems conductors/guards have a handheld device for scanning tickets, and paper tickets may also be in use.

If staff sell tickets on board, are they printed from the handheld, or do they write a paper ticket? Do they accept Visa/Mastercard (depending on reception!) or cash? Do they give change? Do they have a laminated sheet or small book from which to calculate fares between station X and station Y?

And the last one for me specificially: I'll travel with a 1st class Eurailpass. The latter's Global Passes have been valid in UK since 2019, but am I going to have endless discussions with staff who haven't seen one and who incorrectly believe I'm trying to (as we say in Australia "pull a swifty" over them? (i.e. mislead/lie to them).

At the operator I work for we carry little handheld smartphone type machines with built in scanners, connected via Bluetooth to a chip and pin/contactless machine and a thermal printer.

The general rule is if there are facilities to buy your ticket before boarding the train then you should buy before you board.

Regarding Interail passes, they will not scan with our machines but we do see a lot of them so most staff should in theory be familiar.

 

[railfan99]

You may well have issues. I have had a 0% success rate with Interrail passes being recognised by scanners in this country, whether on the guard's device or on ticket gates.

Thank you and to others for excellent replies.

I can guarantee I'll have 'issues' as my Eurailpass is a paper (i.e. printed) pass that was mailed to me a month after purchasing (Eurail/Interrail head office has been very busy in Netherlands), not a mobile/smartphone-enabled one. I don't have it in front of me but from memory it lacks any barcode.

My nightmare will be having two minutes to catch a train and coming across a station assistant manning a barrier who's never seen one before. I will carry a printed record of what the Eurail forum members said, but it takes time to read....

However, back to the ticket checking forum or lack thereof!

 

[mike57]

On our local line (Hull - Brid - Scarborough) boarding at my 'home' station of Bempton ticket checks happen on almost all journeys, but there are a lot of small unmanned stations with just card enabled machines, so anyone paying cash will have to pay on the train legitimately. My experience is those who are tech savvy have their ticket on their phone, and most of the rest pay on the train.

As you travel west on TPE from Scarborough checks between Scarborough and York are fairly common, but west of York they seem much more patchy. However between York and Manchester when there are checks ticketless people seem to be in the minority.

 

[DarloRich]

All anecdotal of course but I find I rarely have my ticket checked UNLESS it is on LNER when it is almost always checked. I cant recall the last time an Avanti guard checked my ticket. I rarely use XC but can only recall one check recently. LNWR rarely check. I havent seen a TPE train let alone a guard for months. I find northern generally but not always check.

The south WCML is notorious for a lack of checks, even when trains go from non barriered platforms at Euston (LNR only do boarding checks when an RPI sting is in progress which is very rare indeed). However on my last few journeys I have been checked, and by unfamiliar guards, too (it used to be the same ones who did and most didn't), so I wonder if either they are new or the TOC has decided to crack down on this laziness.

Agreed - they have been a bit more proactive recently but it is still very rare to have a ticket check on this section.

I also got checked on the Marston Vale last week for the first time since 2019. The train, predictably, ran late as a result - I don't understand why they don't add 5 minutes to the timetables in December to resolve that. It isn't like it interacts with much, having dedicated platforms at both ends.

I think the Vale works on sight. The guards know the regulars

 

[Watershed]

All anecdotal of course but I find I rarely have my ticket checked UNLESS it is on LNER when it is almost always checked. I cant recall the last time an Avanti guard checked my ticket. I rarely use XC but can only recall one check recently. LNWR rarely check. I havent seen a TPE train let alone a guard for months. I find northern generally but not always check.

Avanti generally don't check heading north out of London, except in Standard Premium & First (to flog upgrades). Heading south they tend to check after the last major stop before London (e.g. Rugby/Coventry/Stoke/Crewe/Stafford).

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Passengers can still board at an ungated station and change trains somewhere else onto an IET. I also wouldn’t call the Hanborough-Worcester; Kemble-Stonehouse and Pewsey-Tiverton Parkway sections of the network ‘extremities’. Even where gates are installed, they are often open e.g Bath and Bristol Parkway… Plus Paddington has three ungated platforms commonly used for mainline services.

Tickets are usually checked on Cotswold Line trains heading into Oxford, even though Oxford itself is barriered.

The real fare evasion problem on the Cotswold Line is Evesham-Worcester and Malvern-Worcester. Ideally Foregate Street would be barriered, and there were plans for this in 2018/19, but things seem to have gone very quiet since.

Worcester Foregate Street developments consultation

West Midlands Railway is asking passengers for their views on plans for a ticket barrier line and other alterations in the street level concourse area. At the station on Friday afternoon, with an opportunity to comment online as well Passengers at Worcester Foregate Street are invited to share...

railforums.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti generally don't check heading north out of London, except in Standard Premium & First (to flog upgrades). Heading south they tend to check after the last major stop before London (e.g. Rugby/Coventry/Stoke/Crewe/Stafford).

That sounds like the principle I've suggested for other TOCs that serve London - only really care about the high value London (and MKC/WFJ) passengers, not really care if someone fare dodges from Preston to Warrington (say) because it's not a lot of money lost and most people probably will pay.

 

[northwichcat]

Except for Intercity Trains, fares in Germany are set by local transport associations. DB are fairly good at onboard ticket checks on Intercity. On other lines, in my experience, the non-DB franchises are better at ticket checks. Most cities rely on random checks (with plain clothes inspectors) on all public transport with hefty fines for travel without a ticket. It's possible the same applies for rural routes too.

My impression of rail travel in Germany is they do things their way and base that on how locals behave.

We seem to be replacing the traditional British way of doing things with a half arsed attempt at the French way of doing things. Eurostar put ticket barriers at St Pancras for departing passengers and then every UK mainline station seemed to copy the idea.

 

[Dai Corner]

My impression of rail travel in Germany is they do things their way and base that on how locals behave.

We seem to be replacing the traditional British way of doing things with a half arsed attempt at the French way of doing things. Eurostar put ticket barriers at St Pancras for departing passengers and then every UK mainline station seemed to copy the idea.

According to this thread BR introduced automatic barriers in the 1980s, long before Eurostar reached St Pancras in 2007.

History of Ticket Barriers

Does anyone know what the history is regarding ticket barriers on the National Rail network? When and where were they first introduced? BR days? In which locations have they been installed and then removed? (Coventry springs to mind as one) Which stations have a rather odd set up due to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[LowLevel]

My impression of rail travel in Germany is they do things their way and base that on how locals behave.

We seem to be replacing the traditional British way of doing things with a half arsed attempt at the French way of doing things. Eurostar put ticket barriers at St Pancras for departing passengers and then every UK mainline station seemed to copy the idea.

I went on a German pay train a couple of years ago - it was a single carriage railcar in the East serving a range of derelict stations that looked like BR in 1982 levels of falling down.

There was a sign on the train door saying if you had boarded at a station without ticket facilities then that is fine, but you must immediately go to the conductor (a perfectly pleasant lady who was stood in the middle of the train) to pay or you'd be subject to significant fines or removal. Everyone I saw boarding either showed her a pass or immediately went over to pay.

 

[northwichcat]

That sounds like the principle I've suggested for other TOCs that serve London - only really care about the high value London (and MKC/WFJ) passengers, not really care if someone fare dodges from Preston to Warrington (say) because it's not a lot of money lost and most people probably will pay.

I haven't used Preston for a while but when I have ticket checks at the station are common. I would guess that a significant number of people making that journey would be railcard holders, so just forcing anyone alighting without a ticket to buy an Anytime Adult ticket is possibly enough to encourage people to buy before boarding.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

BR went back and forth on barriers. In the late 80s "open stations" were in vogue, where barriers were removed to make the experience more welcoming.

 

[NewClee153]

The first to last gateline staffing of Snow Hill has certainly disappeared as well. Smacks of some contract not having been renewed!

Quite, the last 2 Saturdays I’ve visited Snow Hill (this Saturday and a fortnight ago) the barriers were open both times. Pretty grim when the ticket checking in the Snow Hill line is nigh non-existent - at least between Snow Hill and Stourbridge

The Birmingham - Wolverhampton locals are infamously known as a “cheap ride”, apart from Sundays incidentally, where conductors can be seen going up and down the train

 

[northwichcat]

According to this thread BR introduced automatic barriers in the 1980s, long before Eurostar reached St Pancras in 2007.

History of Ticket Barriers

Does anyone know what the history is regarding ticket barriers on the National Rail network? When and where were they first introduced? BR days? In which locations have they been installed and then removed? (Coventry springs to mind as one) Which stations have a rather odd set up due to...

www.railforums.co.uk

The trend of widespread automatic ticket barriers only started in the 00s. I finished university in 2006 and prior to finishing the only places I had seen automatic ticket barriers were for platforms where local trains stopped at Edinburgh and at the Merseyrail stations in Liverpool. In 2006 buying online still meant getting a large airline style ticket, that wouldn't fit in a ticket barrier. At the same time there were still many ticket offices that used the old style machines to issue tickets, while guards issued tickets that were neither standard size or had any code to scan on them. Then I'm sure the old self-service ticket machines (that were still around) issued a different type of ticket again, one without curved corners. So there were at least 5 different ticket types around meaning automated barriers at mainline interchanges would have been a nightmare!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2022 ==

BR went back and forth on barriers. In the late 80s "open stations" were in vogue, where barriers were removed to make the experience more welcoming.

Even in the early 00s when Manchester Piccadilly was being revamped ahead of the Commonwealth Games, the idea was to make it seem more open. They installed glass doors between the platforms and concourse, no booths, gates or automated barriers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The trend of widespread automatic ticket barriers only started in the 00s. I finished university in 2006 and prior to finishing the only places I had seen automatic ticket barriers were for platforms where local trains stopped at Edinburgh and at the Merseyrail stations in Liverpool. In 2006 buying online still meant getting a large airline style ticket, that wouldn't fit in a ticket barrier. At the same time there were still many ticket offices that used the old style machines to issue tickets, while guards issued tickets that were neither standard size or had any code to scan on them. Then I'm sure the old self-service ticket machines (that were still around) issued a different type of ticket again, one without curved corners. So there were at least 5 different ticket types around meaning automated barriers at mainline interchanges would have been a nightmare!

APTIS tickets - the old non-thermal credit card ones - were encoded for magstripe barriers. But yes, they were mostly a Tube thing before the early 2000s. Merseyrail has pretty much* always had manual ticket checks on entry/exit at the central Liverpool stations (pre PFs some but not all booking office staff used to do it at the local stations) but automatic gates were relatively new.

* There was a short period under the execrable MTL where they didn't, and predictably they came back very quickly when the result was that hardly anybody bothered paying.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I know this is heresy on this forum, but I'd much rather drinkers were heading back to Wem from Shrewsbury on the train rather than driving back.

And if we lose a few pennies on fares - let's say 30 people dodging the £5.70 return fare making a grand total of £170-ish every Friday - does it really matter? Attending to one road accident caused by a drunk driver speeding in the dark at, say, Harmer Hill will cost the public purse tens of thousands at least.

100% agree

Look forward to seeing you when we’re both inside the forum wicker man!!

(Joke)

 

[Matt_pool]

I've used the CLC 12 times since last Monday going to/from Liverpool Lime Street.

Number of times a conductor has checked my pass = 1.

And the trains on that line always go into platforms 6 to 10 that have no barriers, although occasionally you do get revenue officers waiting to pounce, but usually during morning rush when most people travelling to work do have a ticket or pass.

I reckon a lot of people get away with not paying; in fact, on Saturday afternoon when I got the train to Lime Street a group of 5 guys got up as we came into the station and I heard one say "it's okay, we're coming into platform 7 so we'll be okay"!

 

[Amnesiac]

Quite, the last 2 Saturdays I’ve visited Snow Hill (this Saturday and a fortnight ago) the barriers were open both times. Pretty grim when the ticket checking in the Snow Hill line is nigh non-existent - at least between Snow Hill and Stourbridge

The Birmingham - Wolverhampton locals are infamously known as a “cheap ride”, apart from Sundays incidentally, where conductors can be seen going up and down the train

There were RPI on the Birmingham - Wolverhampton locals today

 

[Thebaz]

This weekend I was very surprised to go from Euston-Tamworth-Sheffield-Dronfield and then reverse without once being checked. I thought checks were nailed on at Euston these days, but as someone else has said maybe not for LNW services. Do Cross-Country not check? I suppose there is constant churn of passengers on those routes though.

 

[Watershed]

This weekend I was very surprised to go from Euston-Tamworth-Sheffield-Dronfield and then reverse without once being checked. I thought checks were nailed on at Euston these days, but as someone else has said maybe not for LNW services. Do Cross-Country not check? I suppose there is constant churn of passengers on those routes though.

XC checks are very hit and miss. It's possible there had been a check on your train between Birmingham and Tamworth. Failing to check between Euston and Tamworth is inexcusable though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This weekend I was very surprised to go from Euston-Tamworth-Sheffield-Dronfield and then reverse without once being checked. I thought checks were nailed on at Euston these days, but as someone else has said maybe not for LNW services. Do Cross-Country not check? I suppose there is constant churn of passengers on those routes though.

LNR do not do checks at Euston other than the 8-11 gateline and the very occasional RPI sting. They don't even use the 1-3 gateline which is only closed for Avanti services (and then often only for departure, not arrival), rendering it pretty much totally pointless, which may be why the plans to gate 4-7 and 12-15 seem to have ground to a halt. (I don't think 16 was to be gated as I believe that's lost to HS2 construction before too long).

Avanti don't appear to ever do arrival checks at Euston, and again LNR only do it by way of the 8-11 gateline except RPI stings.

London Overground (for completeness) don't seem to do anything themselves at Euston with regard to revenue, they just rely on the 8-11 gateline and LNR's RPIs. Their trains only use 9 and 10, those being the only third rail platforms (though I suppose they could change voltage to reach others).

 

[Kite159]

And those barriers at 8-11 at Euston have a habit of being thrown open due to overcrowding when you get 2/3 trains arriving in a short period (ie an Overground followed by a stopper from Milton Keynes with a fast from Crewe/Birmingham).

Network Rail might have increased the width of the access from the main concourse but the number of gates remain the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And those barriers at 8-11 at Euston have a habit of being thrown open due to overcrowding when you get 2/3 trains arriving in a short period (ie an Overground followed by a stopper from Milton Keynes with a fast from Crewe/Birmingham).

Network Rail might have increased the width of the access from the main concourse but the number of gates remain the same.

To be honest I expect at commuter times (which is when this mostly happens) fare dodging is low anyway. Most are using season tickets, and of those who aren't many are travelling on expenses - why would you fare-dodge on behalf of your employer when you can just claim it back?

During the rare on-board ticket checks you very rarely see one sold, and even then it's only the odd one from the likes of Cheddington where the TVM was probably broken.

On the other hand MKC-Bletchley or Wolverton late at night is very widely known in these parts as "the free train".

 

[dk1]

I have often been travelling pass or for leisure on DOO services when revenue protection board. I am usually surprised that almost everybody usually has a ticket. Even those I have already wrongly been sure in my head wouldn’t have one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have often been travelling pass or for leisure on DOO services when revenue protection board. I am usually surprised that almost everybody usually has a ticket. Even those I have already wrongly been sure in my head wouldn’t have one.

One thing I'd be very interested to see is if the increased prevalence of e-tickets has caused a reduction in fare-dodging, as if you're in a habit of buying on your phone you'll likely do it anyway regardless of whether anyone is there. OK, you could buy one after departure but the scanners now flag this up.