Locomotive names which may be unacceptable these days

[Western 52]

Looking through old lists of locomotive names, some would seem to be less acceptable today than they were when first used. For example, would we use the name Western Invader on a loco or unit now? Which other historic locomotive names may be less acceptable nowadays?

 

[Iskra]

Virgin Invader probably isn't aging too well.

Perhaps surprisingly nowadays but - Union of South Africa was replaced with Merlin at one point on the A4 due to it being controversial previously due to the historic race politics of that nation.

 

[hexagon789]

Perhaps surprisingly nowadays but - Union of South Africa was replaced with Merlin at one point on the A4 due to it being controversial previously due to the historic race politics of that nation.

Osprey not Merlin. Osprey was 4488's originally allocated name but went to 4494 instead. 4486 was Merlin.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2022 ==

Looking through old lists of locomotive names, some would seem to be less acceptable today than they were when first used. For example, would we use the name Western Invader on a loco or unit now? Which other historic locomotive names may be less acceptable nowadays?

Western Invader was named for a battleship.

Gay Crusader has rather different connotations to those of the 1910s, but it was named for a racehorse.

 

[Cowley]

How about the Dean Single - 3063 ‘Duke of York’?

 

[Iskra]

Osprey not Merlin. Osprey was 4488's originally allocated name but went to 4494 instead. 4486 was Merlin.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2022 ==


Western Invader was named for a battleship.

Gay Crusader has rather different connotations to those of the 1910s, but it was named for a racehorse.

Thank you for the correction, I was going off memory from watching a documentary the other night and I'm guessing Merlin also featured, hence my confusion.

Historically, a couple of locomotives with Germanic names were changed during WWI- one, the LNWR Germanic was changed to Belgic in rudimentary fashion and the GWR's Knight of the Black Eagle was changed to Knight of Leige. Additionally some Star Class locomotives names after the leaders of Italy and Japan were renamed in WWII and would still be unacceptable today one feels.

 

[Purple Train]

What about some of the Merchant Navy class's names?

 

[Gloster]

A quick look at Casserley’s book on loco names reveal many names that would be obscure, outdated or odd, but only a few that definitely might cause offence. A3 Call Boy, B1 Bongo and (possibly) A2 Trimbush are the only examples that jump out.

I can’t find any warship, let alone a battleship, called Invader. The RN may have used many gung-ho names, but that would be a bit obvious.

 

[hexagon789]

I can’t find any warship, let alone a battleship, called Invader. The RN may have used many gung-ho names, but that would be a bit obvious.

Perhaps not a battleship, but there was an HMS Invader, so I naturally assumed it was a battleship.

 

[Iskra]

One that depends on your politics or interpretation of history could be 90015 The International Brigades. I remember having the Hornby model of it. Nowadays, the far left are commonly seen as just as bad as the far right, so it’s a bit of a controversial one. Of course, not everyone in the International Brigades was a marxist revolutionary, but certainly some were.

 

[hexagon789]

How about the Dean Single - 3063 ‘Duke of York’?

The later King George V was Duke of York when 3063 was so named.

 

[Cowley]

The later King George V was Duke of York when 3063 was so named.

Indeed. Definitely not a nameplate we’d be likely to see now though.

Actually on another note and dipping a toe into the culture wars slightly, would we even see anything named after Churchill in the modern era?

 

[Ianigsy]

87012 Royal Bank of Scotland springs to mind.

The LBSCR had two Terriers called Brixton and Millwall, which probably had rather different connotations at the time.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Virgin Invader probably isn't aging too well.

I doubt many Virgin prefix names would fly nowadays. Virgin Soldiers and Virgin Dream were 2 I managed to find.

 

[Iskra]

Indeed. Definitely not a nameplate we’d be likely to see now though.

Actually on another note and dipping a toe into the culture wars slightly, would we even see anything named after Churchill in the modern era?

Well, he’s on the £5 note… and I think most reasonable people appreciate that he is just a product of his time rather than anything untowards.

 

[Gloster]

Perhaps not a battleship, but there was an HMS Invader, so I naturally assumed it was a battleship.

The only warship called Invader that I can trace was one of the carriers in Alistair Maclean’s H.M.S.Ulysses. There was a HMS Dark Invader, a 1950s high-speed patrol boat. Anyway, I thought the Westerns just had a series of almost random names, chosen because they sounded impressive.

 

[Trackman]

Here is a thread from old, some to pick up on from there.

Unfortunately-named locomotives?

A recent chance discovery for me (was never in childhood, a systematic "spotter"): there was a Jubilee class 4-6-0, number 45651, which bore the name Shovell. Presumably after the naval hero of some three centuries ago, Admiral Sir Cloudesley Shovell (wonderful name), who came to a sticky end on...

railforums.co.uk

 

[Neptune]

Indeed. Definitely not a nameplate we’d be likely to see now though.

HST power car 43051 was named ‘The Duke and Duchess of York’ around 1987 when it became the first swallow liveried example from memory. It was no doubt de-named when they spilt up a few years later.

Actually on another note and dipping a toe into the culture wars slightly, would we even see anything named after Churchill in the modern era?

Hopefully not. Politicians in general should never have anything named after them as they’re generally divisive characters. Build them a statue in their hometown or whatever.

 

[krus_aragon]

In LNWR days, a 2-2-2 Single, a Bloomer, and then an Experiment class locomotive carried the name 'Vandal'.

Another name unlikely to be resurrected is that of Newton class 942 'Shah of Persia'.

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . . . would we use the name Western Invader on a loco or unit now? Which other historic locomotive names may be less acceptable nowadays?

Similarly, D1004 Western Crusader might raise an eyebrow or two today.

 

[Western 52]

Similarly, D1004 Western Crusader might raise an eyebrow or two today.

Maybe D1054 Western Governor too!

 

[lyndhurst25]

87012 Royal Bank of Scotland springs to mind.

The Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway still has No. 10 Northern Rock. It was built with sponsorship from what was then a regional building society, before it changed into a bank and got into financial difficulties.

 

[eldomtom2]

B1 Bongo

Not sure what's offensive about naming a locomotive after a species of antelope...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How about the Dean Single - 3063 ‘Duke of York’?

There have been many Dukes of York, including the late Queen's father.
Until she was 10 the Queen's title was Princess Elizabeth of York.

New York, and several places in North America with York or Albany in their name, are named after James II who was Duke of York (and Albany in Scotland) before becoming king.
He was also run out of the country in 1688 for being catholic, in the Glorious Revolution.

Oliver Cromwell, effectively this country's first President, is a name some find obnoxious, but others are very keen he is remembered with royal status.

There will be plenty of slave-owners with railway connections.
In fact much of the capital for our early railways (and other sectors of the industrial revolution) came from such sources.
Lancashire's cotton mills, canals and early railways were built partly to serve the plantation trade in America and the Caribbean.

The Duke and Duchess of Sutherland were key players in the 19th century Highland Clearances, as well as being big investors in the early railways, notably the LNWR.
The Duchess' name is on a preserved LMS steam engine (BR 46233), which hauled the Royal Train in North Wales in 2002.
The good and the bad in our history are often intertwined.

 

[341o2]

Not sure what's offensive about naming a locomotive after a species of antelope...

bongos are also drums, while associated with Cuba, it is claimed they originated in Africa, and at school, a fellow pupil objected to being called "bongo man", the stereotype of natives in the jungle

 

[Gloster]

Not sure what's offensive about naming a locomotive after a species of antelope...

And bongo-bongo land was an offensive way of referring to anywhere that somebody coloured might come from, etc.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Dick Hardy, Stratford Shed Master, recalled how he received a b*llocking for rostering 61005 on the 'Day Continental' when some VIPs were travelling, so an offensive name even then.

 

[SargeNpton]

Any of the LNER B17s that were named after football clubs - on the basis that they would likely be vandalised by supporters of other teams on their travels.

 

[eldomtom2]

The Duke and Duchess of Sutherland were key players in the 19th century Highland Clearances, as well as being big investors in the early railways, notably the LNWR.
The Duchess' name is on a preserved LMS steam engine (BR 46233), which hauled the Royal Train in North Wales in 2002.
The good and the bad in our history are often intertwined.

The Duchess' name is not on 46233. The title is, which makes claims about connections to the Clearances more dubious.

bongos are also drums, while associated with Cuba, it is claimed they originated in Africa, and at school, a fellow pupil objected to being called "bongo man", the stereotype of natives in the jungle

The locomotive was definitely named after the antelope, not the drum.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Names don't last.
Many locomotives (eg the LMS Jubilees) had names relating to Empire and Colonial possessions.
Many of these names are now obsolete or even deprecated (eg the Indian ones, or Northern/Southern Rhodesia).
Another awkward area is Ireland, the south of which was which was part of the UK until 1921.
The Republic has renamed many of its places for Irish historiography (eg Kingstown to Dun Laoghaire), as well as all its major stations after independence leaders.

South Africa has had a major renaming of towns and streets into those of indigenous origin, eg Port Elizabeth* is now Gqeberha (Xhosa).
East London in SA is now eMonti, but also goes by the name of Buffalo City after the local river.
Swaziland is now officially eSwatini ("to avoid being confused with Switzerland").
You can see the same thing happening in Australia with the rise of Aborigine culture and the restoration of original names.

* named after the governor's wife, not the monarch

 

[Calthrop]

bongos are also drums, while associated with Cuba, it is claimed they originated in Africa, and at school, a fellow pupil objected to being called "bongo man", the stereotype of natives in the jungle

The locomotive was definitely named after the antelope, not the drum.

Unfortunately perhaps, words / names are emotional "triggers": those who are thus affected, tend not to make allowances for context -- either it doesn't occur to them to do so, or they reckon that offence trumps everything else. Aside from the specific Bongo issue; I gather that not everyone aware of the naming of a number of B1s after species of antelope, considered / considers that, a good naming theme. Some regard a lot of the antelope names as looking / sounding silly: I've seen Pronghorn and Puku cited to suppose that contention. Names from that animal family -- speedy creatures for speedy locomotives -- greatly appeal to me; but then I'm a fan of wildlife, and the sometimes bizarre names which species of wild creature, have -- such stuff is not everyone's cup of tea.