GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[Deepgreen]

First thing they would need to do is create a decent enough power supply for Reigate to Redhill. Hear that it is only capable of powering a 4-car unit at any one time. One of the main blocks on P3 at Reigate (or 12 car platform) is that power supply cannot cope with longer trains. Someone with better technical expertise may be able to explain why.

Yes, I had heard that (and that the Redhill to Gatwick section is somewhat stretched too).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Don't forget that there is a whole run of steel sleepers that will need to be replaced if electrification ever happens, and very basic signalling.

whats basic about it whole route is TCB with colour lights

Indeed, but that would be a relatively small cost. With infill 3rd rail, cost-spiralling is far less of a risk than, for example, the GWML fiasco. Re-signalling would add significantly but the 6 mile sections between Guildford and Reading now are quite startlingly archaic!

i believe its being closed up when Feltham takes over Wokingham SB area.

First thing they would need to do is create a decent enough power supply for Reigate to Redhill. Hear that it is only capable of powering a 4-car unit at any one time. One of the main blocks on P3 at Reigate (or 12 car platform) is that power supply cannot cope with longer trains. Someone with better technical expertise may be able to explain why.

8 coach slam doors ran up there but had to be restricted to 4 car if Redhill substation was offline.

 

[Minstral25]

whats basic about it whole route is TCB with colour lights

8 coach slam doors ran up there but had to be restricted to 4 car if Redhill substation was offline.

Signalling is controlled locally rather than from a ROC signalling centre I believe and is not a very modern system. The long headways are a main cause of delays at the Level Crossing in Reigate

I don't recall 8-car slam doors down there as they would foul the level crossing to turn back, but in any case, power draw from slam door stock would be much less than modern stock with air-con etc

 

[Deepgreen]

whats basic about it whole route is TCB with colour lights

i believe its being closed up when Feltham takes over Wokingham SB area.

8 coach slam doors ran up there but had to be restricted to 4 car if Redhill substation was offline.

Really - what did they do at Reigate, being too long for the platforms?

 

[JonathanH]

Really - what did they do at Reigate, being too long for the platforms?

Push the unit over the crossing to clear the pointwork - reported a number of times on this forum (although I have never personally seen it).

 

[DelW]

They are wary of electrification cost spiralling like the GWR main line, the NDL may be easier for the hops train as less underground cables?

It would surely be illogical to install two isolated lengths of OHLE on a route entirely surrounded by third rail, including the three stretches of the NDL itself which already have third rail installed?

The only sensible ways of eliminating diesel engines are third rail infill (if or when permitted) or third rail + battery (when battery technology is adequate).

 

[Sebastian O]

It would surely be illogical to install two isolated lengths of OHLE on a route entirely surrounded by third rail, including the three stretches of the NDL itself which already have third rail installed?

The only sensible ways of eliminating diesel engines are third rail infill (if or when permitted) or third rail + battery (when battery technology is adequate).

To make a counter argument. What is the cost of third rail infill in the sections, versus just OHLEing the Wokingham to Guildford and Guildford to Shalford down to Redhill/GTW?

You can understand the hesitancy when the present system is sort of OK with 166s, rather than chucking money up the wall for it to be replaced with OHLE in X years time.

 

[DelW]

To make a counter argument. What is the cost of third rail infill in the sections, versus just OHLEing the Wokingham to Guildford and Guildford to Shalford down to Redhill/GTW?

You can understand the hesitancy when the present system is sort of OK with 166s, rather than chucking money up the wall for it to be replaced with OHLE in X years time.

There is no chance of widespread replacement of third rail with OHLE in any foreseeable timescale. The complications and disruption would be far too great, plus electrification needs to eliminate diesel working rather than replacing different electrification.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It would surely be illogical to install two isolated lengths of OHLE on a route entirely surrounded by third rail, including the three stretches of the NDL itself which already have third rail installed?

The section between Shlaford Jcn and Reigate has only one arched structure so could be wired up relatively easily and if its only a few 4 car 769's running they could connect using static converters so they could connect to the local distribution network or even use NRs own 33kV system and not need an expensive grid connection. Aint going to happen of course but nor is 3rd rail.

The only sensible ways of eliminating diesel engines are third rail infill (if or when permitted) or third rail + battery (when battery technology is adequate).

Batteries could get Wokingham to Ash now but Shalford to Reigate would be a push and whilst battery technology has improved its rather plateaued in the last few years so will need fast recharging.

 

[jackot]

Batteries could get Wokingham to Ash now but Shalford to Reigate would be a push and whilst battery technology has improved its rather plateaued in the last few years so will need fast recharging.

Some of the diagrams already have a 10+ minute waiting time at Guildford due to poor diagramming for a 3tph service that never happened. Not useful at all at the moment but could be helpful in the future for rapid recharging if batteries were to be introduced.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Some of the diagrams already have a 10+ minute waiting time at Guildford due to poor diagramming for a 3tph service that never happened. Not useful at all at the moment but could be helpful in the future for rapid recharging if batteries were to be introduced.

You would need to recharge between Shalford Jcn and Reigate i reckon so Dorking Deepdene obvious place but not midway so batteries would ahve to be sized for Deepdene to Shalford section.

 

[zwk500]

You would need to recharge between Shalford Jcn and Reigate i reckon so Dorking Deepdene obvious place but not midway so batteries would ahve to be sized for Deepdene to Shalford section.

From Reading you have: 10Km powered Reading-Wokingham, 20KM dead Wokingham-Ash Jn, 13km Powered Ash Jn - Shalford, 26km dead Shalford-Reigate, 12km Powered to Gatwick. (anybody who wants it in Church of England the conversion factor is to divide it by 1.609344)

Total of 46km off the juice, 35KM powered, with powered turnrounds and a layover in Guildford to Charge. Given the Germany and Japan are running units in service that are capable of 80km on batteries, even a retrofit shouldn't need a top up at Dorking. Especially if some sensible 3rd rail extensions to North Camp and Shalford are included.

 

[jackot]

From Reading you have: 10Km powered Reading-Wokingham, 20KM dead Wokingham-Ash Jn, 13km Powered Ash Jn - Shalford, 26km dead Shalford-Reigate, 12km Powered to Gatwick. (anybody who wants it in Church of England the conversion factor is to divide it by 1.609344)

Total of 46km off the juice, 35KM powered, with powered turnrounds and a layover in Guildford to Charge. Given the Germany and Japan are running units in service that are capable of 80km on batteries, even a retrofit shouldn't need a top up at Dorking. Especially if some sensible 3rd rail extensions to North Camp and Shalford are included.

Thanks for the useful calculations! With how quickly battery technology is developing, 46km unpowered shouldn’t be that difficult to achieve, and as you said other countries are already doing almost double.

The main issue is how long the unit has to charge whilst stationary - as minimal extra power will be needed for lights and a/c when not moving, and also and how quickly the 3rd rail power can recharge the battery while the train is in motion. Whilst the electrification around Reading and Guildford can certainly support the extra draw, I know that Reigate for example can only power a 4-car EMU, so a 4 Car EMU using extra power to recharge the batteries whilst also using the traction motors may be a struggle. It seems the 769s might well have a short life on the North Downs.

 

[zwk500]

I know that Reigate for example can only power a 4-car EMU

I've yet to see this documented. I didn't find it when I was doing a sweep of Conductor Rail index restrictions about 3 years ago, and we never had any talk of power restrictions when we looked at the NDL signalling (although we were only concerned with the unelectrified section, so it may well have not come up).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

From Reading you have: 10Km powered Reading-Wokingham, 20KM dead Wokingham-Ash Jn, 13km Powered Ash Jn - Shalford, 26km dead Shalford-Reigate, 12km Powered to Gatwick. (anybody who wants it in Church of England the conversion factor is to divide it by 1.609344)

Total of 46km off the juice, 35KM powered, with powered turnrounds and a layover in Guildford to Charge. Given the Germany and Japan are running units in service that are capable of 80km on batteries, even a retrofit shouldn't need a top up at Dorking. Especially if some sensible 3rd rail extensions to North Camp and Shalford are included.

Ironically we had scheme to get 3rd rail upto Shalford station in Railtrack days would have had same limitations as Reigate on unit length but Stagecoach was keen to have as a destination. Never got off the ground of course.

The units in Japan im aware of don't do 80Km without intermediate recharge but Stadler certainly have Flirt Akku that could do the distance but they have the loading gauge to find space for the batteries.

 

[AM9]

From Reading you have: 10Km powered Reading-Wokingham, 20KM dead Wokingham-Ash Jn, 13km Powered Ash Jn - Shalford, 26km dead Shalford-Reigate, 12km Powered to Gatwick. (anybody who wants it in Church of England the conversion factor is to divide it by 1.609344)

Total of 46km off the juice, 35KM powered, with powered turnrounds and a layover in Guildford to Charge. Given the Germany and Japan are running units in service that are capable of 80km on batteries, even a retrofit shouldn't need a top up at Dorking. Especially if some sensible 3rd rail extensions to North Camp and Shalford are included.

If batteries were to be recharged en route then each train would need the equivalent of 2.5 times a normal current draw: 1x the train running, 1.3x the recharge* and, say, about 0.2 charging inefficiencies.
* charging 46km usage in 35km would require approximateley 46/35 x normal draw.

 

[Invincible]

If batteries were to be recharged en route then each train would need the equivalent of 2.5 times a normal current draw: 1x the train running, 1.3x the recharge* and, say, about 0.2 charging inefficiencies.
* charging 46km usage in 35km would require approximateley 46/35 x normal draw.

One of the 19 769s was for the West Ealing to Greenford line, GWR, Viva and Kiepe Electric will sometime (later this year?) test a 230 with fast charge batteries on the line. So results may also be used on other lines if it works. Also some recharging will take place with braking.

The Government have set a target for 2050 to go fully green, so diesel will be around for some time.
Any further 769 test runs this week?

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, it wasn't. No 769 has ever been envisaged to work the Greenfords - they won''t fit!

The original plan was 10 x North Downs, 3 x Basingstoke, 1 x Henley, 1 x Bourne End peaks and 1 x Windsor. When the peak Basingstoke came into the plan, it took the place of the Windsor.

19 units for 16 diagrams.

 

[Invincible]

No, it wasn't. No 769 has ever been envisaged to work the Greenfords - they won''t fit!

The original plan was 10 x North Downs, 3 x Basingstoke, 1 x Henley, 1 x Bourne End peaks and 1 x Windsor. When the peak Basingstoke came into the plan, it took the place of the Windsor.

19 units for 16 diagrams.

Thanks was post 428

GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

Wasn't use on the Windsor branch intended, along with Bourne End and Henley branches, and the Basingstoke and Redhill/Gatwick routes? "Plans" made by the DfT and TOCs often aren't grounded in practicality or possibility lol

railforums.co.uk

Quoting Wikipedia, but Wikipedia has been updated.

 

[FenMan]

Any further 769 test runs this week?

Yep, there's a run today. Although timetabled to stop at intermediate stations (to test an actual schedule?) it clearly didn't stop at most of them.

Realtime Trains | 3O10 0915 Reading Traincare Depot to Redhill | 14/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 3O10 0915 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to Redhill on 14/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

And here's the run back.

Realtime Trains | 3V11 1113 Redhill to Reading | 14/09/2022

Real-time train running information for 3V11 1113 departure from Redhill to Reading on 14/09/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[FGW_DID]

Not testing anything, it's a standard schedule for the MWFo runs, just the usual trip with the driver manager.

 

[Greybeard33]

19 units for 16 diagrams.

When Northern first introduced the 769 in May 2021, the plan was for its fleet of 8 units to cover 6 diagrams, with 2 units on exams. But this availability has never been achieved. Today, for example, only 4 out of the 8 units are in service.

I believe Northern now keeps one serviceable 769 on standby to perform a rescue, should one of the in-service units fail and become stranded on an unelectrified line.

 

[craigybagel]

When Northern first introduced the 769 in May 2021, the plan was for its fleet of 8 units to cover 6 diagrams, with 2 units on exams. But this availability has never been achieved. Today, for example, only 4 out of the 8 units are in service.

I believe Northern now keeps one serviceable 769 on standby to perform a rescue, should one of the in-service units fail and become stranded on an unelectrified line.

Similarly TfW were supposed to be taking on 9, but in the end only received 8 - and checking the diagrams, it appears only 5 are actually booked in use each day (though at least all 5 are 769s today).

Given the records at the other TOCs, I'll be amazed if 16 out of 19 is achievable in the real world.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I don't think that 16 out of 19 is now needed anyway.

 

[TurboMan]

No, it wasn't. No 769 has ever been envisaged to work the Greenfords - they won''t fit!

The original plan was 10 x North Downs, 3 x Basingstoke, 1 x Henley, 1 x Bourne End peaks and 1 x Windsor. When the peak Basingstoke came into the plan, it took the place of the Windsor.

19 units for 16 diagrams.

They could probably run to Greenford once the ASDO system is up and running. The bay platform is 83m so one will just fit.

Running to Bourne End will only work if NR lift the restriction on 769s running at MU differential speeds, otherwise it's 10mph all the way!

 

[JN114]

They could probably run to Greenford once the ASDO system is up and running. The bay platform is 83m so one will just fit.

I’m not convinced with appropriate defensive driving there’s sufficient room between the buffer stop and the platform starting signal - stop the correct distance away from the buffers and you’re too close to the right-mounted signal to sight it properly.

We had the same problem during the Waterloo block a few years ago; where by the book Basingstoke Bay is long enough for a 5 car 165. Some extra, 5 car Basingstoke expresses were run, and the first one down there the coupler was over the TPWS grid when correctly stopped an appropriate distance from the stop block.

 

[TurboMan]

I’m not convinced with appropriate defensive driving there’s sufficient room between the buffer stop and the platform starting signal - stop the correct distance away from the buffers and you’re too close to the right-mounted signal to sight it properly.

The signal's a little way off the end of the platform though. I've known worse! Mind you, the buffer stops lights are on a post before you get to the stops, so it depends how much of that 83m is usable without taking out the post.

 

[craigybagel]

They could probably run to Greenford once the ASDO system is up and running. The bay platform is 83m so one will just fit.

Running to Bourne End will only work if NR lift the restriction on 769s running at MU differential speeds, otherwise it's 10mph all the way!

Greenford would require training Paddington drivers, and AFAIK there are no plans to do so.

 

[JonathanH]

Greenford would require training Paddington drivers, and AFAIK there are no plans to do so.

...and route clearance east of Maidenhead which there were also reported to be no plans to do.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Are the right answers. Stopping in the bay at Greenford in the right place and still getting the signal sighting is also an issue for 4 x 20m. It looks OK but it isn't.

The differential for the Bourne End was known about and was supposed to be sorted by now.