GBRf Class 99 - 30 locomotives now ordered

[Nottingham59]

so an isolated length of electrification for a few miles of gradient would be pretty expensive to implement.

I don't think anyone is advocating isolated electrificaiton schemes for freight (though the use of Battery power for passenger trains will require isolated islands of electrification eventually).

electrification on to Hazel Grove would happen in due course.

I would hope so. And of course the availability of bi-mode locomotives like the Class 99 will add to the business case to do just this ....

the Felixstowe branch (a freight mainline really, with over 70 freights per day) and the missing 'link lines' around London and other places have to be the priority for electrification.

.... whereas the use of bi-modes like the Class 99 will weaken the business case for electrifying missing links.

 

[Roast Veg]

.... whereas the use of bi-modes like the Class 99 will weaken the business case for electrifying missing links.

I'm not sure if this is true. The operational complexity of frequent mode changes mean that the cost saving of infill is very easy to account for.

 

[Peter Sarf]

.... whereas the use of bi-modes like the Class 99 will weaken the business case for electrifying missing links.

I would hope that the use of Class 99 would justify the addition of electrification to parts of routes that are not yet electrified. Whereas currently the whole route has to be completely electrified or not bother at all.

A long route like Felixstowe to the midlands might gain electrification in parts leaving the flatter less busy parts as diesel for the time being. Certainly Felixstowe to Ipswich must be worth electrifying whereas the next part of the route onwards towards Ely might not be such an urgent case (I am assuming that part is flat and not too busy ?).

 

[Trainbike46]

I would hope that the use of Class 99 would justify the addition of electrification to parts of routes that are not yet electrified. Whereas currently the whole route has to be completely electrified or not bother at all.

A long route like Felixstowe to the midlands might gain electrification in parts leaving the flatter less busy parts as diesel for the time being. Certainly Felixstowe to Ipswich must be worth electrifying whereas the next part of the route onwards towards Ely might not be such an urgent case (I am assuming that part is flat and not too busy ?).

That depends on what you define as not too busy. GA was planning to move ipswich-peterborough (via Ely) to hourly, but wasn't allowed to because it would interfere with freight traffic too much.

Definitely agree though that Felixstowe branch should be electrified as a priority (from a freight perspective), because it would immediately allow electric freight from the london direction.

 

[Nottingham59]

The Class 99 delivers 6MW of power at the wheel. So presumably will draw a bit more from the OHLE. (About as much as an 11-car Pendolino at full power, but not many other EMUs.) Is that 6MW+ within the capability of most GB electrification schemes? Or will the Class 99s frequently have to limit their power draw under the wires?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that 6MW+ within the capability of most GB electrification schemes? Or will the Class 99s frequently have to limit their power draw under the wires?

Yes, most GB 25kV AC electrification, assuming there’s not much else about. Of course the train only draws 6MW when accelerating, or going up a big hill. But conceivably there could be 6 x 6 MW trains all drawing full power (or close to it) in a single traction section north of Lancaster, and that’s a lot of juice.

 

[ABB125]

Yes, most GB 25kV AC electrification, assuming there’s not much else about. Of course the train only draws 6MW when accelerating, or going up a big hill. But conceivably there could be 6 x 6 MW trains all drawing full power (or close to it) in a single traction section north of Lancaster, and that’s a lot of juice.

Is that three trains in either direction going up Shap?

Anyway, they manage fine in Austria so I'm sure we can here too.
(This gives me the opportunity to post this picture from Murzzuschlag at the top of the Semmering pass - 15MW on the front of less than 10 empty wagons!)

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that three trains in either direction going up Shap?

Anyway, they manage fine in Austria so I'm sure we can here too.
(This gives me the opportunity to post this picture from Murzzuschlag at the top of the Semmering pass - 15MW on the front of less than 10 empty wagons!)
View attachment 121055

Shap, or Beattock, each under certain feeding arrangements. In fact it’s quite possible to have 8 or more all simultaneously drawing this type of power under some plausible n-1 (one feeder station off line) feeding arrangements.

Of course we can manage to do it here, it just needs someone to pay for investment.

In domestic terms you don’t buy yourself a twin EV car charge point and subsequently ask your electricity supplier if the cable to your property can take it. And then expect them to pay for an upgrade if it can’t.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Shap, or Beattock, each under certain feeding arrangements. In fact it’s quite possible to have 8 or more all simultaneously drawing this type of power under some plausible n-1 (one feeder station off line) feeding arrangements.

At least on the new feeder stations further south they are stuck in 80MVA transformers so that will cover it but guess it will take HS2 upgrade works to get the Northern end upgraded to ATS. Mind you we tested n-1 in the 80's with flights of double headed 86's on freightliners and were down to 12.5kv on one of the locomotives we had instrumented but the trains kept moving.

Of course we can manage to do it here, it just needs someone to pay for investment.

In domestic terms you don’t buy yourself a twin EV car charge point and subsequently ask your electricity supplier if the cable to your property can take it. And then expect them to pay for an upgrade if it can’t.

They won't although most cables are good for 100A but often fused at 60/80A so they may be able to just change out the supply fuse. Not quite as simple for the traction system!

 

[59CosG95]

At least on the new feeder stations further south they are stuck in 80MVA transformers so that will cover it but guess it will take HS2 upgrade works to get the Northern end upgraded to ATS. Mind you we tested n-1 in the 80's with flights of double headed 86's on freightliners and were down to 12.5kv on one of the locomotives we had instrumented but the trains kept moving.



They won't although most cables are good for 100A but often fused at 60/80A so they may be able to just change out the supply fuse. Not quite as simple for the traction system!

Harker (north of Carlisle) already has the ATs in place - it just needs the ATF wires extended northwards. Meanwhile, north of the border, Elvanfoot substation (Scottish Power, not the rail feeder station) has the kit to feed an ATFS.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Harker (north of Carlisle) already has the ATs in place - it just needs the ATF wires extended northwards. Meanwhile, north of the border, Elvanfoot substation (Scottish Power, not the rail feeder station) has the kit to feed an ATFS.

This seems to be the case with much of WCML where the NG feeders station have been upgraded to 25-025kv at great cost but the lineside equipment and OLE has never been completed. Do we know what sections actually have ATS operational?

 

[59CosG95]

This seems to be the case with much of WCML where the NG feeders station have been upgraded to 25-025kv at great cost but the lineside equipment and OLE has never been completed. Do we know what sections actually have ATS operational?

Bourne End MPATS - Whitmore MPATS via both Weedon Bec & Northampton, Weaver Jn (Frodsham) ATFS - Euxton MPATS, and Carnforth SATS - Great Strickland MPATS.
Both routes to Stone ATS (Colwich via Hixon, and Stafford via Norton Bridge) are also AT fed.

Whitmore to Weaver is waiting on the de-mothballing of Crewe ATFS; Bourne End south to North Wembley MPATS is waiting on a few cables to be run and the de-mothballing of Bushey ATFS.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Bourne End MPATS - Whitmore MPATS via both Weedon Bec & Northampton, Weaver Jn (Frodsham) ATFS - Euxton MPATS, and Carnforth SATS - Great Strickland MPATS.
Both routes to Stone ATS (Colwich via Hixon, and Stafford via Norton Bridge) are also AT fed.

Whitmore to Weaver is waiting on the de-mothballing of Crewe ATFS; Bourne End south to North Wembley MPATS is waiting on a few cables to be run and the de-mothballing of Bushey ATFS.

Thanks for that and surprising that the South end where load must be at its highest they still haven't commissioned it. Was this originally part of WCRM or a later add on?

 

[Bald Rick]

Was this originally part of WCRM or a later add on?

Later add on, now being delivered.

 

[59CosG95]

Thanks for that and surprising that the South end where load must be at its highest they still haven't commissioned it.

ISTR that Carnforth - Gt Strickland was one of the earlier ones to go online to improve the amount of head end power available over Shap.
A Flickr search shows that the Northampton Loop had AT Feeding from about 2006.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

ISTR that Carnforth - Gt Strickland was one of the earlier ones to go online to improve the amount of head end power available over Shap.
A Flickr search shows that the Northampton Loop had AT Feeding from about 2006.

Lots of OLE equipped routes show the present of the additional feeder conductors but aren't actually in use like Shenfield down to Stratford where much installation has been done but never completed.

How much of ECML has been commissioned?

 

[59CosG95]

Lots of OLE equipped routes show the present of the additional feeder conductors but aren't actually in use like Shenfield down to Stratford where much installation has been done but never completed.

How much of ECML has been commissioned?

AFAIK only Welwyn to Hitchin is AT fed, and even then all the feeders are in ground level troughs.

Shenfield to Stratford is being sorted this autumn, allegedly.

 

[Bald Rick]

Shenfield to Stratford is being sorted this autumn, allegedly.

Correct.

 

[yorkie]

Reopened to enable an update to be posted.

(Just a reminder to keep this for updates regarding class 99 locos; any other matters such as infrastructure or speculative posts belong in a different thread please)

 

[Nottingham59]

A news article in June Modern Railways says the Class 99 diesel engine will be a Cummins QSK50 rated at 1800kW (2413hp). ...

... The transmission efficiency works out at about 90%. ...

I noticed an article in Rail Engineer that reports that under diesel the Class 99 will deliver 1600kW at the wheel, which corresponds with what we already know.

The Future role of rail: A strategic freight network - Rail Engineer

Listen to this article In this feature I set out the argument for revitalising rail freight against a background of changing passenger travel patterns after the pandemic. Whilst the end of lockdowns and opening up of the economy has seen increased ridership, the patterns of travel have changed...

www.railengineer.co.uk

Bi-mode locomotives have the flexibility to take power from the wires or diesel fuel. Yet they have limited spaced for an engine due to their electric traction equipment. It is understood that the recently ordered Class 99 bi-mode locomotives will only be able to deliver 1,600kW at the rail.

1600kW should be able to haul a 1000T train up a 1% gradient at 16m/s (36mph), reducing to 14mph for a 2500T load.

Can anyone tell me what the balancing speed on level track would be for a 2500T intermodal being hauled by a 1600kW locomotive?

 

[Class15]

Will the 99s be used on London Gateway freights?
Another ideal candidate for 99 haulage would be Barrington to Willesden, as it runs under the wires all the way between Foxton and Wembley TC.

 

[Snow1964]

Will the 99s be used on London Gateway freights?
Another ideal candidate for 99 haulage would be Barrington to Willesden, as it runs under the wires all the way between Foxton and Wembley TC.

I think they will ultimately spread across a number of routes, but obviously start with routes where virtually all is electrified.

The oldest class 66s are now 25 years old, and at stage some are going to need replacing.

 

[Nottingham59]

Will the 99s be used on London Gateway freights?

I don't know for certain. GBRf, who have ordered the 99s, seem to have around half a dozen freights a day out of Gateway to places like Hams Hall, Birch Coppice, Doncaster, Masborough. Last Thursday these all went on electrified routes, at least as far as Rugby or Peterborough. So I would say it is pretty likely, at least for those routes that are pretty flat once you get beyond the wires.

Other freight movements out of Gateway seem to by Freightliner (around a dozen a day) and DB Cargo (two/day). If the 99s are as competitive as they say on operating costs against 66s, then I would expect GBRf to be bidding strongly for some of these flows from Gateway - to places like Trafford Park and Coatbridge, which are long routes nearly all under the wires.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can anyone tell me what the balancing speed on level track would be for a 2500T intermodal being hauled by a 1600kW locomotive?

There’s no such thing. The maximum payload of an intermodal train is usually 1600t.

Will the 99s be used on London Gateway freights?
Another ideal candidate for 99 haulage would be Barrington to Willesden, as it runs under the wires all the way between Foxton and Wembley TC.

I imagine they’ll be mostly used on intermodals that use any significant stretch of electrified line, which for GBRF is most of them.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think they will ultimately spread across a number of routes, but obviously start with routes where virtually all is electrified.

The oldest class 66s are now 25 years old, and at stage some are going to need replacing.

US railroads have the equivalent power unit running in 100's of 40+ year old locos so they will be able to keep them going as long as environmental legislation permits. Thats said these are a good call from GBRf and lets see if they start the same trend that the 66 did years ago and the other freight operators follow suit.

 

[Nottingham59]

The maximum payload of an intermodal train is usually 1600t.

OK. So what would be the balancing speed of a fully-loaded full-length 775m intermodal train, hauled by 1600kW locomotive?

 

[Bald Rick]

OK. So what would be the balancing speed of a fully-loaded full-length 775m intermodal train, hauled by 1600kW locomotive?

depends how heavy it is!

(but I’ve not got the mechanics to calculate this anyway)

 

[martin2345uk]

Several of our intermodals are over 2,000 tonnes (I say "our", my previous FOC I mean). Horrid heavy things!

 

[Nottingham59]

Several of our intermodals are over 2,000 tonnes (I say "our", my previous FOC I mean). Horrid heavy things!

That's closer to what I would have been expecting. I know that they're running 775m intermodals out of Southampton now.

Freightliner moves extra long freight trains at Southampton and London

Recently completed infrastructure works at Southampton have enabled Freightliner to run new, 775 metre-long intermodal trains for their client DP World. The rail freight operator…

www.railfreight.com

"The new 775-metre consists are around 250 metres longer than a typical freight train, according to DP World. They say they can haul up to 14 additional containers on each service," "Daily departures serve Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds"

 

[The Planner]

Several of our intermodals are over 2,000 tonnes (I say "our", my previous FOC I mean). Horrid heavy things!

Then they are running as exceptional loads then. Not aware of anything being timed over 1600t trailing. 1800t has only recently started getting running times. Your ex FOC will be getting delay minutes if loss of time is getting noticed.