SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Phil Scott]

Does anyone know if the retained 4-car units will keep their 4585xx numbers, or will they be renumbered 4584xx? Thanks

 

[Snow1964]

They’re horrible and the bogs leak.

They weren’t very well built, when the first ones were delivered 24 years ago. Modified and reconfigured over the years, but still a long way from an outstanding train.

 

[Stigy]

They weren’t very well built, when the first ones were delivered 24 years ago. Modified and reconfigured over the years, but still a long way from an outstanding train.

I recall dropping a pen on once a fair few years ago and it falling on the track through a closed door….

 

[fgwrich]

They're not. 2+2 seating with spacers between the seats (which means you're no bumping shoulders with the person you're sat next to) makes them the best of SWR's suburban units and vastly more comfortable than a Desiro.

So long as you don’t mind a very squishy and often collapsed base. Like a lot of the fleet since SWRs takeover, presentation has somewhat dropped off a cliff (eg, see state of the 450 seats in my post on the EMR 360 thread).

 

[Bessie]

And also a window resembling a fish tank as some have broken seals and the water accumulated is quite impressive!

 

[Invincible]

They weren’t very well built, when the first ones were delivered 24 years ago. Modified and reconfigured over the years, but still a long way from an outstanding train.

The Juniper 458s have been running well on the Waterloo Reading lines and are comfortable and reliable. But did get crowded peak time need internal refurbishment.
SWR were to have replaced them with 701s which have more standing room for peak times, but yet to happen.
SWR were going to dispose of the 458s, but with problems renovating 442s with undocumented very old running gear, so will be renovating the 458s reverting back gearing so the can be Portsmouth expresses. (Ideally SWR should order more new 444s).

So far from earlier posts, the 2 renovated prototype Juniper 458 express units have not left the Widnes works. No reason given why they are taking so long.

 

[444045]

They weren’t very well built, when the first ones were delivered 24 years ago. Modified and reconfigured over the years, but still a long way from an outstanding train.

I remember well when the 458's came into traffic, I was working in the Control at Waterloo and instead of Juniper they were
nicknamed Junkyard units as that was all they were fit for at the time, it was failure after failure even with travelling fitters
on board didnt help, other than moving the units as Ecs to a depot to clear the running lines.
However they got better, I think that was a result that the staff at Wimbledon Park had a large learning curve to get to know
the units and over the past few years have been the best of the fleets running on SWT.

 

[43096]

I remember well when the 458's came into traffic, I was working in the Control at Waterloo and instead of Juniper they were
nicknamed Junkyard units as that was all they were fit for at the time, it was failure after failure even with travelling fitters
on board didnt help, other than moving the units as Ecs to a depot to clear the running lines.

That was the result of Alstom’s chronic inability/unwillingness to support the new fleet.

With the SR type code of 4-JOP, this was said to mean Jump Out and Push!

 

[Goldfish62]

I remember well when the 458's came into traffic, I was working in the Control at Waterloo and instead of Juniper they were
nicknamed Junkyard units as that was all they were fit for at the time, it was failure after failure even with travelling fitters
on board didnt help, other than moving the units as Ecs to a depot to clear the running lines.
However they got better, I think that was a result that the staff at Wimbledon Park had a large learning curve to get to know
the units and over the past few years have been the best of the fleets running on SWR.

Roger Ford's annual fleet reliability survey in Modern Railways indicates that they reverted to being SWT/SWRs most unreliable unit since conversion to five cars.

 

[Invincible]

Thanks for the update. Might have a run into Liverpool tomorrow morning for a look


507 and 517 both back inside at Widnes. Can see the cabs through the open doors but was unable to see which was which.

Any further sightings of the 458s at Widnes?

Anything fitted to the train becomes the property of the ROSCO usually.


First units for projects are usually a long time. First 444/450 around a year, 455 C62 10 months ish 159 C6 over a year. That’s where method statements are written up, measurements taken. Issues might be found that weren’t part of the plan like corrosion. 450 repaint is 2 weeks circa. Changing the gearing is not easy nor is it done at Widnes. They are David Brown gearboxes.

So the first 2 refurbs still continue? At some time they must go to SWR for evaluation?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

And if this fails, what next?....

 

[Goldfish62]

Any further sightings of the 458s at Widnes?

So the first 2 refurbs still continue? At some time they must go to SWR for evaluation?

Reported in Modern Railways that the project is on hold for six months due to the continuing non appearance of the 701s. First pair of conversations are now due to be released in January. They should have been ready last June.

 

[Snow1964]

First units for projects are usually a long time. First 444/450 around a year, 455 C62 10 months ish 159 C6 over a year. That’s where method statements are written up, measurements taken. Issues might be found that weren’t part of the plan like corrosion. 450 repaint is 2 weeks circa. Changing the gearing is not easy nor is it done at Widnes. They are David Brown gearboxes.

The retain and convert to 4car plan was revealed almost 18 months ago (end March 2021)

First units might take a long time, but not even having one done after 18 months (even if it needs a bit of finishing off) is not a good sign, if it is ready in January will be 22 months, and of course still got all the rest to do, so could easily drag on it 2024 by time all done

 

[fgwrich]

Reported in Modern Railways that the project is on hold for six months due to the continuing non appearance of the 701s. First pair of conversations are now due to be released in January. They should have been ready last June.

I can feel the knives being sharpened now, the torches at Newport being warmed up and some recycled JOPs in Skips coming over the horizon…

 

[Goldfish62]

I can feel the knives being sharpened now, the torches at Newport being warmed up and some recycled JOPs in Skips coming over the horizon…

It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

[43096]

I can feel the knives being sharpened now, the torches at Newport being warmed up and some recycled JOPs in Skips coming over the horizon…

And a big bill from Porterbrook for the contract cancellation.

 

[DelW]

The retain and convert to 4car plan was revealed almost 18 months ago (end March 2021)

First units might take a long time, but not even having one done after 18 months (even if it needs a bit of finishing off) is not a good sign, if it is ready in January will be 22 months, and of course still got all the rest to do, so could easily drag on it 2024 by time all done

Par for the course for SWR, most of the improvements they promised in 2017 either took far longer than they were supposed to, or never arrived at all. Desiro refurbs and fleet re-livery, 442s and 701s, now 458s, all severely delayed or abandoned.

They've barely got enough stock to run the present heavily reduced services. Goodness knows what would have happened if Covid hadn't provided them with a ready made excuse to slash the timetable.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And a big bill from Porterbrook for the contract cancellation.

DfT will pick up the bill so not SWRs problem and govt have form for abandoning contracts and just spinning their way out of it.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Does anyone know if the retained 4-car units will keep their 4585xx numbers, or will they be renumbered 4584xx? Thanks

I believe they will go back to being 458/0

 

[XAM2175]

Does anyone know if the retained 4-car units will keep their 4585xx numbers, or will they be renumbered 4584xx? Thanks

I believe they will go back to being 458/0

I'm sure I'd seen a possibly-authoritative source somewhere say 458/4 recently, but annoyingly I can neither remember the details nor find it again.

They're not. 2+2 seating with spacers between the seats (which means you're no bumping shoulders with the person you're sat next to) makes them the best of SWR's suburban units and vastly more comfortable than a Desiro.

Agreed.

However they got better, I think that was a result that the staff at Wimbledon Park had a large learning curve to get to know
the units and over the past few years have been the best of the fleets running on SWT.

Roger Ford's annual fleet reliability survey in Modern Railways indicates that they reverted to being SWT/SWRs most unreliable unit since conversion to five cars.

I had been under the impression that they became significantly more reliable after the conversion, actually. Has that slipped again?

 

[Invincible]

That was the result of Alstom’s chronic inability/unwillingness to support the new fleet.

The Wimbledon depot slowly improved support.
With the large 701 order, when the trains start service, would think it is likely Alstom (Bombardier) will have a good support/spares programme in place for the 701s and refurbished 458s?

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm sure I'd seen a possibly-authoritative source somewhere say 458/4 recently, but annoyingly I can neither remember the details nor find it again.


Agreed.



I had been under the impression that they became significantly more reliable after the conversion, actually. Has that slipped again?

Complete opposite! They were very reliable pre-conversion. They became SWR's most unreliable train after conversion.

 

[XAM2175]

Complete opposite! They were very reliable pre-conversion. They became SWR's most unreliable train after conversion.

Yeah sorry, I just remembered that it was the period between the refresh at Bournemouth and the 458/5 conversion I was actually thinking of

 

[Goldfish62]

Yeah sorry, I just remembered that it was the period between the refresh at Bournemouth and the 458/5 conversion I was actually thinking of

Ah yes. They did have their standard class seats retrimmed and new flooring installed around 2010-11. They were indeed incredibly reliable back then.

 

[gmaguire]

Complete opposite! They were very reliable pre-conversion. They became SWR's most unreliable train after conversion.

What changed to have such an effect on reliability?

 

[Goldfish62]

What changed to have such an effect on reliability?

Adding a fifth coach and ASDO I believe.

 

[Bigfoot]

I recall dropping a pen on once a fair few years ago and it falling on the track through a closed door….

The cab doors have signs on them instructing you to not lean on them incase the doors pop open. That coupled with the ability to see the outside through the questionable door seals.

 

[43096]

Adding a fifth coach and ADSO I believe.

Or to put it another way, Alstom with a helping hand from Wabtec.

 

[fgwrich]

The cab doors have signs on them instructing you to not lean on them incase the doors pop open. That coupled with the ability to see the outside through the questionable door seals.

Ah, so cab door popping open runs in the Alstom family then!

 

[Doomotron]

The cab doors have signs on them instructing you to not lean on them incase the doors pop open. That coupled with the ability to see the outside through the questionable door seals.

To be fair signs like that are common. Electrostars have them on passenger doors.