Help? I've been fined and I'm really worried.

[HahnWest]

Hi,

I'm a seventeen year old girl and in all my education years, Southwest trains were the only possible means to get to school. When I was 11, I left my Southwest Trains monthly ticket at home. (I later found it in the inside pocket of my old coat)
Not knowing I didnt have the ticket on me, I was ambushed by Revenue Protection goons closely followed by the Transport Police. I explained and explained but I ended up with a £20 fine. My mum sent them a letter with the photocopy of the ticket, reciept with the date of purchase. I waited 21 days still no reply and we had no choice but to pay or else have £30 added to the original fine.
Now that I'm seventeen and exactly a week ago I found myself in the longest queue and the train had just arrived. The next one wouldn't have been coming for another 30 minutes so I had no choice but to board it and seek out the guard to explain and pay. However I couldn't find the guard.
When I got off my stop I find the biggest Revenue Protection raid on a station ever. Before I could do anything I was surrounded by three all demanding for my ticket. I explained and offered to pay for my fare but they refused but they didn't listen. "It's a criminal offence and you could be taken to court" one of them said to me and that really really scared me. The Transport police stood around intimidating (did they think I was going to escape!?)
Anyway, they didnt tear me off a slip with a fine. They said I should expect a letter in the next few weeks and I'm really really worried. What can I expect? A court summoning? A £100 fine? or just a £20?

I'm especially worried about the court part since I was fined when I was 11.

Please help I'm really worried.

This is SouthWest Trains by the way.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Which stations were you travelling from and to?

 

[HahnWest]

Which stations were you travelling from and to?

From Ashford to Egham

 

[island]

The first one is rather tiresome, because they allow twice a year for someone to forget their season ticket.

As for the second, it sounds like they will be considering a prosecution. If you were being issued a £20 penalty fare you would have been given a notice on the spot. When you get the letter you may know more. Unfortunately being in a long queue is not considered an excuse for not buying before you travel, as you are expected (rightly or wrongly) to arrive in good time.

I'm not sure why they decided to do that rather than issue a penalty fare though. Especially for a £2.40 fare.

 

[Ferret]

Hi,

I'm a seventeen year old girl and in all my education years, Southwest trains were the only possible means to get to school. When I was 11, I left my Southwest Trains monthly ticket at home. (I later found it in the inside pocket of my old coat)
Not knowing I didnt have the ticket on me, I was ambushed by Revenue Protection goons closely followed by the Transport Police. I explained and explained but I ended up with a £20 fine. My mum sent them a letter with the photocopy of the ticket, reciept with the date of purchase. I waited 21 days still no reply and we had no choice but to pay or else have £30 added to the original fine.
Now that I'm seventeen and exactly a week ago I found myself in the longest queue and the train had just arrived. The next one wouldn't have been coming for another 30 minutes so I had no choice but to board it and seek out the guard to explain and pay. However I couldn't find the guard.
When I got off my stop I find the biggest Revenue Protection raid on a station ever. Before I could do anything I was surrounded by three all demanding for my ticket. I explained and offered to pay for my fare but they refused but they didn't listen. "It's a criminal offence and you could be taken to court" one of them said to me and that really really scared me. The Transport police stood around intimidating (did they think I was going to escape!?)
Anyway, they didnt tear me off a slip with a fine. They said I should expect a letter in the next few weeks and I'm really really worried. What can I expect? A court summoning? A £100 fine? or just a £20?

I'm especially worried about the court part since I was fined when I was 11.

Please help I'm really worried.

This is SouthWest Trains by the way.

Thanks in advance.

They'll be writing to you in due course to get your version of events. I fully expect the RPIs to be wanting to prosecute here, possibly under the railway byelaws, as from your account, I can't see how they can construe evidence of intent to avoid the fare so a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act is a non-starter.

You'll probably be wanting some good news though, so here it is. If it's true there was a massive queue at the ticket office, we can safely assume that your first opportunity to buy a ticket was at the ticket office at your destination. At no point were you actually trying to get a free journey! I'd suggest you get proper legal advice on this one, but were it me in your shoes, I would write back to SWT offering to pay the fare owing. Point out that they did not give you sufficient opportunity to buy a ticket, and had you been given the option, you would've purchased a ticket at your destination. I'm sure Yorkie will be along shortly to outline the nuclear course of action should SWT want to chance their arms on this.

 

[Flamingo]

I would imagine that the one six years ago would be considered "spent" by this stage.

See what the letter says, in the meantime, do a bit of homework about SWT passenger charter "target" queue times, and try to remember the exact time you were at the ticket office, if push comes to shove then CCTV might be able to back up your story. It will all help back up your story if you are going to dispute your ability to pay for your ticket in a reasonable length of time.

 

[Hydro]

Unfortunately being in a long queue is not considered an excuse for not buying before you travel, as you are expected (rightly or wrongly) to arrive in good time.

This seems to be terribly subjective, as my girlfriend has turned up 20 minutes before her train at Canterbury West outside of peak hours to be faced with queues for the TVM's and ticket windows that have left her running for her train and making it by the skin of her teeth. I would certainly say arriving 20 minutes before your train departs is in "good time". Sometimes you just can't factor in how congested some ticket halls can be, and how many staff and TVM's are on.

 

[Tom B]

Unfortunately being in a long queue is not considered an excuse for not buying before you travel, as you are expected (rightly or wrongly) to arrive in good time.

Is there not a requirement for queues to be no longer than 3/5 minutes? How can it be the fault of the passenger if the TOC won't allow them the opportunity to purchase a ticket?

 

[Failed Unit]

This seems to be terribly subjective, as my girlfriend has turned up 20 minutes before her train at Canterbury West outside of peak hours to be faced with queues for the TVM's and ticket windows that have left her running for her train and making it by the skin of her teeth. I would certainly say arriving 20 minutes before your train departs is in "good time". Sometimes you just can't factor in how congested some ticket halls can be, and how many staff and TVM's are on.

It is a little more clear than that, the passengers charters state how long you should wait for and if you are in excess of this they can't complain if you board the train. If it is 30 minutes until your next one it is unreasonable to expect you to wait. In fact you could soon be longer than that if the following train is late or cancelled something you don't know when you let the first one past. At Canterbury East they let people through when it is clear you will be unable to buy a ticket before the train arrives.

 

[Hydro]

It is a little more clear than that, the passengers charters state how long you should wait for and if you are in excess of this they can't complain if you board the train. If it is 30 minutes until your next one it is unreasonable to expect you to wait. In fact you could soon be longer than that if the following train is late or cancelled something you don't know when you let the first one past. At Canterbury East they let people through when it is clear you will be unable to buy a ticket before the train arrives.

I will bear that in mind, and have a looksee at the SET passengers charter.

 

[Dolive22]

The charter says the standard 3/5 minutes, but it also says you must buy before you board.

 

[Flamingo]

It might be enough to muddy the water, though

 

[Dolive22]

I do recall the 3/5 minute rule having more of an effect on this sort of thing than just a vague aspiration.

 

[Failed Unit]

It might be enough to muddy the water, though

The other grey area is what kind of frequency is it acceptable to abandon the wait. If you have 1/2 hour until your next service I would say yes, but a station where the next service is 15 minutes or less away then maybe your should wait. You don't know about the ultimate destination, let say you are connecting to a service which is only hourly or have an AP (starting from a terminal like Kings Cross and you were travelling from Potters Bar), you would hope that the staff on a train would show some discretion if you boarded without a ticket because of a long wait.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I don't wish to sound accusatory but may I ask the OP whether she was able to use the self service machine at Ashford? I should also point out that on the Waterloo-Weybridge/Reading line the chances are that the guard would have been a non-commercial guard who would not be able to issue a ticket anyway. The train may well have been formed of Class 458 stock in which the guard would almost certainly have been in the middle cab and thus out of reach of passengers.

 

[222007]

I love how Revenue Protection get called 'goons' for doing there job. As and RPI (although not for SWT) i find this very frustrating. We are not there to molly coddle passengers we are there to protect our company's revenue. Raids as it was put are not uncommon on our part of the network.

I need to ask a couple of questions though in order to offer the best advice.
*Did they take your details? (name address etc)
*Did the RPI who spoke to you caution you?
*Secondly is there ticket barriers at Ashford (i apologize i dont know that particular station)

 

[swt_passenger]

The first one is rather tiresome, because they allow twice a year for someone to forget their season ticket.

They don't as a right though, and this isn't just on SWT. The National Conditions of Carriage clearly state (in condition 35), that if you cannot present a season or photocard when necessary conditions 2 or 4 apply as normal.

Then afterwards, refunding any penalty fare and/or any tickets purchased in lieu of a forgotten season is discretionary. If they DO use their discretion it is then limited to twice a year.

 

[Goldfish62]

The other Grey are is what kind of frequency is it acceptable to abondon the wait. If you have 1/2 hour until your next service I would say yes, but a station where the next service is 15 minutes or less away then maybe your should wait.

The other question is, when this train would have been a 450, and not crowded during this part of the journey, why was the guard not in the passenger saloon? It would appear that he/she was "hiding" in the cab. On this particular SDO isn't used until Chertsey so there should be no need to be in the cab until after leaving Virginia Water.

 

[Lampshade]

I don't wish to sound accusatory but may I ask the OP whether she was able to use the self service machine at Ashford? I should also point out that on the Waterloo-Weybridge/Reading line the chances are that the guard would have been a non-commercial guard who would not be able to issue a ticket anyway. The train may well have been formed of Class 458 stock in which the guard would almost certainly have been in the middle cab and thus out of reach of passengers.

It would have almost certainly been a 450 or 2x450 as only the Weybridge service (every 30 minutes) calls at both Ashford and Egham; 458s don't call at Ashford. The only alternative would be to board the next service (Windsor & ER) and change at Staines.

Anyway, it should just be a Penalty Fare, revenue protection teams like to frighten people.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Ashford to Egham is 2tph direct and 2tph changing at Staines. Neither station is gated but Egham is busy with students travelling to the local college and is thus a frequent target for blocks.

 

[radamfi]

From the passenger perspective a lengthy queue effectively means suspension of service. If trains are missed due to queueing then Delay Repay/Passengers' Charter should apply as if trains were cancelled.

 

[Pumbaa]

She was clearly let down by SWT and their contravention of their charter as others have pointed out. In the past, issues I've had with my TOC have been upheld when it has been shown that queues at the ticket office in excess of their charter have been responsible.

 

[Ferret]

She was clearly let down by SWT and their contravention of their charter as others have pointed out. In the past, issues I've had with my TOC have been upheld when it has been shown that queues at the ticket office in excess of their charter have been responsible.

The thing is, you only have to get Mr and Mrs Confused at your ticket office who aren't sure what they actually need and require at-length help, and then you have a monumental queue building. Wave goodbye to your charter requirements, through no real fault of your own. Where the problems start is when staff further down the line don't exercise a little common sense. Opportunity to buy is the key for me on board the train - no legitimate opportunity to buy equals full range of tickets, it's that simple.

 

[RJ]

The charter says the standard 3/5 minutes, but it also says you must buy before you board.

That 5 minute aim is not always possible to reach. I once had someone request 378 outboundary Travelcards from me which took over half an hour to print. Often have to do railcards which take around 3 minutes and some things can take time, like Advance tickets, refunds etc. It certainly doesn't mean it's ok to travel without a ticket, especially if there were other points of sale available.

 

[BestWestern]

The other question is, when this train would have been a 450, and not crowded during this part of the journey, why was the guard not in the passenger saloon? It would appear that he/she was "hiding" in the cab. On this particular SDO isn't used until Chertsey so there should be no need to be in the cab until after leaving Virginia Water.

Let's not be too accusing of the Guard! If you don't know where to look it could be suprisingly easy to miss him/her if he/she is jumping on and off at station stops etc, I've had pax insist to me that I haven't been through the train when I bl**dy well walked right past them!

What is the situation regarding prosecuting someone who is 17? That's a juvenile/'youth' issue surely, do the adult prcedures apply?

 

[Dewedin]

The thing is, you only have to get Mr and Mrs Confused at your ticket office who aren't sure what they actually need and require at-length help, and then you have a monumental queue building. Wave goodbye to your charter requirements, through no real fault of your own.

Apart from employing enough TO clerks to deal with situations like this?

 

[EM2]

Apart from employing enough TO clerks to deal with situations like this?

Well, it might be a small station with say two windows that are already both staffed? You will get a long queue with one clerk tied up for half-an-hour, and then you get a *second* complex query...

 

[radamfi]

People with complex queries should be put to one side every couple of minutes while the queue is served.

 

[RPI]

One question, when are you 18? this will have a huge influence on whether they prosecute or not.
Also, any previous Penalty Fares cannot be mentioned in evidence for the prosecution unles there are strings of unpaid PF's as PF's are a civil matter and not criminal.
It worries me slightly that SWT issued you a PF when you were 11 years old, although technically legal I personally draw the line at about 15 years old when issuing unless the person really deserves it!

 

[cuccir]

People with complex queries should be put to one side every couple of minutes while the queue is served.

To be honest, at small stations, it should be accepted as one of those things. Some customers will need 10 minutes or more and though it's extremely frustrating to wait behind them, there's not much that can be done about it.