Help? I've been fined and I'm really worried.

[radamfi]

To be honest, at small stations, it should be accepted as one of those things. Some customers will need 10 minutes or more and though it's extremely frustrating to wait behind them, there's not much that can be done about it.

On the odd occasion that I have been a time consuming customer, I have offered to stand aside to let people behind me get their quick tickets. Other times, I have been told to wait by the clerk to give other people a chance.

Nowadays, I almost never buy anything at the ticket office and only buy tickets available from the TVM, or order online and pick up from the TVM. If I need a remote ticket then I can buy it online from the Southern website and pick up within seconds and I usually have my laptop on me so it is usually not a problem. If I need something that can only be bought from the ticket office, then I won't travel by train, unless I can get the ticket in advance. Missing the train while queueing is not worth it.

Not having remote tickets on TVMs is frankly disgusting. TVMs in Netherlands, Germany etc. enable you to buy any ticket from any ticket machine. In fact, you pay extra to buy tickets at a ticket window in NL.

 

[Greenback]

I would not like to follow the example of the Netherlands in that respect. I encountered problems using their TVM's as my cards were not accepted. I had to either pay the exact money into the machine or use the counter and pay the admittedly quite small surcharge. I had to visit the cash machine to get sufficient cash to pay for the two 49 euro tickets I wanted.

Back to the OP. IANAL but I doubt that a penalty fare incurred six years ago when someone was 11 would be held against them.

 

[island]

Nowadays, I almost never buy anything at the ticket office and only buy tickets available from the TVM, or order online and pick up from the TVM.

I would do this more, but Boundary Zone X tickets are only available at ticket windows. Everything else for me is either Oyster, TVM, or online (with the one recent exception of a permit to travel at a remote station, where the ticket clerk refused my payment of the balance on arrival!)

Not having remote tickets on TVMs is frankly disgusting.

I can kind of agree with where they're coming from on this, because otherwise people are going to do naughty things like travel from Gravesend to London using a ticket from St. John's to London that they bought at Gravesend (feel free to replace Gravesend with an arbitrary ungated country station on your line and New Cross with the last ungated station before London).

In fact, you pay extra to buy tickets at a ticket window in NL.

This is a bloody pain, because their ticket machines (outside of the airports and main stations) only accept Dutch debit cards, Maestro cards, and maybe coins.

 

[Greenback]

This is a bloody pain, because their ticket machines (outside of the airports and main stations) only accept Dutch debit cards, Maestro cards, and maybe coins.

Yes, that's right - I remember now! That's why I couldn't use my cards, it was a right pain!

 

[radamfi]

I admit that Dutch TVMs not accepting notes and foreign cards is a problem for tourists, but the overwhelming majority of Dutch residents do have Dutch debit cards. Sounds harsh but it does mean that they never have to queue to buy tickets. The Dutch don't protect special cases to the extent done in the UK. For example, cash is still allowed on transport in London several years after Oyster introduction, but Amsterdam and Rotterdam banned cash within a couple of years of smartcard introduction.

 

[PaulLothian]

Also, any previous Penalty Fares cannot be mentioned in evidence for the prosecution unles there are strings of unpaid PF's as PF's are a civil matter and not criminal.
It worries me slightly that SWT issued you a PF when you were 11 years old, although technically legal I personally draw the line at about 15 years old when issuing unless the person really deserves it!

I would be concerned if issuing PFs to 11 year olds was routine, although I guess there may be some regular offenders in that age group who should be pulled up for it!

I am not fully up to speed on how English courts deal with these matters (it's rather different here in Scotland), but I gather that unless they want to try to prove you intended to avoid payment, this will remain a civil matter. The burden of proving this in criminal cases is on the prosecution. Useful webpage here - http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/wordpress/?p=421 - other Forum contributors might want to confirm if this is accurate.

There is a basic flaw in the DFT Penalty Fares policy - (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=6) which says:
"4.30 Using discretion. Authorised collectors must be given the discretion not to charge a penalty fare in a particular instance, even where the passenger is liable to pay a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules. Operators must think carefully about the guidelines they give to authorised collectors about how they should use this discretion. We expect authorised collectors to use discretion towards:

...passengers who are travelling from a station where the authorised collector has been told that long ticket office queues have built up, or where fewer ticket windows are open than normal; ..."

It doesn't say how they should be informed of these problems; in the absence of the SWT having a system to notify staff of sudden problems of this type, it might be reasonable to argue that you are in fact giving them information their employer has failed to provide. Worth a try if all else fails...

 

[radamfi]

I can kind of agree with where they're coming from on this, because otherwise people are going to do naughty things like travel from Gravesend to London using a ticket from St. John's to London that they bought at Gravesend (feel free to replace Gravesend with an arbitrary ungated country station on your line and New Cross with the last ungated station before London).

But it is possible to do this online. And if you use the WebTIS interface, you don't have to wait two hours to pick up the ticket. I have bought tickets online then seconds later walked up to the TVM and picked them up. I know they state that you have to wait two hours but I assume that is so you can't take action against the TOC if the ticket doesn't arrive in time. If you use the Southern 'Rainy Day Guarantee' then you have less risk as if the ticket doesn't arrive in time you can get a refund.

So if it is possible to get remote tickets online and pick them up at the station, it is no different to the ticket being available from the TVM in the first place.

 

[RJ]

I would be concerned if issuing PFs to 11 year olds was routine, although I guess there may be some regular offenders in that age group who should be pulled up for it!

Child fares aren't there just for the sake of it. No money is allowed to be taken on the spot however and a parent/guardian name must be provided. Normal discretionary rules apply however. I recall several people being caught without a ticket and PF'd when I was at secondary school.

 

[island]

But it is possible to do this online. And if you use the WebTIS interface, you don't have to wait two hours to pick up the ticket. I have bought tickets online then seconds later walked up to the TVM and picked them up.

Would the TOCs catch onto the number of tickets from St Johns to London being collected out in the country I wonder?

 

[RJ]

I would do this more, but Boundary Zone X tickets are only available at ticket windows. Everything else for me is either Oyster, TVM, or online (with the one recent exception of a permit to travel at a remote station, where the ticket clerk refused my payment of the balance on arrival!)


I can kind of agree with where they're coming from on this, because otherwise people are going to do naughty things like travel from Gravesend to London using a ticket from St. John's to London that they bought at Gravesend (feel free to replace Gravesend with an arbitrary ungated country station on your line and New Cross with the last ungated station before London).

I get people coming to my window asking for extensions from Boundary Zone 6. I ask what they have to get them to Zone 6 and in some cases it's a PAYG Oyster Card, a Zone 1-2 Travelcard or a single to the next station along the line. It's a great idea introduce "remote" purchases from TVMs isn't it? Of course, nobody is going to abuse that are they?

Even the "buy at the other end when full range isn't offered" rule is abused as people who are sent to revenue staff frequently claim that they came from places like Wandsworth Road/Clapham High Street etc. An alarming number of these people have started their journey with a negative Oyster balance or claim that the ticket office was closed. Funnily enough, people who claim to have come from these stations would surely know that there was no ticket office there?

Unfortunately, any leeway at all in the system is exploited and abused by some people who wish not to pay their fare. Generally it's not hard to tell these people from the genuine cases, as those who want to start quoting clauses that suit them are likely to be breaching many more which take precedence.

Would the TOCs catch onto the number of tickets from St Johns to London being collected out in the country I wonder?

They can if they wish and deploy fraud squads to deal with it. "Clever" methods of fare evasion are usually detectable in one way or another.

 

[radamfi]

I get people coming to my window asking for extensions from Boundary Zone 6. I ask what they have to get them to Zone 6 and in some cases it's a PAYG Oyster Card, a Zone 1-2 Travelcard or a single to the next station along the line. It's a great idea introduce "remote" purchases from TVMs isn't it? Of course, nobody is going to abuse that are they?

I don't think it is right for a ticket clerk to ask such questions. They should just be there to sell tickets. They are human TVMs.

In fact, aren't they OBLIGED to sell the ticket you ask for under impartial retailing?

Not being able to get remote tickets at TVMs just means inconvenience for the traveller and more work for ticket staff.

Also, if it isn't right to get remote tickets from TVMs in GB, why is it right in NL or D?

 

[RJ]

I don't think it is right for a ticket clerk to ask such questions. They should just be there to sell tickets. They are human TVMs.

In fact, aren't they OBLIGED to sell the ticket you ask for under impartial retailing?

Not being able to get remote tickets at TVMs just means inconvenience for the traveller and more work for ticket staff.

Also, if it isn't right to get remote tickets from TVMs in GB, why is it right in NL or D?

I can ask what people have as in many instances they could have be Penalty Fared for using what they believe is a valid combination, such as Oyster PAYG on a train with a first stop outside the PAYG zone. To this day not one person has refused to show my what they do have, it's only on here that people seem to think it's an issue.

I am not obliged to sell a ticket where fraud is suspected either so your argument/understanding of a clerk's obligations and roles are fundamentally flawed.

 

[MikeWh]

I don't think it is right for a ticket clerk to ask such questions. They should just be there to sell tickets. They are human TVMs.

In fact, aren't they OBLIGED to sell the ticket you ask for under impartial retailing?

They are, but as a BZn ticket is not valid without an accompanying travelcard, the clerk MUST ask to see that unless they are also supplying the travelcard at the same time.

 

[LexyBoy]

I don't think it is right for a ticket clerk to ask such questions. They should just be there to sell tickets. They are human TVMs.

In fact, aren't they OBLIGED to sell the ticket you ask for under impartial retailing?

Not being able to get remote tickets at TVMs just means inconvenience for the traveller and more work for ticket staff.

Also, if it isn't right to get remote tickets from TVMs in GB, why is it right in NL or D?

We've had this before... yes, they are obliged to sell you the ticket, but it's perfectly reasonable to ask because:
a) The combination or existing ticket held may not be valid as said by RJ, or may require the customer to be advised of restrictions (e.g. train stopping at the split point etc);
b) An excess fare may be more appropriate
c) All sorts of other reasons I can't think of right now.

As regards TVMs, I don't really buy the fraud argument - why do they sell railcard and child tickets? I'd like to see machines which sell all available tickets (including Advance), from any origin station. Instead of just the time printed, it could say "PRINTED AT: 07:57 AT MAIDENHEAD" which would help make it obvious if the journey had been carried out without a ticket for the whole journey.

Of course, barriering suburban stations rather than just the termini would help too...

 

[swt_passenger]

...Instead of just the time printed, it could say "PRINTED AT: 07:57 AT MAIDENHEAD" which would help make it obvious if the journey had been carried out without a ticket for the whole journey.

Isn't the printing location (ie office machine number or TVM number) coded on the ticket anyway, and therefore in principle usable by someone with a decode list?

But you're right, a plain language 'printed at hhmm at <faraway place> on ddmmyy' would get my vote.

 

[Failed Unit]

As regards TVMs, I don't really buy the fraud argument - why do they sell railcard and child tickets? I'd like to see machines which sell all available tickets (including Advance), from any origin station. Instead of just the time printed, it could say "PRINTED AT: 07:57 AT MAIDENHEAD" which would help make it obvious if the journey had been carried out without a ticket for the whole journey.

The thing is with that is people often buy split tickets on-line. So I may have a Finsbury Park - Reading ticket printed at a station in Scotland just because that is where I live. I guess that would look well dodgy!

 

[LexyBoy]

The thing is with that is people often buy split tickets on-line. So I may have a Finsbury Park - Reading ticket printed at a station in Scotland just because that is where I live. I guess that would look well dodgy!

not at all, if you can show a valid ticket for the journey you're undertaking. It would look dodgy if someone were travelling on a train with a ticket for Y to Z printed at X just before that train left X.

 

[Flamingo]

Let's not be too accusing of the Guard! If you don't know where to look it could be suprisingly easy to miss him/her if he/she is jumping on and off at station stops etc, I've had pax insist to me that I haven't been through the train when I bl**dy well walked right past them!

Me too. And I was wearing a HiVis!