SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Goldfish62]

The cab doors have signs on them instructing you to not lean on them incase the doors pop open. That coupled with the ability to see the outside through the questionable door seals.

When another train passes at speed the passenger doors rattle and you can feel a rush of air. I've never come across any other plug doors like this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When another train passes at speed the passenger doors rattle and you can feel a rush of air. I've never come across any other plug doors like this.

Happens on all *Stars.

 

[Goldfish62]

Happens on all *Stars.

They're better than the 458s in this respect in my experience.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Worse on desiros. in particular when 185s passed HSTs at speed the doors would implode off the shock wave from the air being displaced at 225mph. However this also caused the brakes to come on as the train thought the doors had opened in traffic.

 

[Goldfish62]

Worse on desiros. in particular when 185s passed HSTs at speed the doors would implode off the shock wave from the air being displaced at 225mph. However this also caused the brakes to come on as the train thought the doors had opened in traffic.

At the lowly speeds on the SWR network the doors on the Desiros are rock solid in my experience, unlike the those on the 458s.

 

[fgwrich]

At the lowly speeds on the SWR network the doors on the Desiros are rock solid in my experience, unlike the those on the 458s.

Indeed I don’t think I’ve ever felt the doors rattle or wobble on the South Western Desiro fleets! Now, electrostars and Junipers seem to be the worst for it on all the new stock - the doors on the 385s seem to rattle too.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Worse on desiros. in particular when 185s passed HSTs at speed the doors would implode off the shock wave from the air being displaced at 225mph. However this also caused the brakes to come on as the train thought the doors had opened in traffic.

Had that on a 444 through Wallers Ash Tunnel when a Voyager was passing the other way.

 

[Recessio]

Indeed I don’t think I’ve ever felt the doors rattle or wobble on the South Western Desiro fleets! Now, electrostars and Junipers seem to be the worst for it on all the new stock - the doors on the 385s seem to rattle too.

458s in general just seem very rattly and creaky. Combined with the blown glazing seals and loose doors, it's more like traveling on a bus than a train.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

At the lowly speeds on the SWR network the doors on the Desiros are rock solid in my experience, unlike the those on the 458s.

it could well be down to the speeds. i cant imaging there are many locations where 444/450 will pass each other or other high speed train types at anything over 180mph

 

[Goldfish62]

it could well be down to the speeds. i cant imaging there are many locations where 444/450 will pass each other or other high speed train types at anything over 180mph

Whatever, but my original point was that the doors on 458s flap around at much lower passing speeds. You can actually see them move if you're standing beside them.

 

[Bigfoot]

444/450 regularly pass each other both traveling at 100mph (200total) their doors barely rattle.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I remember well when the 458's came into traffic, I was working in the Control at Waterloo and instead of Juniper they were
nicknamed Junkyard units as that was all they were fit for at the time, it was failure after failure even with travelling fitters
on board didnt help, other than moving the units as Ecs to a depot to clear the running lines.
However they got better, I think that was a result that the staff at Wimbledon Park had a large learning curve to get to know
the units and over the past few years have been the best of the fleets running on SWT.

Quite so, your last two lines above. I was there when they first came in as well, and as shiny and gleaming as they looked parked around the back at WD new sidings, they were still a completely new breed that everyone had to get to grips with.

Roger Ford's annual fleet reliability survey in Modern Railways indicates that they reverted to being SWT/SWRs most unreliable unit since conversion to five cars.

And that was not unexpected by those involved with the project. With any such rebuild, a period of (re) learning and getting to grips with the changes made, by both Fleet engineers and train crew, will inevitably see unit performance drop for some while, before it gradually increases again. That is to be expected with any rebuild scenario, whilst those working with the 'new' version get to grips with the new beasts.
When the units did their last round of C exams at Bournemouth in old 4 car 458 format, when the internal floors were lifted (which proved a real headache in some cases), some vehicles did not look good even then, and this was proved the case when they went to Wabtec for the conversion. There was a serious case of tin worm in a good many cars, similar to the 460 cars that had been stored in the open at Stew Lane, which had been subject to serious water ingress due (in part) to certain aspects of the design of the vehicles.
The result of this corrosion alone, was a major delay factor in the re-introduction as 5 car units, despite additional resources (a second team of bodies) being thrown at the project at that point in time. This then delayed the planned reintroduction to service, and the knock-on delays and reworking of the associated stock cascades that the planners and controllers had to deal with at very short notice.
With the best 'will' in the (engineering) world, corrosion repairs only last so long. Once clean steel has been cut in to, our lovely climate will do it's worst, and any subsequent repairs will be shorter lived than the previous repairs, which may have cause for concern in the here and now.....I know-eth not !

 

[Tynwald]

Hopefull they will get sorted at Wdness.175 dont do it if the doors are set corrrctly.

 

[444045]

U.458502 & U.458511 en route 5B39 10+01 Wimbledon Park to Bournemouth Depot (approaching Basingstoke shortly)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

U.458502 & U.458511 en route 5B39 10+01 Wimbledon Park to Bournemouth Depot (approaching Basingstoke shortly)

For a C4/C6 or somethingelse?

 

[444045]

For a C4/C6 or somethingelse?

I'm not entirely sure, happened to see it on RTT then on the mapping system.

 

[pompeyfan]

I thought there was a restriction beyond Southampton that said they couldn’t run as 10 cars? Obviously I’m wrong.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought there was a restriction beyond Southampton that said they couldn’t run as 10 cars? Obviously I’m wrong.

There’ll presumably be the usual power restriction Poole to Weymouth, although the 458 isn’t in the list in the sectional appendix. 450,444, 455, 701 are all normally limited to single units, so it’s odd 458s aren’t listed. Perhaps the SA had been amended when they were expected to have already gone…

 

[Big Jumby 74]

In my past experience the SA, being a NR publication, could struggle (by weight of info required to be validated and input - not a negative reflection of those doing the inputting I hasten to add), to keep ahead of real time events.

 

[WarrenTManager]

For a C4/C6 or somethingelse?

Both for C6

Hopefull they will get sorted at Wdness.175 dont do it if the doors are set corrrctly.

175 have different door set up? Aren't they end vehicle, single leaf?

The doors might be removed for paint I imagine but not overhauled. The OEM of the door system, Faiveley did an overhaul a few years ago at Fratton.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Faiveley did an overhaul a few years ago at Fratton.

Yes, I remember that being spoken of in meetings at the time, but never did get to hear the outcome (or not) of same!

As they were, when brand new.

 

[Dibbo4025]

I thought there was a restriction beyond Southampton that said they couldn’t run as 10 cars? Obviously I’m wrong.

There is a restriction, or was until very recently, not in the sectional appendix but in the statement of compatibility for the class. It's power related though, and with 12 450 and 10 444 running down there and drawing more it's quite likely it was just a simple paperwork fix to remove it, or get occasional dispensations

 

[Invincible]

Reported in Modern Railways that the project is on hold for six months due to the continuing non appearance of the 701s. First pair of conversations are now due to be released in January. They should have been ready last June.

So presumably the 2 458s, (after the 422 problems), have been already checked for any corrosion, loose cab doors, or any other problem, that might affect going back in service on the London - Bournemouth line in 2023 to start releasing 444 and 450s, assuming the 701s will also enter service (to release 455s, 707s and non refurbished 458s)?.

 

[Roger B]

So presumably the 2 458s, (after the 422 problems), have been already checked for any corrosion, loose cab doors, or any other problem, that might affect going back in service on the London - Bournemouth line in 2023 to start releasing 444 and 450s, assuming the 701s will also enter service (to release 455s, 707s and non refurbished 458s)?.

Trying hard to stifle a belly laugh .....

 

[swr444]

So presumably the 2 458s, (after the 422 problems), have been already checked for any corrosion, loose cab doors, or any other problem, that might affect going back in service on the London - Bournemouth line in 2023 to start releasing 444 and 450s, assuming the 701s will also enter service (to release 455s, 707s and non refurbished 458s)?.

they're "supposed" to be used on the London - Portsmouth direct line

 

[Goldfish62]

they're "supposed" to be used on the London - Portsmouth direct line

Indeed, although according to Modern Railways SWR have stated that while they will be principally used on the Portsmouth line they will now be used elsewhere across the mainline network as well.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Indeed, although according to Modern Railways SWR have stated that while they will be principally used on the Portsmouth line they will now be used elsewhere across the mainline network as well.

Are the 458s cleared for travel west of Poole? If so, some may crop up down that way like the occasional 450. Probably not as these cannot pair up with 444s while splitting/coupling at Bournemouth.

I guess 458s may be seen starting/terminating at Bournemouth on Cl 450 diagrams, I'd like to see one idling in Platform 1, the bay platform.

Also some may also work on the Lymington branch.

 

[pompeyfan]

If the 458 conversion does go ahead I would imagine mainline services will be diagrams to cycle the units through Bournemouth depot, in the same way the 442s did. Whilst there’s no reason they couldn’t end up at Lymington or Weymouth (subject to route clearance), I doubt they will.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed, although according to Modern Railways SWR have stated that while they will be principally used on the Portsmouth line they will now be used elsewhere across the mainline network as well.

That’s what was intended with the 442s anyway, IIRC. There were going to be a few mainline runs to rotate them round Bournemouth for maintenance.

 

[Goldfish62]

That’s what was intended with the 442s anyway, IIRC. There were going to be a few mainline runs to rotate them round Bournemouth for maintenance.

The tone of the article suggested they'd be spread further than that.

As for standardisation there are more 458 vehicles than 159s at Salisbury, so not the least standard train on SWR

OK, let's qualify that by saying non-standard as regards the EMU fleet.

Ultimately it will be financial, cost of lease and any upgrades/modifications vs cost of alternative fleets. This rule will apply whilst there is an excess of units, but if need more for a busier timetable then another rule (what is available) becomes the lead parameter in short term

None of that stopped the DfT sending the 456s for scrap prematurely.

Remember that the Class 701 order was based on Windsor and Reading going to 4tph all day, that's 12 10 car units over today's requirements. Those increases are probably never going to happen now and that's before you consider the long term cuts elsewhere on the suburban network.

As it stands there's going to be a huge surplus of 701s which will need deploying somewhere.