November strike action on National Rail suspended - impact on next week's service

[Surreytraveller]

Both sides are playing games to try and sway public opinion

To which the union are doing in a competent manner, and the government less so

 

[Class800]

Both sides are playing games to try and sway public opinion

This lack of flexibility is a known problem, but its going to take quite a long time to fix some of the more fundamental problems. However even the most flexible business would have struggled to change a timetable of over 20,000 trains overnight.

overnight maybe - but with some companies talking about how next week may not be normal, that sounds a little harder to justify

 

[zwk500]

overnight maybe - but with some companies talking about how next week may not be normal, that sounds a little harder to justify

Notice on friday afternoon for Monday is unreasonable to expect change to be processed. Especially given the workload planners have been dealing with since the May18 timetable change.

 

[jfollows]

My initial thought was that it ought to be possible to run a normal service on Monday but the points made in this thread have convinced me that it's an unreasonable expectation and that what we'll get is a compromise which will be made possible by some people working quite hard and unexpectedly anyway.

 

[Surreytraveller]

This is very disappointing. From an outsider perspective it's difficult to understand how any industry works and what the constraints might be. Yet I am aware of how so many businesses can be highly demand responsive such as large consultancies where the targets may change daily and the company and its staffing needs to respond to that. There may be good reasons why the railway can't change timetables with 24 hours notice, but it's a little hard to comprehend

It wasn't 24 hours notice. A lot less than that. Probably about eight hours notice

 

[43066]

Well I am to the former, and can confirm that interpretation is not heavily biased.

I never knew you were a senior RMT negotiator! . I accept you will have more of an insight than most but, from some of our recent exchanges, it’s clear that you don’t believe unions should have any say on employment matters at all, you consider it “ridiculous” they negotiate walking times etc. You’re hardly impartial on these matters, therefore your comments do have to be read in that light.

Whether it’s a tactic or not (note: I’m not definitively saying either way because I don’t know), let’s be honest, many on here will criticise the rail unions whatever happens.

And who the here believes this?

Nobody on here will. Virtually nobody even seems pleased that the strikes have been called off! It’s just another excuse for an anti union pile on…

It's a very clever move I will grant the rail unions, but calling off the strikes hours before they were due to start, and in the full knowledge that the TOCs almost certainly couldn't revive normal service the next day.... Seriously? Now there may have a been a change in government approach, but I seriously doubt that it has happened this afternoon or that there has been a seismic shift in policy.

Well they could have, you know, just continued with the strikes. Something has clearly happened…

In the meantime the punters face at least another couple of days of an even crapper service from what is a pretty crap service, whilst many crews will sit and drink tea all day. In would not want to be on the front line this weekend, because there are going to be some seriously peed off punters. This is what I am complaining about.

It isn’t you that will have to work trains or man gatelines, is it? I wouldn’t worry about it.

They won’t be any more peed off than they already were. They’re getting the service they were told to expect and will have planned for this weekend, and hopefully a few extras. Wednesday they will get a full service. In any case, unless I’m imagining things, you spent months telling us nobody would use the railway any more if strikes happened. By your reckoning, there shouldn’t be any punters to annoy!

 

[306024]

or smarter

Sorry lost me there. Not sure buying them all a new cardigan and slippers will help (Stereo-typical industry joke from the 1970s for younger readers).

Technology continuously moves on, and perhaps there are systems out there that are less clunky to use, but while the industry is structured as it is, stitching the whole lot together to avoid the dreaded ‘planning error’ Control log item will remain a challenge.

 

[LowLevel]

EMR are having a go at reinstating some trains, think they're looking at crewing the Robin Hood line as we speak. Contingency staff have been told not to attend and the jobs are being divided amongst whoever is in work.

 

[brick60000]

This lack of flexibility is a known problem, but its going to take quite a long time to fix some of the more fundamental problems.

And somewhat ironically one of the issues the government wishes to address is inflexibility in the industry.

The RMT calling off action now highlights this….!

(I’m fully aware that there are very justifiable reasons for this inflexibility. Merely saying I can’t help but think this plays in the governments favour once the spin machine starts running)

 

[43066]

EMR are having a go at reinstating some trains, think they're looking at crewing the Robin Hood line as we speak. Contingency staff have been told not to attend and the jobs are being divided amongst whoever is in work.

That’s good. Not much happening at the southern end, but that’s because of an engineering blockade.

 

[306024]

My initial thought was that it ought to be possible to run a normal service on Monday but the points made in this thread have convinced me that it's an unreasonable expectation and that what we'll get is a compromise which will be made possible by some people working quite hard and unexpectedly anyway.

Well thank you for being open minded and listening to the debate. It’s difficult to articulate all the difficulties (if that makes sense) without getting too technical and losing the audience but hopefully some of us have given some insight.

 

[dk1]

Why would the DfT agree to talks on a Friday afternoon, then? Why not at the beginning of the week?

In my experience this has often been the case. Seen many smaller disputes involving free day & overtime bans that ended up being resolved on a Friday afternoon when the sheer scale of cancellations becomes apparent after the roster clerks try to compile the Saturday daily list. This has usually ended up causing major disruption still as even though called off at the eleventh hour, many drivers have made alternative plans or simply don’t feel like working now.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Interesting to note that the CWU and Royal Mail have also declared the same thing yesterday as well. There's obviously something in the water about all this and I very much doubt the "union tactic" angle. This is all I'm going to say on the matter however. This thread comes across a little odd to me at times. Each to their own though...

 

[zwk500]

And somewhat ironically one of the issues the government wishes to address is inflexibility in the industry.

The proposals it was making before I left the industry wouldn't have addressed the structural problems. I don't know if that's changed.

(I’m fully aware that there are very justifiable reasons for this inflexibility. Merely saying I can’t help but think this plays in the governments favour once the spin machine starts running)

The thing with a spin machine is that it's very easy to lose control. It's quite possible that it plays into the unions, or that everybody gets burned.

 

[gazzaa2]

And who the here believes this? It's a very clever move I will grant the rail unions, but calling off the strikes hours before they were due to start, and in the full knowledge that the TOCs almost certainly couldn't revive normal service the next day.... Seriously? Now there may have a been a change in government approach, but I seriously doubt that it has happened this afternoon or that there has been a seismic shift in policy.

In the meantime the punters face at least another couple of days of an even crapper service from what is a pretty crap service, whilst many crews will sit and drink tea all day. In would not want to be on the front line this weekend, because there are going to be some seriously peed off punters. This is what I am complaining about.

I've no issue with strikes if that's the road the union and members want to go down. This is just taking the mick out of the public and a ruse to keep the pay of their members while the public remain inconvenienced.

Interesting to note that the CWU and Royal Mail have also declared the same thing yesterday as well. There's obviously something in the water about all this and I very much doubt the "union tactic" angle. This is all I'm going to say on the matter however. This thread comes across a little odd to me at times. Each to their own though...

Maybe Sunak/new transport minister are taking a different approach. Truss wasn't in long but she believed she was Thatcher reincarnated so she wasn't going to budge an inch with the unions, whereas before that Johnson knew he was leaving post so had no incentive. Schapps was also useless.

 

[Bantamzen]

To which the union are doing in a competent manner, and the government less so

Are you sure about the unions competence? As a punter I am not.

Whether it’s a tactic or not (note: I’m not definitively saying either way because I don’t know), let’s be honest, many on here will criticise the rail unions whatever happens.

I'm sure behind the closed doors of the mess rooms this is being discussed at length.

Nobody on here will. Virtually nobody even seems pleased that the strikes have been called off! It’s just another excuse for an anti union pile on…

Take a look at today's timetables. Then ask yourself why few are pleased. Most punters don't like giving up their hard earned to pay for crew drinking tea all day.

Well they could have, you know, just continued with the strikes. Something has clearly happened…

Maybe so, but that doesn't change the fact that punters face another crappy weekend on the rails.

It isn’t you that will have to work trains or man gatelines, is it? I wouldn’t worry about it.

See the above. Crews get paid today, punters get screwed, again. You may by now have noticed a theme emerging here...

They won’t be any more peed off than they already were. They’re getting the service they were told to expect and will have planned for this weekend, and hopefully a few extras. Wednesday they will get a full service. In any case, unless I’m imagining things, you spent months telling us nobody would use the railway any more if strikes happened. By your reckoning, there shouldn’t be any punters to annoy!

Oh well that's ok then. They will have heard yesterday that the strikes were called off, only to today discover that all the crews will be working but the actual train bits won't. Like I said I wouldn't want to be on the front line today, there will be a lot of angry punters out there.

I know you know my views on this, I have said all along it was a dispute that escalated at the wrong time for the country. We've seen the effect it has caused, chaos heaped upon chaos, and according to some estimates by analysts costing well into 9 figures to the country as a whole. We've also seen the government move a lot closer to more anti-union legislation with a potential bill on minimum service levels in the pipe (something I seem to recall you thought they'd never dare do), and of course the axe is starting to swing on big ticket projects as well as a creeping service reduction in many areas. So forgive me of being under the impression that the action thus far, and it might not be over yet , has not had a positive effect on the rail industry, and more importantly us poor punters have to put up with the s*** that has been served up by it over the last few months.

 

[dk1]

Take a look at today's timetables. Then ask yourself why few are pleased. Most punters don't like giving up their hard earned to pay for crew drinking tea all day.

Ahem… coffee if you please. Might struggle if the station outlets are closed & have to make my own

 

[Bantamzen]

Ahem… coffee if you please. Might struggle if the station outlets are closed & have to make my own

Well at least you have a better taste in hot drinks...

 

[dk1]

Well at least you have a better taste in hot drinks...

I even think I’ve got to work a train too!!

 

[43066]

My initial thought was that it ought to be possible to run a normal service on Monday but the points made in this thread have convinced me that it's an unreasonable expectation and that what we'll get is a compromise which will be made possible by some people working quite hard and unexpectedly anyway.

Refreshing to have an open minded contribution.

Well thank you for being open minded and listening to the debate. It’s difficult to articulate all the difficulties without getting too technical and losing the audience but hopefully some of us have given some insight.

+1.

I'm sure behind the closed doors of the mess rooms this is being discussed at length.

I can assure you what’s being said in messroom (of actual union members who actually work in the industry) is very different to what is spouted on here!

Take a look at today's timetables. Then ask yourself why few are pleased. Most punters don't like giving up their hard earned to pay for crew drinking tea all day.

Whatever their views on strike action they will have planned not to use trains, and will now get a better service than budgeted for.

There you go with another anti traincrew trope. We all sit around drinking tea , when were you last at work at 0400 I wonder, or working two out of every three weekends.

Maybe so, but that doesn't change the fact that punters face another crappy weekend on the rails.

It isn’t about the punters.

See the above. Crews get paid today, punters get screwed, again. You may by now have noticed a theme emerging here...

It isn’t about the punters… In any case you spent months telling us they would all abandon the railway.

They will have heard yesterday that the strikes were called off, only to today discover that all the crews will be working but the actual train bits won't. Like I said I wouldn't want to be on the front line today, there will be a lot of angry punters out there.

That’s strange I’m sitting on a train now. As a paying punter commuting by train to work I’m pretty pleased with the service so far.

In any case it was made clear on news outlets and industry websites that a normal service would not run.

I know you know my views on this, I have said all along it was a dispute that escalated at the wrong time for the country. We've seen the effect it has caused, chaos heaped upon chaos, and according to some estimates by analysts costing well into 9 figures to the country as a whole. We've also seen the government move a lot closer to more anti-union legislation with a potential bill on minimum service levels in the pipe (something I seem to recall you thought they'd never dare do), and of course the axe is starting to swing on big ticket projects as well as a creeping service reduction in many areas. So forgive me of being under the impression that the action thus far, and it might not be over yet , has not had a positive effect on the rail industry, and more importantly us poor punters have to put up with the s*** that has been served up by it over the last few months.

Sorry but the blame for this and costs to the wider economy are squarely on the government, in addition to the enormous damage they’ve done in other areas. Had the government wanted to they could have simply allowed the TOCs to negotiate and agree something similar to Scotrail (likely a 5%ish rise). The reason they didn’t was purely ideological. The current lot, at least initially, seem a little more sensible.

The minimum service legislation that people on here keep salivating over was in the 2019 manifesto. It isn’t a silver bullet - for one thing it won’t prevent overtime being withdrawn which, as we have seen over the last few months, overall causes far more issues than strike days.

As for the rest, oh yes there’s that “swinging axe” analogy that you’ve been trotting out for months. I thought I hadn’t seen it for a while! . You might want to consider the wider picture and the financial hole this country is in: if cut backs in capital expenditure are being made they’re coming anyway, it has precious little to do with strike action.

I even think I’ve got to work a train too!!

Outrageous!

 

[nedchester]

EMR are having a go at reinstating some trains, think they're looking at crewing the Robin Hood line as we speak. Contingency staff have been told not to attend and the jobs are being divided amongst whoever is in work.

And this is what should be happening. TOCs should be issuing VSTP/STP trains on as many lines as possible. But too many are just not bothering.

I do understand the issues regarding planning STP workings and the workload involved as I currently work in STP planning for a large TOC.

 

[geoffk]

As a former bus industry employee (admittedly 50 years ago), I often find the railway ponderously unresponsive. While the announcement to withdraw strike action came too late to affect the planned cancellations today, I would expect some effort to be made to produce a timetable for Monday and normal service on Wednesday. During unplanned disruption the railway usually rises to the challenge and produces a service of sorts.

 

[zwk500]

As a former bus industry employee (admittedly 50 years ago), I often find the railway ponderously unresponsive. While the announcement to withdraw strike action came too late to affect the planned cancellations today, I would expect some effort to be made to produce a timetable for Monday and normal service on Wednesday. During unplanned disruption the railway usually rises to the challenge and produces a service of sorts.

Again, for Monday, who is going to be doing the planning and data processing? Unplanned disruption affects a far smaller amount of the network and usually has a full complement of drivers and trains on duty.

 

[nedchester]

Again, for Monday, who is going to be doing the planning and data processing? Unplanned disruption affects a far smaller amount of the network and usually has a full complement of drivers and trains on duty.

It CAN be done via VSTP and in many cases bulk deletion of plans can occur if they want to.

Those outside of the railway bubble rightly can't understand.

Only this morning my son has texted me to ask me if trains are running between Wigan and Liverpool as he has a friend coming to Liverpool and can see Merseyrail are running.

 

[infobleep]

I'd love to see your reaction if your boss told you late on a Friday afternoon you'd be staying late into the night processing all the changes. Especially if you'd been coming in for the last few weekends to help out on other projects.

I know people who work in IT and if systems go down on a Friday night they have to fix 'em.

Of course, that is known when they take on the job. It's highly unlikely that is in the conditions when someone signs up to be a train planner.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why would the DfT agree to talks on a Friday afternoon, then? Why not at the beginning of the week?

To which the union are doing in a competent manner, and the government less so

The DfT didn’t ‘agree to talks’ on Friday afternoon. The talks are between employers and unions, and the talks have been going on for over 6 months.

For the absolute avoidance of doubt, nothing changed in the last two weeks. The other unions (TSSA and Unite) agreed to suspend the action on Tuesday. It took RMT until Friday afternoon to do the same thing, based on exactly the same proposition. The company must given the unions the same info / proposals at the same time. So why did RMT take three days longer?

but, from some of our recent exchanges, it’s clear that you don’t believe unions should have any say on employment matters at all

If I have given that impression I apologise. I do strongly believe in the role of the unions. But I also strongly believe that, in this case, the unions are playing politics, rather than looking after their members.

Sorry lost me there. Not sure buying them all a new cardigan and slippers will help (Stereo-typical industry joke from the 1970s for younger readers).

It is was an oblique reference to ‘Smart Timetabling’, a subject that came up on here a couple of years ago. ’Smart timetabling’ being a mythical concept that suggests timetable planners are a bit slow, and if only they worked ’smarter’ they could find 50% extra capacity on the WCML, for example. @The Planner will remember

 

[The Planner]

It is was an oblique reference to ‘Smart Timetabling’, a subject that came up on here a couple of years ago. ’Smart timetabling’ being a mythical concept that suggests timetable planners are a bit slow, and if only they worked ’smarter’ they could find 50% extra capacity on the WCML, for example. @The Planner will remember

Ah yes, I must apologise on behalf of all planners for being stuck with dumb timetabling. Not seen our anti HS2 friend from Preston since, not sure they are a member now. I think they cause the same arguments on skyscrapercity.

 

[ComUtoR]

I know people who work in IT and if systems go down on a Friday night they have to fix 'em.

Of course, that is known when they take on the job. It's highly unlikely that is in the conditions when someone signs up to be a train planner.

I know people who work in an office. They only work 9-5 Monday to Friday. If anything goes wrong over the weekend or once they finished work then.....

But they knew that when they signed up for the job

And somewhat ironically one of the issues the government wishes to address is inflexibility in the industry.

And yet, I doubt the will be any kind of new terms and conditions to change it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Whatever their views on strike action they will have planned not to use trains, and will now get a better service than budgeted for.

I must admit the way the suspension was released by the media hasn't helped this, your statement here is absolutely true. Today I had not planned on using the trains because of the strike so I am no worse off, Monday again I was going to work from home, Wednesday I may get a better journey into work then I had planned but with the re-assurance that my last train back isn't only at 1830.

It really depends on what happens next.

The problem is that when the story was released yesterday that the strike was suspended, it wasn't immediately accompanied by the fact it was too late to restore the timetable. I really appreciate the people on this thread explaining some of the less obvious things such as drivers may have worked their hours up already by covering duties that may have resulted in cancelled trains during the week. Or that the unit that is sat doing nothing today may need refueling before it can do a full days work, but the plan was for it to get to the depot on Sunday and its diagram for Sunday would be fine with the amount of fuel it has in it. I hadn't fully appreciated all the cogs in the system, but I do understand they can't just turn the tap on as I was involved in a similar situation with EMR last year when by the afternoon they had managed to run a few "additionals" the day after the strike was called off.

The problem is that because people got the message yesterday afternoon, they may have thought strikes are off I can go shopping / watch football (whatever the use the railway for) as an added bonus this weekend. Sadly front line rail staff will get the fallout from the minority.

I really hope this is the beginning of the end of the dispute. I was hoping that this would have came as soon as Grant Shapp's went, but I guess it takes time for the new direction to filter down. I have read the comments that not much has changed. But Grant was pouring petrol on a fire, so having a less confrontational transport minister may be enough to at least start moving things forward.

 

[306024]

I know people who work in IT and if systems go down on a Friday night they have to fix 'em.

Of course, that is known when they take on the job. It's highly unlikely that is in the conditions when someone signs up to be a train planner.

Highly likely you are expected to do all you can though, and many train planners rise to the challenge. But none of them are able to work 25 hours a day, 8 days a week (and for Monty Python fans pay ‘t Mill Owner for permission to come to work).

It was an oblique reference to ‘Smart Timetabling’, a subject that came up on here a couple of years ago. ’Smart timetabling’ being a mythical concept that suggests timetable planners are a bit slow, and if only they worked ’smarter’ they could find 50% extra capacity on the WCML, for example. @The Planner will remember

Thank you, too busy hanging up my cardigan and missed that.