Voter ID at polling stations: Railcards are no good, so what's the alternative for students?

[Howardh]

Voter ID: ‘It’s Far Worse than Any US State’

Josiah Mortimer reports on fresh voter suppression claims facing the Government – including the impact on young people – ahead of a rushed roll-out of mandatory voter ID for next May's local elections

bylinetimes.com

At the 2023 elections in England, voters will have to show ID or be turned away for the first time, following the passing of the Elections Act this April.

Election officials say they have not had enough time to prepare and are worried that thousands will be turned away at the polling station – triggering potential ballot box conflicts and allegations of unfairness.

Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle, who worked on the legislation at committee stage, told Byline Times that young people would be discriminated against by the policy.

As well as passports and driving licences, the Government will accept:

1. An Older Person’s Bus Pass
2. A Disabled Person’s Bus Pass
3. An Oyster 60+ card
4. a Freedom Pass (66+)
5. Passes funded by the Scottish Government
   1. The National Entitlement Card (over 60s or 16 to 22)
6. Passes funded by the Welsh Government
   1. A 60 and Over Welsh Concessionary Travel Card
   2. A Disabled Person’s Welsh Concessionary Travel Card

1. 1. It begs the question, you are 18/19, entitled to vote, don't have a passport and don't have a driving licence - how can you vote? The suggestion that a railcard might be used with photo on seems to have been dismissed.
      
      The only other alternative is for the government to bring in "free ID" for everyone; however how do you prove your identity in the first place to get that free ID? And if those documents are good enough to get free ID, then why's it not good enough at the polling booth? And is there time to bring in state ID? Is it a back door to compulsory ID??

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only other alternative is for the government to bring in "free ID" for everyone; however how do you prove your identity in the first place to get that free ID? And if those documents are good enough to get free ID, then why's it not good enough at the polling booth?

First of all, there are almost no 18 year olds without a driving licence or passport, as they generally need one or the other to purchase alcoholic beverages, cigarettes and/or vapes. Things are much stricter than when I was a kid. It's even common to get a provisional even if you have no intention to learn to drive, though obviously some are excluded from holding one on medical or criminal grounds.

But if you do want to do a card, the easiest way is to issue "non-driving driving licences" via the DVLA. What mechanism is used for a first driving licence?

 

[DarloRich]

An OAP bus pass

 

[JamesT]

Voter ID: ‘It’s Far Worse than Any US State’

Josiah Mortimer reports on fresh voter suppression claims facing the Government – including the impact on young people – ahead of a rushed roll-out of mandatory voter ID for next May's local elections

bylinetimes.com

1. 1. It begs the question, you are 18/19, entitled to vote, don't have a passport and don't have a driving licence - how can you vote? The suggestion that a railcard might be used with photo on seems to have been dismissed.
      
      The only other alternative is for the government to bring in "free ID" for everyone; however how do you prove your identity in the first place to get that free ID? And if those documents are good enough to get free ID, then why's it not good enough at the polling booth? And is there time to bring in state ID? Is it a back door to compulsory ID??

It's a slightly disingenuous article, as it's missing off one of the items from the government's list of acceptable ID - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/voter-identification-faqs

There will be a wide range of photographic identification which will be acceptable.
These include:
...
Free Voter Cards, provided by local authorities
...
Legislation will also make clear that local authorities must provide a Voter Card free of charge where an elector does not have one of the approved forms of photo identification

 

[Howardh]

First of all, there are almost no 18 year olds without a driving licence or passport, as they generally need one or the other to purchase alcoholic beverages, cigarettes and/or vapes. Things are much stricter than when I was a kid. It's even common to get a provisional even if you have no intention to learn to drive, though obviously some are excluded from holding one on medical or criminal grounds.

But if you do want to do a card, the easiest way is to issue "non-driving driving licences" via the DVLA. What mechanism is used for a first driving licence?

I know about using ID in shops, but I doubt that many would have either, so there must be an alternative; my point being if there is it won't be accepted at the polling booth. As an aside I had a driving licence at 17 and it was paper, no photo, so was useless at trying to get into places at 18. But as you allude to, things were much more lax than!

But again, if you apply for a licence with photo-card, how do you prove it's you?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==

It's a slightly disingenuous article, as it's missing off one of the items from the government's list of acceptable ID - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/voter-identification-faqs

Thanks, I haven't heard of a free "voter card" - will it have a photo on, will it be official ID (ie for domestic flights etc) and what documents are required to prove it's you? Amongst all the waffle it doesn't seem to say HOW you get this free ID!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know about using ID in shops, but I doubt that many would have either, so there must be an alternative

You're wrong. Almost all 18 year olds have one, the other or both. Only those who do not drink wouldn't be interested.

There are the Portman Group proof of age cards, but hardly anyone seems to have those.

But again, if you apply for a licence with photo-card, how do you prove it's you?

That was my question too

For passports it requires someone "of standing in the community" to vouch for you. I've signed a couple as a Group Scout Leader.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==

Thanks, I haven't heard of a free "voter card" - will it have a photo on, will it be official ID (ie for domestic flights etc) and what documents are required to prove it's you? Amongst all the waffle it doesn't seem to say HOW you get this free ID!

ID for domestic flights is not legally required, so that's up to the airline what they accept or if they require anything at all. It's for revenue protection to stop resale of tickets.

 

[Howardh]

You're wrong. Almost all 18 year olds have one, the other or both. Only those who do not drink wouldn't be interested.

There are the Portman Group proof of age cards, but hardly anyone seems to have those.



That was my question too

For passports it requires someone "of standing in the community" to vouch for you. I've signed a couple as a Group Scout Leader.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==



ID for domestic flights is not legally required, so that's up to the airline what they accept or if they require anything at all. It's for revenue protection to stop resale of tickets.

Can't remember exactly, but when I applied for a blue badge for my mother, I think I got the local pharmacist to sign - she knew mum and myself, indeed I was an employee!! It was either that or some other document such as Power of Attourney, but it was sufficient for a very important document.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just fired up a poll on this to see how many of RUK's young adults might have an issue:

Are you a young adult? If so what ID documents do you possess?

In relation to the Voter ID thread I thought I'd do a poll to see how many young people on RUK would have difficulties with a potential voter ID law if it didn't offer the free "voter cards" it seems it will. Please only answer this poll if you are aged between 18 and 21 years of age inclusive...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JamesT]

I know about using ID in shops, but I doubt that many would have either, so there must be an alternative; my point being if there is it won't be accepted at the polling booth. As an aside I had a driving licence at 17 and it was paper, no photo, so was useless at trying to get into places at 18. But as you allude to, things were much more lax than!

But again, if you apply for a licence with photo-card, how do you prove it's you?

https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence has the list of acceptable ID required to get a driving licence. You have to bootstrap from somewhere, once you have one form of official ID it makes it easier to get the others.

Thanks, I haven't heard of a free "voter card" - will it have a photo on, will it be official ID (ie for domestic flights etc) and what documents are required to prove it's you? Amongst all the waffle it doesn't seem to say HOW you get this free ID!

They haven't said exactly how it will work yet. A reasonable suggestion would be to look at the NI Electoral Identity Card, which has been provided for this purpose for the last 20 years.
You could also look at the requirements to get a bus pass, as these are ID documents issued by local authorities which are acceptable for voting, the standard of verification is likely to be similar.

 

[Howardh]

https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence has the list of acceptable ID required to get a driving licence. You have to bootstrap from somewhere, once you have one form of official ID it makes it easier to get the others.



They haven't said exactly how it will work yet. A reasonable suggestion would be to look at the NI Electoral Identity Card, which has been provided for this purpose for the last 20 years.
You could also look at the requirements to get a bus pass, as these are ID documents issued by local authorities which are acceptable for voting, the standard of verification is likely to be similar.

Again it begs the question why isn't the documentation required to get the ID not good enough in the first place to allow you to vote??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Again it begs the question why isn't the documentation required to get the ID not good enough in the first place to allow you to vote??

Because you need to make things as easy as possible for the occasional stewards staffing polling stations. If you are going to require ID it has to be really simple.

 

[JamesT]

Again it begs the question why isn't the documentation required to get the ID not good enough in the first place to allow you to vote??

What is a returning officer supposed to do with someone turning up with their birth certificate and a utility bill?
Having a limited number of decent quality ID that have been issued through a hopefully rigorously verified system makes things much easier when it comes to voting time. Then they just need to check that the ID appears to be legitimate and matches the person presenting it.

 

[Howardh]

https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence has the list of acceptable ID required to get a driving licence. You have to bootstrap from somewhere, once you have one form of official ID it makes it easier to get the others.



They haven't said exactly how it will work yet. A reasonable suggestion would be to look at the NI Electoral Identity Card, which has been provided for this purpose for the last 20 years.
You could also look at the requirements to get a bus pass, as these are ID documents issued by local authorities which are acceptable for voting, the standard of verification is likely to be similar.

So why not use this document at the polling station?

If you’ve reached State Pension age, you can send an original of one of the following in your name:

• recent (within 3 months) bank or building society statement showing your pension payment and National Insurance number
• BR2102, BR2103 or BR5899 letter confirming your eligibility for the State Pension
  

 

[DC1989]

65% of young adults do not hold a driving license (under 21). Passport data by age is hard to access but around 14% of the total population do not hold a passport, I would imagine that mainly young adults would have a higher percentage of not having one

 

[Howardh]

What is a returning officer supposed to do with someone turning up with their birth certificate and a utility bill?

Read it?

 

[ainsworth74]

We could just also not bother with this farce on the basis that the actual instances of voter fraud, certainly at a polling station, are miniscule. There might be more of an argument around postal ballots and proxy votes (I think the Tower Hamlets case was proxy votes and postal ballots being abused?) but Voter ID does the square root of nothing to address any issues with those methods.

 

[NorthOxonian]

65% of young adults do not hold a driving license (under 21). Passport data by age is hard to access but around 14% of the total population do not hold a passport, I would imagine that mainly young adults would have a higher percentage of not having one

Looking at the recent census data, the opposite would seem to be true. Areas with an older population have relatively high proportions of people without passports; areas with younger populations have very few people lacking them. As a rough ballpark figure about 1-5% of students do not hold passports (judging by the figures in different student neighbourhoods across the country) - young people not in university are perhaps less likely to hold them but I suspect nearly all of them do as well.

 

[GusB]

First of all, there are almost no 18 year olds without a driving licence or passport, as they generally need one or the other to purchase alcoholic beverages, cigarettes and/or vapes. Things are much stricter than when I was a kid. It's even common to get a provisional even if you have no intention to learn to drive, though obviously some are excluded from holding one on medical or criminal grounds.

Do you actually have facts and figures to back this up?

 

[Howardh]

We could just also not bother with this farce on the basis that the actual instances of voter fraud, certainly at a polling station, are miniscule. There might be more of an argument around postal ballots and proxy votes (I think the Tower Hamlets case was proxy votes and postal ballots being abused?) but Voter ID does the square root of nothing to address any issues with those methods.

Agree, and agree with postal votes. Deep down the feeling that this is gerrymandering to keep the current party in power by making it more difficult to get them out? Think the government should be more concerned about allowing every vote to count - as in proportional representation. If your current MP has a majority of 20000 then a vote for the other candidates is as useless as a Transpennine timetable.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

This appears to be the list of accepted ID. Some secondary legislation was due to be published by the end of last week (4 November 2022) according to an article in The Guardian on Thursday 3 November.

I took the following from the Wolverhampton Council website, updated on 3 November. Other councils have recent updates too so 'something' has happened in the background to prompt this flurry of activity.

Wolverhampton Council/voter ID

From 4 May 2023 onwards, the Elections Act 2022 requires voters to show photographic identification at polling stations before they are given a ballot paper.

If you don’t already have any of the accepted forms of photographic identification (listed below), you will be able to apply either in person, by post or online, for a Voter Authority Certificate - a free photographic identification document specific for the purposes of voting – and in good time ahead of voter identification first being required in polling stations.

Applications for Voter Authority Certificates are not yet open; a public communications campaign will be run once the application service is live. Please check this page for updates on when the Voter Authority Certificate application process will start and how you can apply.
Acceptable forms of photographic identification will include:

• A passport issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, a British Overseas Territory, an EEA state or a Commonwealth country
• A driving licence issued by the UK, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or an EEA state
• A biometric immigration document
• An identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (a PASS card)
• Ministry of Defence Form 90 (Defence Identity Card)
• A Blue Badge
• A national identity card issued by an EEA state
• An Older Person’s Bus Pass
• A Disabled Person’s Bus Pass
• An Oyster 60+ Card
• A Freedom Pass
• A Scottish National Entitlement Card issued in Scotland
• A 60 and Over Welsh Concessionary Travel Card issued in Wales
• A Disabled Person’s Welsh Concessionary Travel Card issued in Wales
• A Senior SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
• A Registered Blind SmartPass or Blind Person’s SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
• A War Disablement SmartPass or War Disabled SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
• A 60+ SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
• A Half Fare SmartPass issued in Northern Ireland
• An Electoral Identity Card issued in Northern Ireland
• A Voter Authority Certificate or a temporary Voter Authority Certificate

If your photographic identification document has expired it will still be accepted as long as the photograph is still a good likeness of you.

 

[bib]

They haven't said exactly how it will work yet. A reasonable suggestion would be to look at the NI Electoral Identity Card, which has been provided for this purpose for the last 20 years

Didn't realise NI was the only bit of the uk that needed photo ID to vote, guessing they brought it in due to voter impersonation and dead people voting by proxy

 

[Howardh]

Looking at the recent census data, the opposite would seem to be true. Areas with an older population have relatively high proportions of people without passports; areas with younger populations have very few people lacking them. As a rough ballpark figure about 1-5% of students do not hold passports (judging by the figures in different student neighbourhoods across the country) - young people not in university are perhaps less likely to hold them but I suspect nearly all of them do as well.

Those "young people at university" may be foreign students who absolutely will hold a passport, so if we filter them out a much higher % of the remaining (British) students may well not. never ever seen any official stats, and to be frank why would (until now?) anyone need those stats?

 

[DC1989]

Let's put it this way - it's no coincidence that that this is being brought in by the conservatives whose voters are older. And it's no coincidence that things like 60+ bus passes are allowed but young peoples rail cards aren't. It's simply gerrymandering

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Do you actually have facts and figures to back this up?

Some research is available on the government website. Based on a telephone survey. Summary report and data tables downloadable here.

Younger people were more likely than the general population to hold a form of photo ID. Ninety-nine per cent of those aged 18-29 held a form of photo ID, slightly higher than either those aged 30-69 (98%) or 70+ (98%). Additionally, those aged 85+ were less likely to hold photo ID that was recognisable. Nine in ten (91%) did so, compared to well over nine in ten (95-98%) of younger age groups.

NOTE: the question asked appears to have been do you have some form of 'photo ID', not do you have 'specific photo ID from this list'.

 

[Busaholic]

We could just also not bother with this farce on the basis that the actual instances of voter fraud, certainly at a polling station, are miniscule. There might be more of an argument around postal ballots and proxy votes (I think the Tower Hamlets case was proxy votes and postal ballots being abused?) but Voter ID does the square root of nothing to address any issues with those methods.

It mirrors the Republican Party's attempts to suppress the votes of many who they consider (with good reason!) would not be voting for their candidate in so many U.S. states, as the process is under the political control of each individual governor. It is no wonder that Jacob Rees-Mogg was the main cheerleader of the restrictions here, enthusiastic supporter as he is of the MAGA crowd that have hijacked control of the Republicans. The main difference here (for the moment) is that our election officials are not susceptible to political gerrymandering.

It's interesting about the bus pass, because as the legislation was originally set out they wouldn't have been accepted as identification. Commonsense does seem to have been applied here, but I agree with those who say it's probably been done because the Tories think they have all the 'grey' vote- not while I'm alive they won't!

 

[Howardh]

Let's put it this way - it's no coincidence that that this is being brought in by the conservatives whose voters are older. And it's no coincidence that things like 60+ bus passes are allowed but young peoples rail cards aren't. It's simply gerrymandering

Add that the constituency boundaries are due to be reorganised - dunno where we are with that - but I bet that favours the Tories too! If labour got in, and kept voter ID and the boundary changes, they may well think they need way more votes than the Tories to get a majority, so could well look at PR as an alternative, and something that keeps them in power with a coalition if necessary. Would need a referendum though?

 

[stevetay3]

How are bus passes acceptable ID, I hold a disabled persons pass and have done so for twenty years, the photo has never been updated in that time and I now look quite a bit different . How is this going to work will I be refused because I to not look like the bloke on the pass and sent on my way.I am not that bothered as I would not want to vote for any of them at the moment.

 

[yorksrob]

We could just also not bother with this farce on the basis that the actual instances of voter fraud, certainly at a polling station, are miniscule. There might be more of an argument around postal ballots and proxy votes (I think the Tower Hamlets case was proxy votes and postal ballots being abused?) but Voter ID does the square root of nothing to address any issues with those methods.

Indeed. Pure "being seen to be doing something" nonsense.

They're looking for cuts, they should start with this.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

replying to @ainsworth74

We could just also not bother with this farce on the basis that the actual instances of voter fraud, certainly at a polling station, are miniscule. There might be more of an argument around postal ballots and proxy votes (I think the Tower Hamlets case was proxy votes and postal ballots being abused?) but Voter ID does the square root of nothing to address any issues with those methods.

Very few indeed! More cases of irregularities elsewhere eg not putting the correct information on campaign literature.

Most cases related to campaign offences (49% of all reported cases in 2017 and 48% in 2018), for example where a party does not include details about the publisher on election material. This was followed by voting offences (31% of all cases in 2017 and 21% in 2018).

In 2017, one person was convicted for the crime of personation at the polling station. Eight police cautions were given in relation to other offences. In 2018, there were no convictions or cautions for personation. One person was convicted and two accepted a caution for electoral offences other than personation.

Source:
House of Commons Library

 

[MikeWM]

We could just also not bother with this farce on the basis that the actual instances of voter fraud, certainly at a polling station, are miniscule. There might be more of an argument around postal ballots and proxy votes (I think the Tower Hamlets case was proxy votes and postal ballots being abused?) but Voter ID does the square root of nothing to address any issues with those methods.

100% agree.

The rules about postal ballots need significant tightening (in my opinion, unless you are physically unable to get to a polling station, you shouldn't be able to get a postal ballot - having to spend a few minutes once a year or so in order to get to a polling station and back is hardly a major inconvenience).

But, outside historic issues in Northern Ireland, the number of issues of fraud *at the polling station* has always been as close to zero as to not be worth remotely worrying about.