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Voter ID at polling stations: Railcards are no good, so what's the alternative for students?

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Pinza-C55

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    1. It begs the question, you are 18/19, entitled to vote, don't have a passport and don't have a driving licence - how can you vote? The suggestion that a railcard might be used with photo on seems to have been dismissed.

      The only other alternative is for the government to bring in "free ID" for everyone; however how do you prove your identity in the first place to get that free ID? And if those documents are good enough to get free ID, then why's it not good enough at the polling booth? And is there time to bring in state ID? Is it a back door to compulsory ID??

Do the students not have birth certificates nowadays ?
 
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eoff

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The other aspect (not sure if noted above) is that previous applications for indefinite postal voting will no longer be valid, yet more costs on councils to sort that out.
 

GusB

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A lot of people lose them, to be fair, and a reprint doesn't have the same legal status as the original.
A copy from a registry office has exactly the same status as an original. I lost my original certificate and I've had no problems using the replacement. I still have the abbreviated version of my original certificate and that's not accepted in the same way as a full certificate.
 

Bletchleyite

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A copy from a registry office has exactly the same status as an original.

Not in every case. When going for a DBS check in England, a birth certificate issued within 12 months of birth has more value (Group 1) than a copy issued later (Group 2A). Disclosure Scotland may of course have different rules. It doesn't appear to differentiate which format is necessary - indeed I'm not even quite sure which format mine is!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...anced-dbs-check-applications-from-1-july-2021 for full info (it's a bit long to quote in a post).
 

Pinza-C55

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A lot of people lose them, to be fair, and a reprint doesn't have the same legal status as the original.

I'm 63 and still have my birth certificate. I would like to know what the actual figures are for people who have no form of ID as I suspect this entire story is a smokescreen for something else
 

Baxenden Bank

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I'm 63 and still have my birth certificate. I would like to know what the actual figures are for people who have no form of ID as I suspect this entire story is a smokescreen for something else
Details up thread. I suggest starting with the House of Commons Library paper. Discusses the various trials, level of personation, views of various organisations on the various proposals. Numbers depends on what is included as acceptable ID. Minimum was just 3.5 million people excluded, maximum was 25% of the electorate excluded (absolutely passport and photo driving licence only).
 

Busaholic

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There was a pilot scheme of voter ID in 2018 at local elections for five different councils involving compulsory voter ID, and a total of 430 people were turned away. By far the most rejections were in the London Borough of Bromley = 154. That interested me, as an ex-employee of theirs who did a stint as a Poll Clerk once in 1968, before I could vote myself!

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A copy from a registry office has exactly the same status as an original. I lost my original certificate and I've had no problems using the replacement. I still have the abbreviated version of my original certificate and that's not accepted in the same way as a full certificate.
They can take a long time to arrive. I needed a copy urgently earlier this year, applied and paid online and it took five weeks and one day.
 
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Baxenden Bank

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There was a pilot scheme of voter ID in 2018 at local elections for five different councils involving compulsory voter ID, and a total of 430 people were turned away. By far the most rejections were in the London Borough of Bromley = 154. That interested me, as an ex-employee of theirs who did a stint as a Poll Clerk once in 1968, before I could vote myself!
The research around the pilots talks about the number of people turned away and how many subsequently returned with acceptable ID. What I have not seen is how many were dissuaded from attempting to vote at all, as in, I know I don't have ID so won't even bother trying. The more recent (2021) Cabinet Office research (telephone poll of 8,500 individuals) does ask that question but the sample size at that point was only 143. I'm not a statistician but extrapolating an entire electorate from 143 individuals seems risky.
 

Cloud Strife

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A lot of people lose them, to be fair, and a reprint doesn't have the same legal status as the original.

What do you mean? They are certified copies in England or official extracts in Scotland, and they have exactly the same legal power as the one you were handed when registering the birth in the first place.

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They can take a long time to arrive. I needed a copy urgently earlier this year, applied and paid online and it took five weeks and one day.

Crazy. Here in PL, I can get my birth certificate (which was 'transcribed' to the Polish registry based on my Scottish one) in a few minutes. I just need to turn up at any municipal town hall in the country, hand over my ID card, pay 30PLN (about a fiver) and I'll get a copy there and then.
 

Doppelganger

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Crazy. Here in PL, I can get my birth certificate (which was 'transcribed' to the Polish registry based on my Scottish one) in a few minutes. I just need to turn up at any municipal town hall in the country, hand over my ID card, pay 30PLN (about a fiver) and I'll get a copy there and then.

Amazing what having a National ID card achieve isn't it ;)
 

Lloyds siding

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All polling stations have individual booths, though I've not seen curtains for years. I think they did have when I was a little kid and my parents took me with them to vote, though.

Personally I like remote voting, and would rather there was a properly-secure online version than having to go to a polling station. I like my postal vote; it's very convenient.

But if you are going to ban them for most, then I'd want to see polling stations open 24/7 for at least a week, possibly longer. It is wrong to put someone in a position where they have to cancel a prebooked holiday or business trip to vote, and proxies are no good if there's nobody you trust to do it. (I suppose though that you could allow a postal vote only for anyone who can send proof of a trip or of annual leave booked before the date of polling was declared, though). However even then I still think polling stations should be open for at least a full 24 hour period because people work shifts etc and the limited hours at present may not be viable.
When I started in polling stations the booths looked like this
1668025557195.png



Now our council uses these


1668025766825.png
 

Busaholic

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What do you mean? They are certified copies in England or official extracts in Scotland, and they have exactly the same legal power as the one you were handed when registering the birth in the first place.

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Crazy. Here in PL, I can get my birth certificate (which was 'transcribed' to the Polish registry based on my Scottish one) in a few minutes. I just need to turn up at any municipal town hall in the country, hand over my ID card, pay 30PLN (about a fiver) and I'll get a copy there and then.
Indeed, what you are issued with at birth is only a copy in the first place, and you get a further duplicate copy! The original is at the Records Office. The fact that your original issue has information transcribed onto it by pen and ink doesn't detract from that premise. I have my wife's death certificate from earlier this year and eleven copies requested by me, and each has identifying marks in ink from the Registrar.

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When I started in polling stations the booths looked like this
View attachment 123572



Now our council uses these


View attachment 123573
There are quadruple versions as well as the double shown. There are also wheelchair friendly ones supposedly available, but can't say I've seen one locally.
 

Bletchleyite

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What do you mean? They are certified copies in England or official extracts in Scotland, and they have exactly the same legal power as the one you were handed when registering the birth in the first place.

The Disclosure and Barring Service (the only need I've had for it, pretty much, bar that I used to carry it to sort of prove entitlement to child fare when I was 15) treats ones issued within 12 months of birth as different (less valuable - still useful but needing more other checks) from later copies. This is because it doesn't take much to get a copy - I've needed one for DBS purposes for someone else in Scouting, and I already had enough information about them to apply for it myself! (I did ask their permission before doing so though, I seem to recall we did it on a Zoom call with screenshare so I could honestly say they had agreed the declaration).
 

Howardh

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Indeed, what you are issued with at birth is only a copy in the first place, and you get a further duplicate copy! The original is at the Records Office.
I hope it's a long time before I see my death certificate!
 

Lloyds siding

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Indeed, what you are issued with at birth is only a copy in the first place, and you get a further duplicate copy! The original is at the Records Office. The fact that your original issue has information transcribed onto it by pen and ink doesn't detract from that premise. I have my wife's death certificate from earlier this year and eleven copies requested by me, and each has identifying marks in ink from the Registrar.

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There are quadruple versions as well as the double shown. There are also wheelchair friendly ones supposedly available, but can't say I've seen one locally.
The combined booth in the picture is a quadruple one (you just can't see the ones on the other side), and the booth with the lower table in the picture is the wheelchair booth.
 

Doppelganger

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Indeed, what you are issued with at birth is only a copy in the first place, and you get a further duplicate copy! The original is at the Records Office. The fact that your original issue has information transcribed onto it by pen and ink doesn't detract from that premise. I have my wife's death certificate from earlier this year and eleven copies requested by me, and each has identifying marks in ink from the Registrar.
I guess since anyone can request anyone's birth certificate as it's a public record, I can see why one issued within 12 months of a birth might be of greater value.

So the copy aspect does have an impact in relation to when it is issued (I am of course refering specifically to birth certificates in this instance).
 

busestrains

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If they are accepting bus passes it does seem odd that they are not accepting railcards. I suppose bus passes are more secure as the council has to check your details to make sure they are all legitimate. I have never bought a railcard so i am not sure what checks are made but i am guessing that there are no proper checks so someone could give any name and address when buying one.

Why is the requirement to show ID to vote even being introduced? We have managed for so many years without so is it really necessary? Is there really that much fraud going on?
 

Doppelganger

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If they are accepting bus passes it does seem odd that they are not accepting railcards.

The Tories are securing their voter base.

Which demographic has the most bus passes? It is the over 60s and they are more likely to vote conservative, so as much as I detest this, it does make sense.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Why is the requirement to show ID to vote even being introduced? We have managed for so many years without so is it really necessary? Is there really that much fraud going on?
No, there is next to zero being detected, but some then argue that's because we are not looking and it must be happening undetected.

The whole project is just powering ahead despite all the reports, research, evidence as available, suggesting that it is a very expensive sledgehammer to crack a nut. Costs vary, an external (ie off this forum) source quoted £180m every 10 years. Earlier research suggested £20m every general election (2015 figures I think). So £20m to deal with ONE case. Go figure why this idea keeps rolling on, mine is someone with access to the levers of power wants it, badly.
 

Lloyds siding

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No, there is next to zero being detected, but some then argue that's because we are not looking and it must be happening undetected.

The whole project is just powering ahead despite all the reports, research, evidence as available, suggesting that it is a very expensive sledgehammer to crack a nut. Costs vary, an external (ie off this forum) source quoted £180m every 10 years. Earlier research suggested £20m every general election (2015 figures I think). So £20m to deal with ONE case. Go figure why this idea keeps rolling on, mine is someone with access to the levers of power wants it, badly.
It's because it was in the 2019 Conservative manifesto.
 

Baxenden Bank

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It's because it was in the 2019 Conservative manifesto.
Lots of things were, are they all being progressed with such enthusiasm? Other things were in the manifesto but have been dropped. No I don't have a list, I read the papers not clip them all for future reference.
 

Busaholic

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The combined booth in the picture is a quadruple one (you just can't see the ones on the other side), and the booth with the lower table in the picture is the wheelchair booth.
I did wonder about that - I've got to say many of the modern wheelchairs i.e. the self-propelled ones would be unlikely to fit in there. Another approved manufacturer appears to provide a more bespoke one, but doubtless more expensive so finds less favour with the beancounters.

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I hope it's a long time before I see my death certificate!
If you ever do, I should demand a recount. :D
 

AlterEgo

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Is there really that much fraud going on?
Nobody knows, because anyone can vote in the name of a gone away voter, thousands of which exist in every constituency I imagine. I could have voted multiple times in the London Mayoral Elections because I knew Mr A N Other and Ms B N Other went back to Europe when we bought our flat. Yet, they were on the electoral roll, and we received their ballot papers (of course I corrected the electoral roll, but even so!).
 

jfollows

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If they are accepting bus passes it does seem odd that they are not accepting railcards. I suppose bus passes are more secure as the council has to check your details to make sure they are all legitimate. I have never bought a railcard so i am not sure what checks are made but i am guessing that there are no proper checks so someone could give any name and address when buying one.

Why is the requirement to show ID to vote even being introduced? We have managed for so many years without so is it really necessary? Is there really that much fraud going on?
As has been said by Doppelganger and others, it's not really about security, it's about vote suppression and specifically of voters more likely not to vote Conservative - if you look at the other thread which evolved along with the legislation (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/law-change-will-require-voters-to-show-photo-id.214378) you'll see that the House of Lords put a lot of additional kinds of ID into the bill but the House of Commons took them all out again.
Post #398 in the other thread details the additional kinds of ID which included "a National Rail Railcard".
The other thread has lots of discussion, but I and many people believe this is part of a concerted effort to increase the Conservative vote and decrease the non-Conservative vote by the next election. As you say, the fraud "problem" is vastly over-stated as a justification for this. But I think that argument has been made and discussed already.
 
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JamesT

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As has been said by Doppelganger and others, it's not really about security, it's about vote suppression and specifically of voters more likely not to vote Conservative - if you look at the other thread which evolved along with the legislation (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/law-change-will-require-voters-to-show-photo-id.214378) you'll see that the House of Lords put a lot of additional kinds of ID into the bill but the House of Commons took them all out again.
Post #398 in the other thread details the additional kinds of ID which included "a National Rail Railcard".
The other thread has lots of discussion, but I and many people believe this is part of a concerted effort to increase the Conservative vote and decrease the non-Conservative vote by the next election. As you say, the fraud "problem" is vastly over-stated as a justification for this. But I think that argument has been made and discussed already.
If it was solely about vote suppression for party political advantage, why did the independent Electoral Commission recommend the introduction of voter ID?
 
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Typhoon

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First of all, there are almost no 18 year olds without a driving licence or passport, as they generally need one or the other to purchase alcoholic beverages, cigarettes and/or vapes. Things are much stricter than when I was a kid. It's even common to get a provisional even if you have no intention to learn to drive, though obviously some are excluded from holding one on medical or criminal grounds.

Do you actually have facts and figures to back this up?
No facts and figures, I am afraid, just my experience. Apologies for taking time to respond, I wanted to think this through overnight in case I missed a cohort.

Until about 10 years ago I was Course Director and Tutor for HE programmes at an FE college, a post I held for more than a dozen years. Our catchment area was predominantly inner-city Birmingham; the majority of our students were of south or southern Asian descent. In these roles I would almost certainly have known who had applied for a college parking permit, I also gave out application forms for student West Midlands Travelcards, the majority asked for those (and some already had them). I can think of very few women who held a parking permit, none of which were south Asian. I knew they travelled on the bus (or, in some cases, train) because so did I - I saw them or could tell them how to get to places if they asked, I also know that a significant number had to use more than one bus (from the area they lived in). Of those women (of other backgrounds) that held a permit, the majority were classed as mature students and one was disabled. Amongst male students, it was a little less cut and dried, some did have cars (for instance, one worked overnight) but it wouldn't be half (I should add, one gave me a lift once).

This is, of course, one part of the country in one setting. And I was aware of particular parts of the city where 'boy-racers', either in cars or on bikes, could be found (even then it would be foolish to suggest all had a full licence). It could be that access to public transport was a reason for choosing the college. However, through talking to some parents and religious leaders I would be surprised if 'learning to drive' was high on the list of skills they wanted these female students to acquire. They may eventually have needed a passport though.
 

XAM2175

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But if you are going to ban them for most, then I'd want to see polling stations open 24/7 for at least a week, possibly longer. It is wrong to put someone in a position where they have to cancel a prebooked holiday or business trip to vote, and proxies are no good if there's nobody you trust to do it. (I suppose though that you could allow a postal vote only for anyone who can send proof of a trip or of annual leave booked before the date of polling was declared, though). However even then I still think polling stations should be open for at least a full 24 hour period because people work shifts etc and the limited hours at present may not be viable.
I would note that in Australia elections are held on Saturdays, and that early voting at a certain number of electoral offices (circa 500 across the country for the election earlier this year) is available for a fortnight before the actual election day by these criteria:

You can vote early either in person or by post if, on election day, you:
  • are outside the electorate where you are enrolled to vote
  • are more than 8km from a polling place
  • are travelling
  • are unable to leave your workplace to vote
  • are seriously ill, infirm or due to give birth shortly (or caring for someone who is)
  • are a patient in hospital and can't vote at the hospital
  • have religious beliefs that prevent you from attending a polling place
  • are in prison serving a sentence of less than three years or otherwise detained
  • are a silent elector
  • have a reasonable fear for your safety or wellbeing.

I guess since anyone can request anyone's birth certificate as it's a public record, I can see why one issued within 12 months of a birth might be of greater value.
Yes, that's the rationale given - the earlier in life the extract has been obtained the less likely it is that somebody is trying to fraudulently adopt that identity later on.

I have never bought a railcard so i am not sure what checks are made but i am guessing that there are no proper checks so someone could give any name and address when buying one.
Yes, there is effectively no verification for normal Railcards, and even for the restricted-eligibility ones the verification that does take place is fairly basic.
 
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