£2 Price Cap on fares in England - Now extended beyond October 2023

[Deerfold]

How does the £2 price cap currently work on 'through' single fares from outside of West Yorkshire into West Yorkshire

For example if I were to catch the 36 bus from Harrogate to Leeds, in theory I should only be paying £2 once the service hits West Yorkshire but are the systems intelligent enough to work this out yet or would the driver have to work out the boundary stop and essentially issue two tickets?

It's almost certainly cheaper to buy two tickets, but the driver will not work that out for you.
There were a couple of instances where it was cheaper to do that on the 36 before the introduction of the £2 fare within West Yorkshire. I've no idea if any driver will let you do that without getting off and and the bus again. It's unlikely to would for anyone making more than 1 trip a day.

 

[Wolfie]

Of course, this does depend on the Treasury not withdrawing the national funding for the voluntary scheme in the mini-budget next month.

You make a very valid point. Withdrawal of something which has yet to be implemented in most of the country would be an easy savings measure.

 

[Typhoon]

You make a very valid point. Withdrawal of something which has yet to be implemented in most of the country would be an easy savings measure.

...particularly as its withdrawal would probably only affect a minority of voters.

 

[Wolfie]

...particularly as its withdrawal would probably only affect a minority of voters.

Indeed

 

[miklcct]

a minority of voters

A minority of voters?! I don't believe so. Although buses are a poor form of public transport they are still the most dominant mode in the whole of UK (although London, which isn't affected by the policy, may contribute to a significant number).

There have been multiple instances in other countries where public transport fare was the source of riots.

 

[py_megapixel]

A minority of voters?! I don't believe so. Although buses are a poor form of public transport they are still the most dominant mode in the whole of UK (although London, which isn't affected by the policy, may contribute to a significant number).

There have been multiple instances in other countries where public transport fare was the source of riots.

The dominant mode of public transport. Unfortunately the majority of journeys are made by car instead.

 

[johncrossley]

A minority of voters?! I don't believe so. Although buses are a poor form of public transport they are still the most dominant mode in the whole of UK (although London, which isn't affected by the policy, may contribute to a significant number).

According to the graphic on page 2 of

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/906276/national-travel-survey-2019.pdf

In England in 2019, buses represented 4% of distance travelled, compared to 10% for rail and 77% for cars.

When looking at number of trips, bus 5%, rail 2%, car 61%.

 

[Dai Corner]

According to the graphic on page 2 of

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/906276/national-travel-survey-2019.pdf

In England in 2019, buses represented 4% of distance travelled, compared to 10% for rail and 77% for cars.

When looking at number of trips, bus 5%, rail 2%, car 61%.


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A large proportion of bus passengers are children (who don't get to vote) or concessionary passholders (who don't care what fares are payable) too. I'd further suggest that most farepayers would never vote Conservative, if they vote at all. If I was the Chancellor I'd have little concern about withdrawing funding for capped bus fares.

 

[johncrossley]

A large proportion of bus passengers are children (who don't get to vote) or concessionary passholders (who don't care what fares are payable) too. I'd further suggest that most farepayers would never vote Conservative, if they vote at all. If I was the Chancellor I'd have little concern about withdrawing funding for capped bus fares.

In addition, a huge proportion of those who actually pay and vote are in London, not affected by the scheme.

 

[158756]

How does the £2 price cap currently work on 'through' single fares from outside of West Yorkshire into West Yorkshire

For example if I were to catch the 36 bus from Harrogate to Leeds, in theory I should only be paying £2 once the service hits West Yorkshire but are the systems intelligent enough to work this out yet or would the driver have to work out the boundary stop and essentially issue two tickets?

I don't know if this was already the case before the £2 fare was introduced or if Transdev have changed the fares specifically to prevent this, but in this particular case it isn't worth doing because (if the fare table on bustimes.org is correct) a Harrogate to Harewood Bar (first stop in West Yorkshre) ticket costs exactly £2 less than the Harrogate - Leeds fare.

 

[johncrossley]

I don't know if this was already the case before the £2 fare was introduced or if Transdev have changed the fares specifically to prevent this, but in this particular case it isn't worth doing because (if the fare table on bustimes.org is correct) a Harrogate to Harewood Bar (first stop in West Yorkshre) ticket costs exactly £2 less than the Harrogate - Leeds fare.

Don't Transdev put fares on the website?

 

[Deerfold]

Don't Transdev put fares on the website?

No. Just day period tickets. I think the only one to have singles/returns is Flyer and then only for the whole route (though there is publicity in West Yorkshire for the £2 maximum fare).

 

[markymark2000]

if the fare table on bustimes.org is correct

The dataset got updated 21st Oct so I would hope that it is correct.

 

[johncrossley]

No. Just day period tickets. I think the only one to have singles/returns is Flyer and then only for the whole route (though there is publicity in West Yorkshire for the £2 maximum fare).

A bit disappointing for a firm that is supposed to be the 'bees knees'.

 

[317 forever]

The £2 price cap has proved quite useful so far within Greater Manchester, as you know in advance where you are with just how much any individual journey is likely to cost you.

Admittedly a handful of short journeys may be cheaper than £2. It did feel satisfying paying £2 for a journey on Friday that was already £2.60 when I moved here in 2008!

 

[johntea]

I found out today I can get a bus from / to Leeds from a stop literally a minute away from my house rather than a 10 minute walk to and from the rail station in town and save £2 compared to the return rail fare in the process (or £3.10 at peak time!)

Without the £2 fare in the back of my mind I would have probably never found that out

 

[geoffk]

Don't Transdev put fares on the website?

It's usually difficult to find out single fares without asking the driver and, by then, you're already pretty much committed to making the journey. If you approach the operator, you are sometimes told fares are "commercially confidential"!

 

[johncrossley]

It's usually difficult to find out single fares without asking the driver and, by then, you're already pretty much committed to making the journey. If you approach the operator, you are sometimes told fares are "commercially confidential"!

Why haven't operators been sanctioned for not publicising their fares?

 

[Adam Williams]

It's a BODS (Bus Open Data Service) requirement for operators to provide all basic and complex fares/ticket data by 7 January 2023. I would expect enforcement after this date from DfT

 

[johncrossley]

It's a BODS requirement for operators to provide all basic and complex fares/ticket data by 7 January 2023. I would expect enforcement after this date from DfT

Surely fares should have been publicised decades ago? Given how sophisticated the websites of the major groups are, putting fare tables online has been well within their technical capabilities.

 

[Adam Williams]

Surely fares should have been publicised decades ago? Given how sophisticated the websites of the major groups are, putting fare tables online has been well within their technical capabilities.

I definitely don't disagree! As much as rail tech has its problems, at least the fares are reasonably widely/openly available now (let's ignore Advances!) and have been for quite a while.

 

[northern506]

It's usually difficult to find out single fares without asking the driver and, by then, you're already pretty much committed to making the journey. If you approach the operator, you are sometimes told fares are "commercially confidential"!

Fares for Transdev and most operators can be found on bustimes.org - https://bustimes.org/fares/datasets/1568 for Transdev Lancashire.

An example, here are the adult single fares for the M1 - https://bustimes.org/fares/tariffs/2429988

 

[STINT47]

Where I live my local operator Trentbarton has had a fare finder function on their website for years. I really don't get why other operators don't have the same? In fact some seem to guard their fares like they're the launch codes for our nuclear submarines.

On the subject of the £2 fare cap there has been no news from Trentbarton as to weather they will be participating. I guess a big issue for them is that a lot of services are long distance with higher fares to reflect this, when compared to an inner city bus company like NCT.

Another issue is that some customers have already purchased saver cards that will cover the period in question, and for long distance commuters they're not cheap. If you had spent £1250 on a Trentbarton land annual saver, to make a daily commute you might not be to happy if for three of those months (a third of your validity) you could have been spending £4 a day.

Trentbarton also really push using their Mango app as it gets money in the accounts before passengers travel, gives them usage history and reduces cash purchases. If for three months their is a cap I can see Mango use falling away, nor what they will want.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.

 

[markymark2000]

Why haven't operators been sanctioned for not publicising their fares?

Because the Traffic Commissioners and associated staff can't be bothered to enforce BODs. I mean, look at how many non compliant operators there are. It's amazing

It's a BODS (Bus Open Data Service) requirement for operators to provide all basic and complex fares/ticket data by 7 January 2023. I would expect enforcement after this date from DfT

Singles were meant to be in for 1st January 2021. 'Complex fares' were described originally as returns, day tickets, multi operator tickets etc etc. Same for Timetables and AVL tracking which had the same or similar deadline.

Surely fares should have been publicised decades ago? Given how sophisticated the websites of the major groups are, putting fare tables online has been well within their technical capabilities.

For online, fares can be online but can also be hidden. Stagecoach for example you have to go through the journey planner to see their fares and even then, it won't show you a cheaper fare if the journey is longer (Gloucester to Chepstow, it only offers you the dayticket as it's sending you from Gloucester to Lyndey to then change onto the 24 as that is the faster journey rather than offering the direct Gloucester to Chepstow single fare on just the 24 which takes longer but will be cheaper.


As for getting fares onto open data. Going through the ticket machine supplier is just cost, after cost, after cost. You have the base price then what seems like 300 'addon subscriptions' and operators just can't afford to do it. The Govt site for creating the fares files is absolutely awful. You have to fill in fare stages, link every single stop to a fare state and then fill in the fare table. You do it once for Adult Single. You then have to go back to square 1 and do the same for Adult Single in the opposite direction. Go back to the start for Adult Return and so on, so forth. It's repetetive and you lose the will to live. No information gets saved so you are doing the same process 6 times for Adult and Child. Any other fare profile is another upto 3 times (so student fares). If anyone went to use it, you would think it was developed by an amateur. Not someone being paid a lot of money by the government. If the fares system saved more information (and saved the information so that you can change it in the future without having to redo everything when fares change), a lot more firms would have uploaded the fares data. It's just needlessly repetitive.

 

[johncrossley]

Because the Traffic Commissioners and associated staff can't be bothered to enforce BODs. I mean, look at how many non compliant operators there are. It's amazing

The point is, it should have been a regulation since 1986 and should have been strictly enforced since then. Printed timetables should have included a fare table or they could have had separate booklets containing all fares for all their services, maybe by area for large operators.

 

[mjc]

Fares for Transdev and most operators can be found on bustimes.org - https://bustimes.org/fares/datasets/1568 for Transdev Lancashire.

Thanks, didn’t know this data was there. How do you navigate to it? I’ve tried reverse engineering it but can’t quite follow it through.

 

[markymark2000]

Thanks, didn’t know this data was there. How do you navigate to it? I’ve tried reverse engineering it but can’t quite follow it through.

It's more of a hidden page for the developer to see the fares and check it all works. On some companies, the fares show on the route pages but this use is limited (see First Essex for example)

 

[ant_bingley]

You can also search for a service, then when you get to the page displaying the timetable, append /fares onto the URL, eg https://bustimes.org/services/614-buttershaw-shipley/fares

 

[Deerfold]

You can also search for a service, then when you get to the page displaying the timetable, append /fares onto the URL, eg https://bustimes.org/services/614-buttershaw-shipley/fares

Although they're clearly wrong, with singles up to £2.90 and returns over £4.50.

 

[markymark2000]

You can also search for a service, then when you get to the page displaying the timetable, append /fares onto the URL, eg https://bustimes.org/services/614-buttershaw-shipley/fares

Interesting. It was updated recently too. Suppose we can add First to the list of firms who don't care about their ops licence.